238 replies to this topic

[Cferre]

Lugh, on 20 May 2013 - 09:25 AM, said:

You are absolutely wrong JJs generate ~ 9% heat on any use whatsoever. This is easily accounted for with Double HS.

hammerreborn, on 20 May 2013 - 09:39 AM, said:

THEY DO. Have any of you people played this game?

Don't be naive. The heat is not even noticeable. No wonder i've never noticed it, hence my comment....

Edited by Cferre, 20 May 2013 - 09:46 AM.

[Roland]

Quote

Long range play won't come back post shake, because the maps are far too cluttered with junk to actually make it useful.

Eh, I dunno about that.

I suspect that you'll see lances with some mix of ranges. Some long range fire support, backing up short range infighting mechs.

And honestly, you're still gonna see groups who try to all snipe, they'll just be less effective.

Quote

Nah the terrible players will just switch to SSRM A1's and Atlas D-DC again, and keep their elo scores.

Ya, those are still pretty standard configs for terribad players once BAP counters ECM, and they can go back to the "hold down trigger for damage" streak cat.

Certainly on some maps, if you want to play at range, you should be able to do so.. but it'll require that you actually make some attempt to maneuver. i.e., a lot of folks who have never had to do that are gonna be SOL.

Overall.... things will change. And that's ok with me. Things were getting kinda stale.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Roland, on 20 May 2013 - 09:45 AM, said:

Eh, I dunno about that.

I suspect that you'll see lances with some mix of ranges. Some long range fire support, backing up short range infighting mechs.

And honestly, you're still gonna see groups who try to all snipe, they'll just be less effective.



Ya, those are still pretty standard configs for terribad players once BAP counters ECM, and they can go back to the "hold down trigger for damage" streak cat.

Certainly on some maps, if you want to play at range, you should be able to do so.. but it'll require that you actually make some attempt to maneuver. i.e., a lot of folks who have never had to do that are gonna be SOL.

Overall.... things will change. And that's ok with me. Things were getting kinda stale.

Aside from alpine, every other map is easy to engage close up, and don't forget im not saying long range is not possible, just that it won't be worth the investment compared to setting yourself out for close range.
Brawlers will be able to close range with very little to worry about.

A change to Jumpsniping is ok, needed (adding significant heat to jump jets is a better idea), removing it's viability on the other hand not so much.

Removing methods of play is never a good thing for any game, we are essentially rolling back pre highlander patch, and just applying a general nerf to 3D's.

[valkyrie]

Stone Profit, on 20 May 2013 - 09:18 AM, said:

Glad to know im all up in your head. Gives me satisfaction to know I own your mind.


I quoted and responded to the only part of your post that wasnt qq over not being able to poptart.
I also responded to the only interesting part.

If by "all up in your head" you mean I see your posts and go "oh look, it's -this- [REDACTED] again," then sure.

If it were up to your input on balance, this game would be stuck in the days of the XL300 Swaybacks and Streakcats. I stopped putting any value on your opinion a long time ago because of comments like the ones you've made ITT. Not all change is good, but you're at [REDACTED] levels of "everything is fine! PGI is great! MWO is perfect!" lunacy.

/rant

Edited by miSs, 20 May 2013 - 11:30 AM.
Ad Hominem

[Roland]

DV McKenna, on 20 May 2013 - 09:53 AM, said:

Aside from alpine, every other map is easy to engage close up, and don't forget im not saying long range is not possible, just that it won't be worth the investment compared to setting yourself out for close range.
Brawlers will be able to close range with very little to worry about.

I think that the utility in having some long range fighters will be that they can do some damage to infighters on the way in, thus making them easy prey to your lance's own infighters.

It'll just be less viable to run nothing besides snipers.

Although on maps like Caustic, Alpine, and Tourmaline, it's not hard to force a ranged fight.

[hammerreborn]

Cferre, on 20 May 2013 - 09:40 AM, said:

Don't be naive. The heat is not even noticeable. No wonder i've never noticed it, hence my comment....

I notice it everytime I jump, you not paying attention doesn't mean it's not there.

PPCs dont generate heat if I don't look at my heat bar!

[pencilboom]

Chavette, on 19 May 2013 - 10:01 AM, said:

RNG coming to a neighbourhood near you! Couple this with the current ballistic hit detection...

26:00
http://nogutsnogalaxy.net/ngng-72/

The bigger the mech, the more the shake. The longer the range, the more disruptive the same amount of shake.

The point of the heavy metal is the 5JJs. It doesn't have the hardpoint arsenal to make it an effective brawler, can't fit an AC20. It is a born sniper mech.

The purposed change is a two stab combo against the same chassis.


