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Weapon Tweaks Are Not The Issue. Customization Abuse Is.


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#1 Acid Phase

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 05:34 AM

PGI has since closed beta "fixed" just about every weapon. Tweaking this, tweaking that. All it has achieved is that freedom of customization has been thoroughly abused. I can't believe the fanboyism defending what PGI releases. Calling this game ok to play. No. It is not ok. Every weapon "fix" is the search to see what weapon/mech become the new FoTM. It's ridiculous. We all know what is the real balance of weapons, but the devs have not addressed it. Hardpoint restrictions. The problem is too much freedom of customization. I keep saying that the apparent fix to boating where it shouldn't be boating is hardpoint restrictions. Fixes outrageous builds and fixes boating. Done. Those who are meant to boat will boat as they should, but other ridiculous builds will be kept from doing so.

Quote

(@AC1DPHA5E) tweeted at 4:18 PM EST on Tue, May 21,2013:

"@russ_bullock Bryan won't answer. I'll try asking you. Weapon balance fix is hardpoint size restrictions. Why are you guys against it?"



Quote

(@russ_bullock) tweeted at 6:06 PM EST on Tue, May 21,2013:

"@AC1DPHA5E were not against it, it's been discussed"



Funny. I've been on every hard point restriction topic. Don't see any dev discussing it.

Quote

(@AC1DPHA5E) tweeted at 7:47 PM EST on Tue, May 21,2013:

"@russ_bullock What was the outcome of that discussion? It will be the only balance to a boat ridden MWO. Which btw, LRMs are FoTM now."



Now I've been waiting to know wether they are going to balance weapons this way, or do we have to endure more ridiculous builds thanks to customization abuse. In which case, I'll just move on not looking forward to the future of MWO. Sad to know I've built my rig just for MWO. Looks like I'm sh*t out of luck.

#2 Sheraf

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 05:45 AM

The problem is not customization. People complain at everything that is.

#3 Ransack

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 06:11 AM

So, if they implement hard-point restrictions now, how in the world will they ever be able to implement the Clans with their Omnimechs? They need to allow a certain degree of customization because as the are, the stock mechs suck donkey ballz.

I think that Paul's heat idea is a step in the right direction.

#4 Acid Phase

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 06:17 AM

View PostRansack, on 22 May 2013 - 06:11 AM, said:

So, if they implement hard-point restrictions now, how in the world will they ever be able to implement the Clans with their Omnimechs?



I figure they can just allow an "omni-hardpoint size" dedicated to that particular slot.

Edited by Acid Phase, 22 May 2013 - 06:17 AM.


#5 Vodrin Thales

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 06:19 AM

View PostAcid Phase, on 22 May 2013 - 05:34 AM, said:

PGI has since closed beta "fixed" just about every weapon. Tweaking this, tweaking that. All it has achieved is that freedom of customization has been thoroughly abused. I can't believe the fanboyism defending what PGI releases. Calling this game ok to play. No. It is not ok. Every weapon "fix" is the search to see what weapon/mech become the new FoTM. It's ridiculous. We all know what is the real balance of weapons, but the devs have not addressed it. Hardpoint restrictions. The problem is too much freedom of customization. I keep saying that the apparent fix to boating where it shouldn't be boating is hardpoint restrictions. Fixes outrageous builds and fixes boating. Done. Those who are meant to boat will boat as they should, but other ridiculous builds will be kept from doing so.





Funny. I've been on every hard point restriction topic. Don't see any dev discussing it.



Now I've been waiting to know wether they are going to balance weapons this way, or do we have to endure more ridiculous builds thanks to customization abuse. In which case, I'll just move on not looking forward to the future of MWO. Sad to know I've built my rig just for MWO. Looks like I'm sh*t out of luck.


This is just completely wrong and bad. If you want to limit boating use heat generation and weapon tonnage to do it. Weapons should be too heavy (with ammo) or generate too much heat (in the case of energy weapons) to make stacking too many of any one powerful weapon practical.

Limiting builds is a bad idea as one of this games big selling points to the more casual player is the ability to build a custom mech. Limiting builds artificially will reduce the games appeal. It needs to be done with weapon balancing.

