324 replies to this topic

[Kmieciu]

pow pow, on 21 May 2013 - 12:10 AM, said:

hey, I got a question.

Considering this is a (very) little apm game, what is this "skill" you are referring to?

I always considered mwo to be hard to get into but easy to master (the exact opposite of most other mp games). Anyone care to explain why this isn't true?

It depends how you define "mastering" a game. I've been here since the patch they introduced the Commando, and I can't say I've "mastered" the game. And when playing against Steel Jaguars of Russian Jade Falcons I still see a large disparity in both team coordination and individual skill between the top players and myself.

[MustrumRidcully]

TheMagician, on 20 May 2013 - 12:48 PM, said:

The people who win now, are the same people who were winning when it was all about Large lasers, gauss, SRMs, AC20, and medium lasers. People were saying back then 'the people who gauss boat are going to start whining when they are losing'. Nope. They keep winning, because they keep working hard and finding ways to win.

A fundamental truth. The people that find the OP builds will always find the next one. They are the reason why the game designers have to keep up-to-date and really get their job done well - there will always be some builds that are better than others, the min/maxers will find them, and it's up to the game designer to minimize the margins between the FOTM and "normal" builds...

[pow pow]

Thanks for the answers.

I indeed consider skill in video games to be:

1) accuracy of putting crossair to a pixel and
2) ability to make or alter decisions fast.

and as much as I try to put my mind around it. MWO is pretty easy on both counts.

IE: you got a lot of time of to put your crossair to the right pixel and whatever action/decision you have to take, take a while to come around.

[MustrumRidcully]

Jaguar Prime, on 20 May 2013 - 04:43 PM, said:

It kill's me every time I see someone say how easy it is to jumpsnipe. Then they describe the playstyle of a beginner. If it is so easymode, why don't you play one to a higher elo bracket? Trust me, the crap poptarts do and get away with in your bracket will get them killed early and fast at the higher elo brackets.

Just because you're a good player doesn't mean you don't take the easy way. A good player tries to find the best strategy, and if something works, that means it at least fufills the basic requirements for a good strategy.
Easy is good. The more complex and complicated your build or your strategy is to handle, the more error prone it is, and part of being good is also knowing that you're not perfect and will make mistakes - better use an effective tactic that can minimize errors.

OneEyed Jack, on 20 May 2013 - 04:00 PM, said:

On topic, I'm of two minds. On one hand I think the whole thing is ridiculous. It's pathetic that anyone, let alone PGI, thinks it's necessary to make game changes because it's "imbalanced" that people can't charge across an open field like a bunch of window-lickers, and taking a few steps to the side and using cover is too hard and an "adjustment they shouldn't have to make."

Your mistake is believing that poptarters rely on stupid players running throug open terrain. They work even if people try to use cover, because there will always be situations where you are not - and if only to figure out where these damn snipers are hiding. And a good sniper obviously tries to position himself so that the enemy has to leave cover to get to him, especially if you have multiple poptarters and snipers in the team that can guard different firing angles.

[Lyoto Machida]

CapperDeluxe, on 20 May 2013 - 06:53 AM, said:

Jump jet reticle shake will not kill poptarting outright you know. It will make it a bit more difficult and more open to retaliation, and that alone may cause some to not partake anymore. But it will still be a valid tactic and deadly in the right hands. Win-win.


See here for a sample of what it could be like from MWLL

Man...Living Legends looked fun. Wished I had played that while it was around.

[MustrumRidcully]

pow pow, on 21 May 2013 - 12:58 AM, said:

Thanks for the answers.

I indeed consider skill in video games to be:

1) accuracy of putting crossair to a pixel and
2) ability to make or alter decisions fast.

and as much as I try to put my mind around it. MWO is pretty easy on both counts.

IE: you got a lot of time of to put your crossair to the right pixel and whatever action/decision you have to take, take a while to come around.

Well, I can safely say that I can manage to fail on both accounts.

"Hey, Mustrum, how did you end up in the middile of the enemy team again and be shot by everyone at once agan? Guess you didn't know how to change course when you the enemy team"

"Hey Mustrum, why did you just shoot two Dual AC/20 shot at 200m above the enemies head?"