How I feel:

2, If for this reason my $38 investment gets blown to uselessness, I'll be pissed, and I mean really pissed.

so you bought the HM solely just for it's ability to jump snipe? what a shame..

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Roland, on 20 May 2013 - 10:08 AM, said:

I think that the utility in having some long range fighters will be that they can do some damage to infighters on the way in, thus making them easy prey to your lance's own infighters.

It'll just be less viable to run nothing besides snipers.

Although on maps like Caustic, Alpine, and Tourmaline, it's not hard to force a ranged fight.

Caustic is actually really easy to force a short range fight, but requires patience and a bit of discipline to pull off well. Alpine and Tourmaline range will get shots off, although cover is plentiful of Tourmaline.

Frozen City,Forest Colony,River City are brawler domain.

Normally im not a supporter of Mektek, but their new kickstarter for Heavy Gear with a focus towards E-sports might actually be appealing.

Edited by DV McKenna, 20 May 2013 - 10:15 AM.

[AlexEss]

strange, my gauss/3LL HM will not be affected by this at all... And i snipe like no bodys beesknees.

The fix to JJ's bring them more in to how they work in lore, but i have not kept up with the chatter.. Is this true shake or the same old shake as we have now. If it is not true shake it will not matter much as the current shake is just visual.. the aim stays as true as ever.

[Yankee77]

Chavette, on 19 May 2013 - 10:21 AM, said:

You miss the point, the stalkers are still gonna pop from the hill and pound you. Then you will be crying about that.

That's not even close to being the same.

The problem with poptarts is that they can use ANY piece of cover as a sniping position, INCLUDING dense urban areas originally designed to promote brawling.

Maps were meant to have clearly defined sniper positions that came with a high risk/reward, and sections with very dense cover promoting brawling. Poptarts get to completely ignore the former because their poptarting allows them to turn dense cover into sniping positions.

And, on a personal note, it's also completely silly.

But back to the Stalker:

The Stalker poking from behind cover is not that big a deal. It takes a white for a big slow stalker to move in an out of cover, plenty of opportunity to shoot back... and if the Stalker is in an actual good sniping position, it will be exposed to plenty of return fire.

And that's not even considering the upcoming boating fixes.

[Roland]

DV McKenna, on 20 May 2013 - 10:12 AM, said:

Caustic is actually really easy to force a short range fight, but requires patience and a bit of discipline to pull off well. Alpine and Tourmaline range will get shots off, although cover is plentiful of Tourmaline.

Frozen City,Forest Colony,River City are brawler domain.

Normally im not a supporter of Mektek, but their new kickstarter for Heavy Gear with a focus towards E-sports might actually be appealing.

Like I said, I don't really mind changing things up. I like playing pretty much every mech in the game, and enjoy fighting at various ranges.

Ultimately, regardless of what happens, terrible players are gonna be terrible, and find something to complain about to justify why they always lose.

[Cferre]

hammerreborn, on 20 May 2013 - 10:09 AM, said:

I notice it everytime I jump, you not paying attention doesn't mean it's not there.

PPCs dont generate heat if I don't look at my heat bar!

Aww, that's cute. Still not getting it, huh.

[Edustaja]

DV McKenna, on 20 May 2013 - 09:53 AM, said:

Aside from alpine, every other map is easy to engage close up, and don't forget im not saying long range is not possible, just that it won't be worth the investment compared to setting yourself out for close range.
Brawlers will be able to close range with very little to worry about.

A change to Jumpsniping is ok, needed (adding significant heat to jump jets is a better idea), removing it's viability on the other hand not so much.

Removing methods of play is never a good thing for any game, we are essentially rolling back pre highlander patch, and just applying a general nerf to 3D's.

I agree on you that removing methods of play is bad. The changes in the meta have most of the time been between the extremes. I don't know if this is on purpose or not. If we think about all the different metas we've been through (all brawling all the time, lrm hell, jumpsniping) it's easy to see that a closer balance is attainable.

I'd like PGI to have tools to work more slowly towards the middle from the extremes. If all tactics from short range brawling, lrm support or jumpsniping were viable but different it would make for a great game. Extra credits talks about this game play design as "perfect imbalance".



Extra credits should be mandatory "reading" when you're going to comment on game desing.
Great concepts and insight.

Edit: This is excellent too: The idea of an effect you use be also interesting on the guy it's being used on.

So pretty much not like ECM has been handled

Edited by Edustaja, 20 May 2013 - 11:02 AM.

[Wintersdark]

Lugh, on 20 May 2013 - 09:25 AM, said:

If you are getting one shot by 30-40pt alpha strikes you have far too little armor on your fragile hide.

That alpha should merely be exposing the core under the armor if you've done it right.

