69 replies to this topic

[Renthrak]

UPDATE July 22nd: Streak location tracking has been fixed, so it is properly seeking limbs rather than joints. This seems to be a good time to revive this idea, as LRMs seem good on damage, but are still focusing a vast majority of damage on the center torso. Naturally, this makes the size of the center torso directly proportional to the lethality of LRMs. Stalker, Atlas, Dragon, pretty much anything with a large torso is still being rapidly cored. SO, once again, I propose having LRMs use the SSRM limb tracking sydtem, preferably with groups of 5 LRMs tracking to a single location. Recent spread issues has caused smaller LRM launchers to be more powerful, but SSRM location seeking would prevent this from becoming an issue.

While I was watching the new LRMs in flight, I had an idea.

With the most recent patch, TAG, NARC, and Artemis tighten the LRM spread size. Consequently, even without the splash damage issue, the vast majority of the missiles in a volley will strike the same armor location (usually the CT). This is, of course, a bit of a problem. There's plenty of threads on that subject already, and the devs have a flight arc and splash damage fix incoming to help. It seems to me that even with those issues corrected, the spread tightening could still cause problems. However, having more LRMs in a volley hit the target is a perfectly reasonable benefit for systems that assist missile targeting, so I would be reluctant to discard it.

Those of us that have been in MWO's Beta for a while will likely be feeling a bit of deja-vu at this point. We had almost the exact issue with Streak SRMs earlier. Making all of the SSRMs hit resulted in massive damage to the CT. So SSRM tracking was adjusted to target various locations on the 'Mech to reduce the problem. With splash damage, the problem persisted to some degree, but splash damage is already slated to be fixed.


With all of this in mind, I think that it would be beneficial to make use of solutions that we have already come up with rather than reinvent the wheel. Thus, I propose that we apply the SSRM location targeting to LRMs. The result of this, I believe, would allow reductions in LRM spread to cause more missiles to strike the target, while still spreading the damage over the 'Mech. I think it also might look rather impressive, which is an added benefit.

The top two are the current LRM spread, the bottom two are my suggested change.

EDIT: It seems like removing or severely reducing the radius of splash damage would be important.

Also, having LRMs pick targets in groups of 5 (5 of the missiles hit the same location) would allow smaller LRM launchers to retain effectiveness.

Edited by Renthrak, 22 July 2013 - 06:42 PM.

[One Medic Army]

I'm for this, though I'd change it so that instead of each missile tracking independently each large volley split into multiple smaller volleys (say 5 missiles per) that tracked independently.

[Zyllos]

Yes sir, please.

CBT realistic spread of LRMs. SSRMs seem to be hitting the CT a lot still though, at least that is what it feels like when SSRMs are fired at me.

[General Taskeen]

For missiles in particular they NEED a minimum turn arc, especially streaks in combination with something like the above. The problem is going to get worse when trying to balance SSRM4/6, and all the other types of LRMs and Streak LRMs.

[Renthrak]

One Medic Army, on 24 May 2013 - 01:19 PM, said:

I'm for this, though I'd change it so that instead of each missile tracking independently each large volley split into multiple smaller volleys (say 5 missiles per) that tracked independently.

That would probably be better, yes. That way, there is a tangible benefit for taking that LRM5 or LRM10, because each volley would focus the vast majority of the damage in one or two armor sections. Compared with an LRM15 or LRM20, which would spread the damage from a single volley over three or four armor locations.

With the random armor location targeting, there would be virtually no difference in the effectiveness of firing an LRM20 once or an LRM5 four times. In fact, the smaller LRM launchers would be more ammo efficient, as you would waste fewer missiles when your target takes cover or you lose the lock. The DPS per ton for LRMs is already better on the smaller launchers, so this would create a clearer role.

Zyllos, on 24 May 2013 - 01:32 PM, said:

SSRMs seem to be hitting the CT a lot still though, at least that is what it feels like when SSRMs are fired at me.

That's the splash damage. On a small 'Mech, no matter where the missile hits, the splash damage will still reach the CT. That's why splash damage is the focus of a lot of the discussion on missile tweaks.

Edited by Renthrak, 24 May 2013 - 05:50 PM.

[El Bandito]

I'm ok with this idea but PGI better buff SSRM damage to compensate for this.

Edited by El Bandito, 24 May 2013 - 07:07 PM.

[One Medic Army]

El Bandito, on 24 May 2013 - 07:06 PM, said:

I'm ok with this idea but PGI better buff SSRM damage to compensate for this.

Well, they need to buff SRM damage, period and they seem to want SRMs and SSRMs to deal the same damage, so...

[Renthrak]

One Medic Army, on 24 May 2013 - 11:14 PM, said:

Well, they need to buff SRM damage, period and they seem to want SRMs and SSRMs to deal the same damage, so...

I'm starting to think that the only reason SRMs were effective before was the screwed up splash damage. It's like shooting paintballs at this point.