But then, I manage to occassionally cut myself when shaving, so I am pretty bad at everything.

There is skill to aiming, I think, even if it involves only a mouse and no RNGs or shake effects to consider.
But that doesn't make all examples of skill equally "balanced". There might be skill to poptarting, but how much skill is required to "beat" poptarting? Most of the skills a poptarter needs are also needed for a non-poptarting sniper - aiming on the move at a moving target? Everyone need that, including the regular non-jump-jet-capable sniper. Sure, you can drive your sniper boat out of cover, stand still, take careful aim, and shoot. But that means you're exposed for an extended amount of time. If poptarters thought this was a good idea, they'd jump onto a building or hill and shoot from there, and then jump back down.

[Vassago Rain]

Lyoto Machida, on 21 May 2013 - 01:18 AM, said:

Man...Living Legends looked fun. Wished I had played that while it was around.

It's still around. Hasn't had players in years.

[MrZakalwe]

SickerthanSars, on 20 May 2013 - 11:44 PM, said:

I'd point out it was you who first was fixated on me, claiming I was upset by the patch..when I am not... or where I was claiming a superior level of skill when I had done no such thing. Im not sure what to make of this elevated status you have in regards to my mwo skills but thank you.

As from your previous posts you are probably running low I'll help you out with an aid shipment of fullstops.
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Those should keep you going for a while.

[Sam Slade]

pow pow, on 21 May 2013 - 12:10 AM, said:

hey, I got a question.

Considering this is a (very) little apm game, what is this "skill" you are referring to?

Putting 'Actions Per Minute' on par with skill is a RTS game error. Further, the APM equals skill argument is a bit flat as far as arguments go as you are asserting that any learned behaviour is mastered if you do it fast enough(bonsai tree makers want a word).

The most skillful players I have seen in MWO are those who know when, where and how to achieve the best posible responses from their enemy and team mates in order to assure victory; often times thses players end the game with few kills, assists or damage bonuss but can undoubtedly claim the win as theirs; cunning and quick wits beat super-clicky in the skill department.

Edited by Sam Slade, 21 May 2013 - 01:46 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

Sam Slade, on 21 May 2013 - 01:45 AM, said:

Putting 'Actions Per Minute' on par with skill is a RTS game error. Further, the APM equals skill argument is a bit flat as far as arguments go as you are asserting that any learned behaviour is mastered if you do it fast enough(bonsai tree makers want a word).

There are many measures or components for skill. I think APM can be part of that.

Quote

The most skillful players I have seen in MWO are those who know when, where and how to achieve the best posible responses from their enemy and team mates in order to assure victory; often times thses players end the game with few kills, assists or damage bonuss but can undoubtedly claim the win as theirs; cunning and quick wits beat super-clicky in the skill department.

A general thing on that topic:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OODA_loop

[Jaguar Prime]

Maybe it's me but most of the folks I see complaining about poptarts are primarily brawlers. With more large maps coming, I feel that the complaining will only get worse. As long as there are weapons that can shoot farther than missile range and can stack for high alphas (ERPPC's) Short range players will complain. When I think about it, it was close range players that were complaining the most about missiles...... Anyone else pick up on this?



for the record, I was jumpsniping before the change to jumpjets, the change to ppc/erppc heat and the change to missiles. I will continue to after this change. Unlike most of the complainers, I can do more than one style of play. I play all 4 weight classes short and long range..........

[pow pow]

Sam Slade, on 21 May 2013 - 01:45 AM, said:

Putting 'Actions Per Minute' on par with skill is a RTS game error. Further, the APM equals skill argument is a bit flat as far as arguments go as you are asserting that any learned behaviour is mastered if you do it fast enough(bonsai tree makers want a word).

The most skillful players I have seen in MWO are those who know when, where and how to achieve the best posible responses from their enemy and team mates in order to assure victory; often times thses players end the game with few kills, assists or damage bonuss but can undoubtedly claim the win as theirs; cunning and quick wits beat super-clicky in the skill department.

If i can put my reticule on your pixels faster and pull the trigger faster than you, doesn't that mean I got more (aiming?) skill than you?

I see your point about team and enemy responses but to me that relates more to strategy than actual skill.