#6 Zyllos

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 06:21 AM

Lenient hardpoint restrictions are not the whole problem, but part of a grander range of issues that leads to the current game's swingyness.

Pin Point Convergence
Hardpoint Restrictions
Heat Scale/Dissipation
Weapon RoF/Damage/Heat/Ammo
SHS/DHS imbalances (both SHS vs DHS and inside vs outside DHS)
Tonnage Restrictions

All of these have to be changed at the same time to get balance to where it needs to be. To have each mech be unique and provide a special function. To not have specific weapons completely outclass other weapon systems. To have balance between choosing to have a slow mech and a fast mech within all weight classes (even Lights).

View PostRansack, on 22 May 2013 - 06:11 AM, said:

So, if they implement hard-point restrictions now, how in the world will they ever be able to implement the Clans with their Omnimechs? They need to allow a certain degree of customization because as the are, the stock mechs suck donkey ballz.

I think that Paul's heat idea is a step in the right direction.


Really...?

Maybe have...uhh...Omni hardpoints that allows all types to be equipped, like the name suggests?

#7 Jestun

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 06:23 AM

As per all the other replies so far, wrong.

#8 Megalosauroid

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 06:29 AM

If they add hardpoint restrictions you're just going to cut down the number of overpowered chassis from a handful of varied ones to one from each weightclass. Then we can all play in the one light/heavy/assault mech with decent hardpoints and ignore the rest. How is that a solution.

#9 FunkyFritter

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 06:38 AM

That doesn't make any sense. If every weapon was equally good there wouldn't be a huge disparity between mixed loadouts and boats. Nobody complains about 9 sl hunchbacks or 3 ppc jenners. Customization is only an issue when certain options are noticeably more efficient than average.

#10 Acid Phase

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 07:13 AM

Well then, let me bring you up to speed on what has been thought out. Which in my opinion make complete sense.

View PostHomeless Bill, on 12 November 2012 - 12:35 PM, said:


I posted this in another hardpoint size thread, but it pretty much says it all. Homeless Bill's thoughts, now with bold and underline:


It's becoming clearer and clearer how much this is needed to prevent ridiculous boating. The Stalker was never meant to mount PPCs, the K2 was never meant to boat ballistics, etc., and the result is that a lot of 'mechs are becoming redundant. It's not bad. Not yet. But with as few 'mechs as we have now and as many will eventually be released, it's going to get worse quickly.

Why can a Raven mount the same AC/20 that a Hunchback can, but it doesn't have a huge hardpoint that everyone shoots for first? It's blatantly unfair to allow 'mechs to have all the advantages of large hardpoints with none of the drawbacks. The larger gun models are not enough - and even if they were, PGI plans to ramp up 'mech releases (plus, the Clans are coming eventually); how are they going to keep selling 'mechs if much of a chassis' uniqueness is diluted by redundancy?

I love all the Awesomes, and I run them whenever I'm not grinding. But they have a couple very niche roles they can shine in, whereas the Stalker is largely superior in most other respects. And it largely comes down to the lack of hardpoint sizes.

At first, the lack of limitations was good for diversity. Now, the more 'mechs they release, the worse things are going to get.

I would like to just note that this won't fix all boating perfectly. Canon boats like the A1, Jager, and this ******* monstrosity would still be able to do their thing to an extent. I think the developers should stay away from those 'mechs as much as possible.

For the canon boats we have, hardpoint size restrictions will go a long way towards solving the problem. Size restrictions on the A1 and Jagermechs would bring them back into the realm of effective without being cheesy (I speak of the A1 assuming that missiles will again one day not be ****).

3rdworld makes some good points for the opposing side, so I felt the need to respond:


QUOTE:

"Hardpoint sizes just shift the meta to mechs that come stock with larger weapons. It will destroy customization.

Example with size based hardpoints, the most customization you could do to an Atlas would be putting a Gauss in for a AC/20. That is about it.

...

...because I could not swap the LRMs for SRM or vice versa.