[buttmonkey]

you hit the nail on the head here mate, if pgi learn from the ssrm fix they can avoid a lot of QQing not to mention save a lot of time and man hours

[Gremlich Johns]

Wait until the Clans bring in SLRMs, then you'll have it.....

[Renthrak]

Gremlich Johns, on 25 May 2013 - 07:13 AM, said:

Wait until the Clans bring in SLRMs, then you'll have it.....

Congratulations, you failed to understand the post and brought up technology that won't exist for another 7 years.

[Tombstoner]

I really like this idea. it takes TT hit location system for groups of 5 missiles and spread the damage out. independent of player "skill" of course real MW's dont use LRMs only noobs do.... am i right.. wink wink.

Also in TT you rolled for the number of missiles that hit. in MWO its 100% unless its shot down or hits the ground.
copying the ssrm system for groups of 5 missiles is a decent solution. worrying about clan tech is silly cause the targeting computer was tossed out along time ago.

P.S. try shooting an lrm 20 out of a location with only one missile tube(ment for narc). what mech is that.... raven.

[Owlfeathers]

Tombstoner, on 28 May 2013 - 05:01 PM, said:

P.S. try shooting an lrm 20 out of a location with only one missile tube(ment for narc). what mech is that.... raven.

I've done that before, it's hilarious. You basically end up with a missile launching machine gun.

[Sephlock]

Make this poll non-public .

[aniviron]

As someone who plays quite a lot of hunchback, I noticed a flaw in your images. It actually works a lot more like this:



Also, the problem with LRMs for the few days they were OP was that the did work just like streaks, i.e. the splash damage from spread means the largest/most centered hit area takes almost all of the damage (usually ct).

[Renthrak]

aniviron, on 28 May 2013 - 08:49 PM, said:

As someone who plays quite a lot of hunchback, I noticed a flaw in your images. It actually works a lot more like this

Well, my visual reference isn't intended to be specific to the Hunchback. This was just the most useful image for this purpose, and it happened to be a Hunchback.

aniviron, on 28 May 2013 - 08:49 PM, said:

Also, the problem with LRMs for the few days they were OP was that the did work just like streaks, i.e. the splash damage from spread means the largest/most centered hit area takes almost all of the damage (usually ct).

Spread and splash damage are different matters entirely. Spread relates to the location that the missile will strike, and splash is a sphere centered on the point of impact that causes damage to any additional armor locations that it touches.

In order to prevent the problem that you cite from happening again, removing splash damage from LRMs entirely should do it. Naturally, that wouldn't help much with LRMs tracking to the center torso in one tight mass. So, have groups of 5 LRMs pick a random location and track to that, just like SSRMs do in pairs(I think). With some degree of spread, some missiles will hit an adjacent armor location instead of the one it tracks to, and some will miss entirely if they aren't tracking directly to the CT.

The result should be similar to the huge spread that LRMs had at one point, but with far more control over the damage inflicted.

[Renthrak]

In the most recent Ask the Devs, it was mentioned that LRM splash damage is currently set at 5cm, which is effectively zero. This explains why the CT is taking so much damage, as the tighter spread means that most missiles impact there directly.

If we consider splash damage already out of the equation, then the next step is to cause missiles to impact in different locations and then boost damage so that they are reasonably effective again. Just adding random location targeting will immediately nerf LRM lethality, so returning to 1.0 or even 1.5 damage might be necessary.

[ExtremeA79]

Renthrak, on 22 May 2013 - 10:06 PM, said:

While I was watching the new LRMs in flight, I had an idea.

With the most recent patch, TAG, NARC, and Artemis tighten the LRM spread size. Consequently, even without the splash damage issue, the vast majority of the missiles in a volley will strike the same armor location (usually the CT). This is, of course, a bit of a problem. There's plenty of threads on that subject already, and the devs have a flight arc and splash damage fix incoming to help. It seems to me that even with those issues corrected, the spread tightening could still cause problems. However, having more LRMs in a volley hit the target is a perfectly reasonable benefit for systems that assist missile targeting, so I would be reluctant to discard it.

Those of us that have been in MWO's Beta for a while will likely be feeling a bit of deja-vu at this point. We had almost the exact issue with Streak SRMs earlier. Making all of the SSRMs hit resulted in massive damage to the CT. So SSRM tracking was adjusted to target various locations on the 'Mech to reduce the problem. With splash damage, the problem persisted to some degree, but splash damage is already slated to be fixed.


With all of this in mind, I think that it would be beneficial to make use of solutions that we have already come up with rather than reinvent the wheel. Thus, I propose that we apply the SSRM location targeting to LRMs. The result of this, I believe, would allow reductions in LRM spread to cause more missiles to strike the target, while still spreading the damage over the 'Mech. I think it also might look rather impressive, which is an added benefit.

The top two are the current LRM spread, the bottom two are my suggested change.

EDIT: It seems like removing or severely reducing the radius of splash damage would be important.

Also, having LRMs pick targets in groups of 5 (5 of the missiles hit the same location) would allow smaller LRM launchers to retain effectiveness.

you get my vote

[Renthrak]

Updated.

[TOGSolid]

+1