325 replies to this topic

[Panzerman03]

Ghogiel, on 31 May 2013 - 05:03 AM, said:

If Elo says 2 teams go on the same team, then it's a legit match up.

Bull. If you carry out a successful sync drop, you gain all kinds of advantages that your opponents cannot have. One, your entire team gets to agree on what mechs to take and then the matchmaker tries to find opponents within a certain tonnage range - which means you get to dictate how the match will play and prepare for it, while your opponent does not. Your entire team gets to communicate. Your entire team can have an agreed upon plan before the match even starts. Those advantages obliterate the outcome predictions that ELO is based on, and that's the reason the devs have specifically said that sync-dropping is not allowed. Your lack of understanding how ELO works is not justification to sync drop.

4-mans have some advantages, but there is no other place to drop with 2-4 players and you're likely to be facing other 2-4 man premades if you're in a good one.

If you've got an 8-man team, get in the 8-man queue.

Edited by Panzerman03, 31 May 2013 - 08:46 AM.

[Petroshka]

If people are complaining that voice chat and grouping is cheating, that must be a very good indication that real cheating is at a minimum.

[xDeityx]

Petroshka, on 31 May 2013 - 09:18 AM, said:

If people are complaining that voice chat and grouping is cheating, that must be a very good indication that real cheating is at a minimum.

This is so illogical it made my brain hurt.

[Petroshka]

xDeityx, on 31 May 2013 - 09:21 AM, said:

This is so illogical it made my brain hurt.

Why? If people complain about mundane stuff, it means they are not affected by serious things.

[edit] for example: First-world problems.

Edited by Petroshka, 31 May 2013 - 09:25 AM.

[xDeityx]

Petroshka, on 31 May 2013 - 09:23 AM, said:

Why? If people complain about mundane stuff, it means they are not affected by serious things.

[edit] for example: First-world problems.

First of all, people are complaining about cheating. If you want a specific example look at how Koreanese got accused when he placed first in mediums and heavies during the Spring Clean Up challenge. Or just search for the word cheating here on the forums.

Cheating is also something that you have no idea is occuring if done correctly. Only bad cheaters get caught. Good cheaters are almost indistiguishable from good players. Many cheaters are also good players that augment their skill with hacks. It's actually more likely for a better player to be drawn to cheating because they take winning and losing more seriously. Bad players tend to be the ones who blatantly cheat because they don't have the skill to hide it. I saw this a lot in Counter:Strike when I was admin on a public server.

Drawing the conclusion that cheating must be at a minimum just because people are being hyperbolic in a forum post is assinine.

[DeaconW]

Ghogiel, on 31 May 2013 - 07:14 AM, said:

Strawman is made of straw.

The bottom line is Elo exists, therefore you are wrong.

"The Law exists, therefore every law is valid". Nice tautology you got going there...jackboots everywhere would be proud...

Here, I will help...saying "it exists, therefore it is good" isn't a logically valid response to debate about the "goodness" of a particular idea or process...unless you are intellectually stunted. It is the intellectual equivalent of "Is too!".

[Petroshka]

xDeityx, on 31 May 2013 - 09:39 AM, said:

First of all, people are complaining about cheating. [etc]

Well, i didn't mean to offend you, sorry if i hit a sore spot with my original comment which was a bit tongue-in-cheek. Of course I know there are cheaters. The idea of my post was simply that if people are complaining about mundane problems (that, like in this case, are actually not problems), then real problems must not be as prevalent.

I didn't mean to imply that it meant that there is no cheating. But just to compare, in PS2 there were blatant exploits and aimbots that of course caused tidal floods of complaints in the forums. When they cracked down on most (not all - as you say, only lazy cheaters get caught) cheaters, these posts went away in favor of more mundane complaints.

I expect there will be a spring tide of cheating accusations and complaints once CW starts rolling around, mostly because you will see an upswing in cheating. Right now, the rewards from cheating are fairly low.

Also, while you're certainly entitled to your opinion, people will tend not to react well to being personally attacked. Try being less abrasive.