Furthermore, check the video below with two of the best fps players on the net today (cooler has been no.1 or 2 since the 90s).
Can you see they have a massive apm and much more hightened decision making than any of the top MWO players?
http://pwnoogle.com/...hBcX&c=baseqz#!

Lets not hide behind our finger here, people are talking about skill, but in all honesty, mwo is one of the most forgiving games out there if your fps skills are lacking.

[z3a1ot]

It is kinda logical when you push 90 or 70 ton beast up in the air with trusters that you should not have a smooth ride up. I welcome this change and i use Catapracht 3D as poptart (with Large Lasers, not PPCs) from the day it became available.

I cant help it but i feel like this from all the crying about the upcoming change/nerf to JJ

[Shadowsword8]

AFAIK, "skill" can be mesured with:

- Weapon hit ratio: aiming skill. No need to explain that one.


- For slow mechs, How many times you die from back damage: situational awareness skill. A player with good situationnal awareness and map knowledge will rarely take shots from the back. Because he keep track of the probable and confirmed enemy and allied positions, and position himself accordingly. Such a player can afford to have very little back armor to increase his front armor, and will still die almost exclusively from the front.


- How often you lose to capping: teamwork skill. A Selfish player will never try to prevent a cap or countercap. Those actions require to give up some of the fun to save the team, and that mindset is the foundation of teamwork.

[IceSerpent]

Novakaine, on 20 May 2013 - 07:07 AM, said:

As much as I hate poptarts I agree with ya.
Ppc's were never the problem, ppc's and jump jets are.
Ask any astronaut strapped to a Saturn V rocket.

If I did that, they probably would look at me funny and ask what the heck does Saturn V has to do with venting plasma from a fusion reactor in a fictional universe.

[Joseph Mallan]

Lyoto Machida, on 21 May 2013 - 01:18 AM, said:

Man...Living Legends looked fun. Wished I had played that while it was around.

You know what else looked good? The horizon! How the heck could they make the environment so clear and we have "haze" at long distance on so many maps???

[Kyone Akashi]

Jaguar Prime, on 21 May 2013 - 02:54 AM, said:

for the record, I was jumpsniping before the change to jumpjets, the change to ppc/erppc heat and the change to missiles. I will continue to after this change. Unlike most of the complainers, I can do more than one style of play. I play all 4 weight classes short and long range..........

I like to believe that most people here would be capable of more than one style of play, but most focus on an area they find particularly enjoyable. Either because they're very good at it, or because it's so cool to them. Then, when something gets retroactively introduced that ruins this gameplay experience, people get sad and/or angry, as it's just not "what they signed up for" and they feel their experience ruined. Even if they switch to another playstyle, it's a forced switch, and they may not enjoy it as much. Some may even stop to play altogether because they are that angry.

I was utterly dedicated to the Jenner until 3L's and 2D's scared me away from it. I was in luck, however, because I found the Centurions I drive now to be rather amazing and I fell in love with my PPC. But now we got this.
I suppose I could just switch back to my JR7-K, but what I'm trying to say is that people get used to the game being played a certain way, and may not enjoy having to "find their place" anew every second month, sacrificing what they feel was a guarantee for fun (what they opted to play without the pressure of a change in the rules) in the process.

Edited by Kyone Akashi, 21 May 2013 - 07:42 AM.

[Scromboid]

Jaguar Prime, on 21 May 2013 - 02:54 AM, said:

Maybe it's me but most of the folks I see complaining about poptarts are primarily brawlers. With more large maps coming, I feel that the complaining will only get worse. As long as there are weapons that can shoot farther than missile range and can stack for high alphas (ERPPC's) Short range players will complain. When I think about it, it was close range players that were complaining the most about missiles...... Anyone else pick up on this?

for the record, I was jumpsniping before the change to jumpjets, the change to ppc/erppc heat and the change to missiles. I will continue to after this change. Unlike most of the complainers, I can do more than one style of play. I play all 4 weight classes short and long range..........

I don't see it that way at all.

I'm not necessarily a brawler, but when you can take a 90 ton machine, hide it behind a hill and bounce it up and down shooting off a perfectly stable platform with no risk at all to yourself AND still take the brunt of a brawler and wreck it should one actually find you and close the gap, there is a game balance problem.