With the Atlas D, I could put MPLs for MLs, or Gauss for Ac/20. That is about the most customization I could do. This defeats the entire premise of Mechwarrior.

AS7-D:
RA: 1 Energy
RT: 1 Large Ballistic, 1 Ballistic
CT: 2 Energy
LT: 1 Large LRM, 1 Large SRM
LA: 1 Energy"

/QUOTE


To an extent, 'mechs with larger hardpoints would be more valuable for certain builds. But that's exactly how it should be. The Hunchback should get the privilege of mounting a big cannon because it has a huge ******* right torso.

Not everything should be able to boat PPCs. Not everything should be able to boat large ballistics. The more 'mechs they pump out, the more the builds will all look the same. More and more chassis will be made obsolete. Just look at the Awesome; I run them as my primary 'mech, but its shining capability (PPC hardpoints) is overshadowed by just about every other assault with energy hardpoints.

About your Atlas-D example. First, I'm not in favor of limiting LRM/SRM swaps (that would be terrible). Second, I don't think stock weapons should necessarily determine hardpoint size; that should be up to the developers. For instance on the Atlas-D, the arm hardpoints would be 2-slot-capable. Third, I'm also not in favor of limiting down-sizing.

I'm thinking something more like this:
RA: 1 2-Slot Energy
RT: 1 Extra Large Ballistic, 1 Medum Ballistic
CT: 2 1-Slot Energy
LT: 2 Large Missiles
LA: 1 2-Slot Energy

The Atlas would frankly barely be affected. No PPCs, no LL in the CT, no 2xLBX-10s (</3), but everything else would work like it does now. The things most hard-hit currently would be most PPC boats. The K2 and certain LRM boats would have taken a hit (though PPC K2s would be back in force like they should be), but I don't see them around much anymore.

And just in case I gave the wrong impression, this isn't about me being all jelly that I don't get to be special with PPCs in my Awesome. I don't run PPCs in any of my Awesomes. I just hate to see my baby get the short end of the stick, and I hate to see the metagame polluted with cheese weapons because everyone can mount them =[

The only 'mechs that should be capable of mounting large weaponry are the ones that are slow and easy-to-escape and the ones screaming "shoot my big-*** weapon hardpoint."


Here's a visual. Exactly what I'm trying to point out. The variants can be customizable, it just won't get carried away.

View PostFunky Bacon, on 19 May 2013 - 02:23 AM, said:

I can post this again, where I have an Atlas based on the MW:4 Atlas (modified to fit into the MWO model). So it's basically not a real variant, but it's used to better preview a potential HP system that mixes both MW:4 and MWO's system.

Posted Image

Edited by Acid Phase, 22 May 2013 - 08:21 PM.


#11 Acid Phase

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 07:26 AM

More thoughts and makes more sense.

View PostTorquemada, on 01 March 2013 - 04:20 AM, said:

Hollander 35t can mount large ballistic weapons due to its specialist chassis that has to compromise on many common light mech features, Raven 35t shouldn't be able to mount large ballistic weapons, but currently does in MWO, where does it put them? These two images explain the sort of situation I want to see able to be addressed by adding the suggested feature:

Posted ImagePosted Image

Please note, this is a suggestion for how to balance hard point use, it is not advocating that every single hard point in every Mech must be restricted, merely asking if this is a suitable option to add a second layer of balancing for PGI to implement to enable some hard points to be restricted if needed.

*Edit 2* Alternative system to hard point size (slot number) restrictions for a given hard point would be maximum tonnage, have added a second part to the poll to find out which would be the preferred option as a means of balancing Mech builds for a specific hard point. You must 'delete vote' to be able to vote in the second poll (and re-vote in the first).

*Edit* Updated with poll as requested for new suggestion guidelines.

As a solution to the 'insane' and 'cheese' builds commonly referred to, perhaps combining the current hardpoint system with a maximum capacity system (similar to that used in MW4) for some slots is the solution?