At no point did I complain that I was getting one shot - this isn't a "Woe is me! Everything is broken because I'm losing!" post.

No. It's pretty easy to one-shot people in any mech with a 35+pt alpha. Not 30, of course - but you plant your alpha in their face and they die, regardless of mech. This is why I run my Heavy Metal with gauss/2erppc/lots of DHS instead of a 732 with gauss+3PPC. I can fire more, and I'm looking for cockpit shots. If I miss the cockpit, I hit the CT, which isn't wasted. Arm mounted gauss and ERPPC's give the precision necessary to do that.

Doesn't matter how much armor you have on your Fragile Little Hide.

[Wintersdark]

Edustaja, on 20 May 2013 - 10:20 AM, said:

I agree on you that removing methods of play is bad. The changes in the meta have most of the time been between the extremes. I don't know if this is on purpose or not. If we think about all the different metas we've been through (all brawling all the time, lrm hell, jumpsniping) it's easy to see that a closer balance is attainable.

I'd like PGI to have tools to work more slowly towards the middle from the extremes. If all tactics from short range brawling, lrm support or jumpsniping were viable but different it would make for a great game. Extra credits talks about this game play design as "perfect imbalance".

Extra credits should be mandatory "reading" when you're going to comment on game desing.
Great concepts and insight.

While that's ideal, it's far harder to achieve than most players like to believe (Oh! If they'd just listen to me and make [this] change, everything would be perfect!). The reality is that if there is even a perceived advantage to a particular gameplay style, the vast bulk of players will gravitate to it. If there is an actual advantage, even if very minor, players will rush there in droves. It's extremely difficult - perhaps even impossible - to get that "perfect imbalance" you want.

That's the goal, and you always work towards it, but the reality is the meta will always shift fairly dramatically with even tiny, tiny balance changes. It's human nature.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

valkyrie, on 20 May 2013 - 10:03 AM, said:

If by "all up in your head" you mean I see your posts and go "oh look, it's -this- [REDACTED] again," then sure.

If it were up to your input on balance, this game would be stuck in the days of the XL300 Swaybacks and Streakcats. I stopped putting any value on your opinion a long time ago because of comments like the ones you've made ITT. Not all change is good, but you're at [REDACTED] levels of "everything is fine! PGI is great! MWO is perfect!" lunacy.

/rant

Just put him on ignore and stop quoting him so I don't have to read his stuff. Makes things much easier.

Edited by miSs, 20 May 2013 - 11:30 AM.
Quote clean up

[Chavette]

Cferre, on 20 May 2013 - 09:40 AM, said:

Don't be naive. The heat is not even noticeable. No wonder i've never noticed it, hence my comment....

Its about 3-3.5%, you add the heat from 100% throttle, and its around 7%... but you're right its not really an issue.

[Infernus1986]

Chavette, on 19 May 2013 - 10:01 AM, said:

RNG coming to a neighbourhood near you! Couple this with the current ballistic hit detection...

26:00
http://nogutsnogalaxy.net/ngng-72/

The bigger the mech, the more the shake. The longer the range, the more disruptive the same amount of shake.

The point of the heavy metal is the 5JJs. It doesn't have the hardpoint arsenal to make it an effective brawler, can't fit an AC20. It is a born sniper mech.

The purposed change is a two stab combo against the same chassis.
..........................

Your turn to have the game meta flipped at your expense like everyone not running PPC boats and poptarts
enjoy having a mech bay full of useless builds.

This is the price you pay when you invest heavily in Flavor Of The Months's builds in a BETA

[Stone Profit]

valkyrie, on 20 May 2013 - 10:03 AM, said:

If by "all up in your head" you mean I see your posts and go "oh look, it's -this- [REDACTED] again," then sure.

If it were up to your input on balance, this game would be stuck in the days of the XL300 Swaybacks and Streakcats. I stopped putting any value on your opinion a long time ago because of comments like the ones you've made ITT. Not all change is good, but you're at [REDACTED] levels of "everything is fine! PGI is great! MWO is perfect!" lunacy.

/rant

Where are you geting the "info" youre basing your rediculous assumptions on? I have never advocated streakcats, nor slhunchies, nor poptarts. In fact I have been quite vocal in opposition to all of these. But from your little world it seems its okay to make things up so that you can continue to ignore well thought out reasonable opinions.

[Mason Grimm]

Just a nice holiday (if you are Canadian) reminder that we are all passionate about our particular brand of Mech stomping goodness. Let us not go calling people names just because we disagree with their opinions.

Trolling does only one thing; land you in hot water with Grimm and since the bosses are away, no time and a half for them, they have left me alone in the office with the Big Red Button (and several other ones of which I have no idea what they do)