[edit] removed double quote.

Edited by Petroshka, 31 May 2013 - 09:54 AM.

[Waking One]

It's not premades. You just suck at the game.

Hard to accept i know.

[Alekzander Smirnoff]

After reading this thread, I need some serious brain bleach. Plus a facepalm.

[Loxx]

How can pre-mades be exploiters when the game has a GROUP button?

How about employing a little Occam's razor. In that, based on server-side hit detection negating aim bots and invulnerability - No one is actually cheating because its virtually impossible without gaming the server. Many players just perceive that they are because they can't accept that they got out-played in a match or let someone get an extreme advantage on them.

This is a TEAM game, the people that play most like a team enhancing their team's strengths will win every time. The soon as you COD mentality to combat solo-droppers understand this the better we all will be.

Edited by Loxx, 31 May 2013 - 10:23 AM.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

I find it difficult to disagree with the original message the OP was trying to get across. Players who "game the system" and/or abuse bugs are technically exploiters. PGI is just as much to blame tho for not shoring up known outstanding issues.

Edited by lockwoodx, 31 May 2013 - 11:04 AM.

[xDeityx]

Panzerman03, on 31 May 2013 - 08:45 AM, said:

Bull. If you carry out a successful sync drop, you gain all kinds of advantages that your opponents cannot have.

You have a point about synch-dropping two 4-mans to effectively have an 8-man, but for all other group vs. solo player situations it doesn't matter. You may be a worse player than someone who solo drops only, but you win just as much as they do because you group up and they don't. You will still be faced against them by the Elo matchmaking system. Their superior skill at the game is balanced by your superior coordination with your group. It's the reason why Elo only cares about win/losses. It doesn't care why you win or lose...maybe you only drop in a 4-man, maybe you only use the best loadouts, maybe you are just the best MechWarrior ever...it is totally irrelevant. Elo just cares how often you win or lose.

Edited by xDeityx, 31 May 2013 - 11:54 AM.

[LordBraxton]

DeaconW, on 25 May 2013 - 10:09 AM, said:

Yeah...and the MM seems to put me on *their* side most of the time...how do you get them to be on the *other* side? Oh...I'm sorry...I am expecting the MM and ELO to work. I agree there should be a solo-only que. I play with a unit but when I am pugging I would prefer a solo que.

a little confused by your post

my point stands

I find 4-man matches much more challenging than when I solo

either my unit sucks

or my Elo is really low

Id wager on the latter

[Ezekeel666]

I do not know of any halfway successful PvP game which pits premades against PUGs. Some of them tried at some point in the past, but they all came to the conclusion that it does hinder competitive gameplay and kills the fun.

Having PUGs fight against premades is not only seriously diminishing the gameplay experience for casual players, but also for competitive premades that want to advance their skills and have a challenging match against equals. The only group profiting from such a broken system are those poor people with a personality disorder that crave the validation in-game that they are not getting in real life and trolls that like to grief other players.

[Ngamok]

Ezekeel666, on 31 May 2013 - 01:15 PM, said:

I do not know of any halfway successful PvP game which pits premades against PUGs. Some of them tried at some point in the past, but they all came to the conclusion that it does hinder competitive gameplay and kills the fun.

Having PUGs fight against premades is not only seriously diminishing the gameplay experience for casual players, but also for competitive premades that want to advance their skills and have a challenging match against equals. The only group profiting from such a broken system are those poor people with a personality disorder that crave the validation in-game that they are not getting in real life and trolls that like to grief other players.

Please explain PvP game. Call of Duty like? Because most people play TDM instead of Merc TDM (log in and check the numbers) and lots of people pug that game. MMORPG? Like WoW or RIFT or SWTOR where you can queue up for any battle ground solo and be pitted against groups on the other side? Or do you mean WoW arena matches that you can still queue up solo for but everyone plays in the 2,3,5 man groups. MOBA games like LoL or HoN or Dota1/2 where you can still go in solo.

Trying to understand here. Or are we talking about arena gaming league play where going in solo isn't even allowed.