To give a couple of examples:

A Commando 2D is currently capable of using 2 energy weapons in its right arm. As it stands this means you can even cram an ERPPC into a tiny Commando.... Using the alternative system I propose you still have the 2 energy hard points for the right arm, but you combine it with a maximum slots being available. There are two ways to do this, either a) a total space allocation available e.g. of 2 slots (which will prevent ERPPC's being installed) or b ) allocated 1 slot per energy point for this chassis (thus limiting energy installation to light and medium lasers only) or 2 slots enabling large lasers also to be fitted, or one hard point with 2 slots and one hardpoint with 1 slot, enabling one to mount up to a single large laser, the other restricted to medium or small.

The Stalker 3F enables a 6 PPC/ERPPC Stalker, or 'cheese' build. Now this is because it has 6 energy hardpoints, located in 2x LA, 2 x RA, LT and RT. Each location has more than six slots available so can be crammed full of ERPPC's. If my suggested system was introduced this could be restricted by also allocating a maximum capacity for one or more hardpoints. Perhaps allow up to 4 in each arm, therefore limited the Mech to a maximum of 2 x PPC's in total for arms, and e.g. 3 in the left torso (allowing for a third PPC) and only 1 slot for the right torso (maximum medium lasers). This would immediately limited the build to 3 ERPPC's and then either medium/small in all other hard points. Alternatively the same build could use up to five large lasers, two per arm and 1 in left torso.

I've had crazy builds myself, one of my favourites was my AC20 Raven 2x... It was completely wrong in every way and given even I don't think it logically made sense it probably shouldn't have been allowed. If this system of having the additional layer of slot limitation able to be added for a given hard point, it would be very easy to restrict a Raven from mounting an AC20 by putting the maximum slots able to be used below 10.

The important things to bear in mind with this suggestion are:

1) Not every hard point has to include any slot based size restrictions.
2) This system could give PGI a relatively easy way to balance Mechs if cheese builds are discovered.
3) Ultimately the system should provide balance to the force to MWO by preventing crazy builds that shouldn't really be possible e.g. a Gauss Rifle in a Commando or a 'Splatcat' with 6 x SRM 6's...
4) This doesn't mean each slot can be filled with a weapon, if a single hard points has up to 4 slots available this is still a single weapon allowed, but that weapon can be up to a size four for critical slots.


#12 MaddMaxx

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 07:58 AM

I am waiting for "HEATGATE!"

When the Forums start wailing, whining and screaming "WTF, I can't fire 3 PPC's, 3 erLL, without destroying 2 of them and 3 components, due to internal heat damage"

then we will be on the right track. :P

#13 Acid Phase

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 08:03 AM

View PostMaddMaxx, on 22 May 2013 - 07:58 AM, said:

I am waiting for "HEATGATE!"

When the Forums start wailing, whining and screaming "WTF, I can't fire 3 PPC's, 3 erLL, without destroying 2 of them and 3 components, due to internal heat damage"

then we will be on the right track. :P


Well that's s given. Both hardpoint restrictions and heat penalties are a nudge in the right direction and needs to be implemented. Proper balance. Let's make it more like Battletech, shall we.

Edited by Acid Phase, 23 May 2013 - 12:03 PM.


#14 Sybreed

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 06:35 PM

judging from Russ' post "It's been discussed", I'm afraid it means "it's been discussed and tossed aside"

I wonder why though, with all the new mechs, there's no reason to permit almost 100% customization and the game would be a thousand times easier to balance. It wouldn't be Boatwarrior Online anymore, which is no big loss honestly. The recent patch (from what I read only) just proved that people will boat one OP build to the next until the end of time... or until someone puts a stop to this madness and dare I say it, travesty.

#15 Zyllos

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 06:48 PM

View PostAcid Phase, on 22 May 2013 - 08:03 AM, said:


Well that's s given. Both are hardpoint restrictions and heat penalties are a nudge in the right direction and needs to be implemented. Proper balance. Let's make it more like Battletech, shall we.


Agreed.

Less pin point convergence, more hardpoint restrictions, better heat system with balanced DHS (instead of inside/outside DHS giving bonuses to larger engines), balanced tonnage (I think this one is coming with the lobby system and Dropship mode), and number tweaks in weapons.