It doesn't even make sense physically that you can take off, gain perfect aiming balance and land without there being some sort of interference. Hell, I'm still learning to stand and shoot at the 50yard range and you are talking about being strapped into a huge machine, using the equivalent of rockets to shoot it violently in the air then shutting them off instantly while your machine defies gravity and gains a perfectly steady and stable line of fire? Don't think about the fact there would be no 'arc' as we see it now. You are fighting gravit when you jump. When you stop jumping, you fall IMMEDIATELY.

Also, think about the G forces on the pilot, both up and down. First, we're slammed into our seats as overheated plasma is violently ejected from a few ports in our robots rear end. The amount of force to get you off the ground is going to affect the pilot. There's no aiming going on there. There's "oh man, zoom in... a few millimeters to the left... oh look at that pretty flower on the hill behind him... hmm". It's all "AHHHHHHHHHHH!!! I FEEL LIKE AM BEING CRUSHED!!!!! I HOPE THIS !@#$ER DOESN'T EXPLODE!!!"

Then, when you fall. It's not "Oohh... peace. So tranquil and quiet. What a solid, still shot I can get from up here. I should do this over and over." It's.... "FUUUUUU!! I'm going STRAIGHT DOWN being tugged by a MASSIVE WEIGHT and my stomach is in my THROAT! I hope I can land properly because my BALANCE IS AFFECTED by the PLASMA STREAMS pushing me at UNEVEN ANGLES off the planet." You guys ever been on a friggin drop car ride at an amusement park where they strap you into an elevator, lug you up 5 stories and then open a hatch where you just fall down? Yeah, imagine that, but HIGHER and in a HEAVIER vehicle that you have to BALANCE with your MIND.

I just don't see the complaints, guys. It's clearly a game balance issue with a little nod towards reality is all. Now all the poptarters will have to learn how to really use cover and maybe, just maybe, l2p period.

(2 periods there for double emphasis)

[Joseph Mallan]

Kyone Akashi, on 21 May 2013 - 07:24 AM, said:

I like to believe that most people here would be capable of more than one style of play, but most focus on an area they find particularly enjoyable. Either because they're very good at it, or because it's so cool to them. Then, when something gets retroactively introduced that ruins this gameplay experience, people get sad and/or angry, as it's just not "what they signed up for" and they feel their experience ruined. Even if they switch to another playstyle, it's a forced switch, and they may not enjoy it as much. Some may even stop to play altogether because they are that angry.

I was utterly dedicated to the Jenner until 3L's and 2D's scared me away from it. I was in luck, however, because I found the Centurions I drive now to be rather amazing and I fell in love with my PPC. But now we got this.
I suppose I could just switch back to my JR7-K, but what I'm trying to say is that people get used to the game being played a certain way, and may not enjoy having to "find their place" anew every second month, sacrificing what they feel was a guarantee for fun (what they opted to play without the pressure of a change in the rules) in the process.

I would like to also Kyone, But to my reading you have the Brawls an the Brawl-nots. With a few players in between who will use either strategy when appropriate.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 21 May 2013 - 07:33 AM.

[ElLocoMarko]

I found the podcast in which crosshair shake was mentioned. No Guts No Galaxy podcast #72 at 26:00. A snippet of the conversation...

Shawn: … Jump Jets, do you have something specific to talk about?

Omid (Lead Gameplay Engineer - PGI): “Yeah, we’ve kinda noticed there has been this trend in the meta game of people using jump jets and ballistic or energy weapon boats. So we are planning to add jump jet shake. For sure. Yea.. I’m reading some of the comments. Trend, It is a bit of a trend (nervous laugh).

Omid : So, we are adding some jump jet shake. It is going to vary depending on the chassis so presumably light mechs won't be affected as much as heavy mechs. It is going to shake the crosshair and also throw off your aim. So it is going to make it a lot harder to basically snipe with those weapons.

Shawn: So it is basically trying to negate the fact that pop-tarting in general is not a valid tactic that the game design is meant to be.

Omid: Yeah we are following in the footsteps of a lot of previous mechwarrior games , it seems. But yeah. For sure.

Edited by ElLocoMarko, 21 May 2013 - 09:35 AM.