[Ezekeel666]

Ngamok, on 31 May 2013 - 01:20 PM, said:

Please explain PvP game. Call of Duty like? Because most people play TDM instead of Merc TDM (log in and check the numbers) and lots of people pug that game. MMORPG? Like WoW or RIFT or SWTOR where you can queue up for any battle ground solo and be pitted against groups on the other side? Or do you mean WoW arena matches that you can still queue up solo for but everyone plays in the 2,3,5 man groups. MOBA games like LoL or HoN or Dota1/2 where you can still go in solo.

Trying to understand here. Or are we talking about arena gaming league play where going in solo isn't even allowed.

The point is not that you cannot queue up solo, but that when you do the matchmaker will put you into a group with other solo player that is fighting an enemy group also consisting of solo players. Or if some small premade groups are mixed in that this happens equally on both opposing sides to ensure balance. In the same way, full premades are put against other full premades to give both sides a challenging match which improves your skill and team work which is exactly what the high-skilled competitive players are craving for. Due to the currently hardly working matchmaker MW:O is losing potential players on both ends.

Edited by Ezekeel666, 31 May 2013 - 01:51 PM.

[Ghogiel]

Panzerman03, on 31 May 2013 - 08:45 AM, said:

Bull. If you carry out a successful sync drop, you gain all kinds of advantages that your opponents cannot have. One, your entire team gets to agree on what mechs to take and then the matchmaker tries to find opponents within a certain tonnage range - which means you get to dictate how the match will play and prepare for it, while your opponent does not. Your entire team gets to communicate. Your entire team can have an agreed upon plan before the match even starts. Those advantages obliterate the outcome predictions that ELO is based on, and that's the reason the devs have specifically said that sync-dropping is not allowed. Your lack of understanding how ELO works is not justification to sync drop.

4-mans have some advantages, but there is no other place to drop with 2-4 players and you're likely to be facing other 2-4 man premades if you're in a good one.

If you've got an 8-man team, get in the 8-man queue.

You have not mentioned how Elo actually works only weight class match making. What it does is give a rating to players, which is used to determine match ups based on past performance, assigns a probability rating on W/L for each match up and adjusts their rating based on outcome.

The odds are already predetermined based on how the player performs in previous matches. What that means is that it already takes into account the players behavior. PUG or premade it doesn't matter.

The first paragraph you wrote there is the same exact one I have read before many times, the one used to rationalize how PUGs playing against premades is somehow unfair. Since Elo rendered that idea moot, it also renders this one moot for exactly the same reasons.

DeaconW, on 31 May 2013 - 09:50 AM, said:

"The Law exists, therefore every law is valid". Nice tautology you got going there...jackboots everywhere would be proud... Here, I will help...saying "it exists, therefore it is good" isn't a logically valid response to debate about the "goodness" of a particular idea or process...unless you are intellectually stunted. It is the intellectual equivalent of "Is too!".

Elo exists. Your argument is invalid.

[DeaconW]

Ghogiel, on 31 May 2013 - 05:07 PM, said:

The odds are already predetermined based on how the player performs in previous matches. What that means is that it already takes into account the players behavior. PUG or premade it doesn't matter.

ELO is broken. Your argument is invalid (see, I can play your silly little game!). You could have vastly different performance in PUG or premade which would affect the average ELO, but not give a true measure of your performance for each specific case. But I admire your religious devotion to a single-player concept developed for chess that has been transported to a multiplayer environment where the pieces are all variable and the board changes constantly.

Quote

Elo exists. Your argument is invalid.

Such well reasoned arguments...you should be on the debate team! Congratulations! You have just demonstrated that you are not worth my time. Welcome to my ignore file. Your chair is the small blue one in the corner...

[Soy]

HOW THE **** IS THIS THREAD STILL HERE

[blinkin]

Soy, on 31 May 2013 - 11:50 PM, said:

HOW THE **** IS THIS THREAD STILL HERE

people like to argue and rant.

have you seen the running gag... i mean argument about whether one of the arguments is valid?