#16 AntiCitizenJuan

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 06:50 PM

View PostMegalosauroid, on 22 May 2013 - 06:29 AM, said:

If they add hardpoint restrictions you're just going to cut down the number of overpowered chassis from a handful of varied ones to one from each weightclass. Then we can all play in the one light/heavy/assault mech with decent hardpoints and ignore the rest. How is that a solution.


Actually design all mechs hardpoints so they're all viable? Don't knock the idea without looking at the big picture, which the people against the idea of HP sizes typically do.

#17 Billygoat

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 06:55 PM

View PostSuprentus, on 22 May 2013 - 06:47 PM, said:

Customization is awesome and fun. Stop trying to **** on everyone's parade.


It IS awesome and fun. But restricting it is really a no-brainer for PGI. It's easier to maintain some semblance of balance in the game AND they'll sell more mechs because, you know that Hunchback/Dragon/Stalker/whatever build you've just been itching to try? Well, that's only possible on this other variant because of hardpoint size limitation. So you'd better pony up for the mech bay and buy it.

I suspect the reason it's not being publicly considered is that they've been running the game with nearly carte blanche customisation for so long that if they tightened it up some, you could probably hear the screams about CUSTOMERS and REAL MUNNIES and LIES and I BOUGHT FOUNDERS FOR THIS?!!?! from New Avalon.

Edited by Billygoat, 22 May 2013 - 06:59 PM.


#18 Suprentus

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 07:18 PM

View PostBillygoat, on 22 May 2013 - 06:55 PM, said:


It IS awesome and fun. But restricting it is really a no-brainer for PGI. It's easier to maintain some semblance of balance in the game AND they'll sell more mechs because, you know that Hunchback/Dragon/Stalker/whatever build you've just been itching to try? Well, that's only possible on this other variant because of hardpoint size limitation. So you'd better pony up for the mech bay and buy it.

I suspect the reason it's not being publicly considered is that they've been running the game with nearly carte blanche customisation for so long that if they tightened it up some, you could probably hear the screams about CUSTOMERS and REAL MUNNIES and LIES and I BOUGHT FOUNDERS FOR THIS?!!?! from New Avalon.


It doesn't need any more restricting. I have 18 Mechs in my bay, all mastered, and all customized differently to play differently. Among them, I have 2 variants each of Cataphracts, Catapults, Stalkers, and Spiders. The reason for this is because there is already enough variation between chassis and variants to fit different playstyles, all of them viable.

One of my Spiders is one of my favorite Mechs in the game because I slapped an ER PPC on it, the fastest engine, max jump jets, and ECM. This configuration essentially makes it a scout sniper kind of role, and my god is it fun. This is just one example of what you can pull off with the current system. So why do people have to insist on horrible ideas that limit our imaginations in our builds? The balance was designed so that even the smallest Mech can carry a weapon that a big one can carry. The limit is just what you have to sacrifice to get away with that.

Edited by Suprentus, 22 May 2013 - 07:19 PM.


#19 Lightfoot

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 07:32 PM

They already have Missile Hardpoint restrictions in the number of missile tubes. Keeps you from getting hit by LRM60-80 at once from one mech.

Supposedly it's based on the original stock configuration of the variant, but this has nothing to do with Battletech and is a bit misleading to players who don't know to go to a third party website to find out how many missile tubes the mech actually supports.

I am fine with the current hardpoint functionality, but advise getting rid of the missile tube thing, one way or another.

#20 Parliment

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 07:34 PM

Adapt and overcome. That is central to any battlefield "real or not" I love boaters when in my spider. Makes for a giggle to leg them and ripm' to bits.
I am fairly sure alot of other pilots would agree. Every platform has a weakness that can be used against them.
My ELO isnt great so i havent seen crazy amounts of poptarts or superstalker ppc platforms. But when i do catch one they iz ded!
I have seen so much talk about abuse about boaating poptarding streakcating or any other cheese build it honestly seems like most people just gripe about these things to vent.

Edited by supernachos, 22 May 2013 - 07:35 PM.






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