325 replies to this topic

[Jman5]

Doesn't Elo essentially self-correct this problem? The guys who win a lot through superior teamwork match against people who do the same. The guys who lone wolf and lose a lot move down until he reaches people of similar playstyle/skill.

If you're getting stomped by some team using flavor of the month builds you both will eventually move out of each other's matchmaking spheres.

Even if the team brings in a real dud to lower their Elo average, if they keep winning they will eventually pull that guy up to the appropriate level. Either way, the longer we play, the better matchmaking will work.

[IamSalvation]

blinkin, on 23 May 2013 - 10:17 AM, said:

yes, i totally agree tactics and communication are absolutely an exploit!

If you use them on purpose against enemys that can´t use it, YES IT IS.

Is really Noone of you "Defenders of PUG Stomping" seeing how this will KILL the Game?

[NachoFoot]

Title of the game: 4 + 4 Premade vs a Pug. That's the funniest situation I've seen so far. The only way we won was by back-capping.

If you're going to allow pre-mades to fight pugs, you need to even the playing field. This isn't supposed to be World of Tanks...

[Wreknar Temper]

Jman5, on 23 May 2013 - 10:19 AM, said:

Doesn't Elo essentially self-correct this problem? The guys who win a lot through superior teamwork match against people who do the same. The guys who lone wolf and lose a lot move down until he reaches people of similar playstyle/skill.

If you're getting stomped by some team using flavor of the month builds you both will eventually move out of each other's matchmaking spheres.

Even if the team brings in a real dud to lower their Elo average, if they keep winning they will eventually pull that guy up to the appropriate level. Either way, the longer we play, the better matchmaking will work.

Elo does account for this for that very reason. The outliers are due to changes in behavior (i.e. someone in your 4man is subbed out making your team's avg Elo different). Realistically, the only real problem is if people start abusing the tactic of team Elo deflation (3 high rankers take a newbie in to drag their own scores down). But in that case, it's hardly a problem, I've never seen this issue before in MWO.

[Taemien]

DV McKenna, on 23 May 2013 - 10:13 AM, said:

You know that post you quoted refers to the group que? right and not the solo,2-4 que.

If what you say is correct, then the OP wouldn't have made this thread. The only 'group' queue that there is is an 8 man vs 8 man. This will be changed to 12 v 12. Solo + 2-4 man will be changed to solo + 2-8 man. That is the point I'm making. If 4 mans are making you squirm, 8 mans will be even more so.

I'm not going to argue how right or wrong premade 4 mans or in the future, 8 mans will be or are. Thats been argued to death already. Separate queues aren't going to come so what you have is what you got.

[blinkin]

IamSalvation, on 23 May 2013 - 10:19 AM, said:

If you use them on purpose

this is priceless. thank you.

[IamSalvation]

blinkin, on 23 May 2013 - 10:26 AM, said:

this is priceless. thank you.

read the rest?

"on purpose against enemys that DON´T have them"

[Taemien]

Actually the only reason the OP made this thread is because he knows the Devs won't change it. Look at the title. He's calling people who group names.

This means he's failed to influence the devs decision and is now trying to use peer pressure and demonization against his peers. Now my question to everyone is how do you feel about that fact? This is akin to bullying. Its just that it has no subsistence because physically, this guy isn't intimidating (no one is on the internet). But how do you all feel about the attempt?

OP I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and allow for you to explain yourself and even change the title in order to redeem yourself. Calling people out for how they like to play in a legitimate and fair manner (even if you don't agree that it is), is a very low move.

[Asakara]

http://mwomercs.com/...e__pid__2107971


Naitsirch: Will there be a no-premade / solo-drop mode or not.

A: We’re looking at it. Currently most MWO players actually play in groups.

[Ngamok]

IamSalvation, on 23 May 2013 - 10:19 AM, said:

If you use them on purpose against enemys that can´t use it, YES IT IS.

Is really Noone of you "Defenders of PUG Stomping" seeing how this will KILL the Game?

It has not killed any of the Call of Duty games ever.

[Wreknar Temper]

IamSalvation, on 23 May 2013 - 10:19 AM, said:

If you use them on purpose against enemys that can´t use it, YES IT IS.

Is really Noone of you "Defenders of PUG Stomping" seeing how this will KILL the Game?

No one is defending it because it hasn't killed the game yet. You have a 4 man cap, you have Elo MM, you know have weight cap criteria, and, finally, you now have New Player Elo scores. PGI has given your camp all the tools needed to go it alone in MWO. If anyone is trying to ruin the game, it is folks like you that refuse to accept that playing the game solo is going to put you at an inherit disadvantage against those that team up in a *gasp* TEAM game.

Seriously, there is nothing hard about joining a PUG premade either. The folks on the community driven TS/vent servers are kind, understanding, and forgiving. And....contrary to the stereotype, we don't smell funny, have wives or girlfriends (or perhaps both ), and are socially apt. If you feel stymied by the existence of premades, maybe you should up your game to compensate.

I've played both solo and in premades (both 8 and 4 mans). At no time did I really feel that premades ruined my enjoyment.

[Roland]

DanNashe, on 23 May 2013 - 09:19 AM, said:

If you implement a solo only queue, solos will probably queue for that.
As a result, you can no longer allow teams of 3. Because you can't get reliably with teams of è given the limited size of mwo's playerbase.

I'm not sure this is the case. In a game like COD, there are tons of folks who are playing alone, but play in the real queue rather than the merc queues. Believe it or not, lots of folks actually like playing with grouped players, even when playing by themselves, because it means the rest of your team is likely to be less foolish.

Likewise, there's nothing about a solo queue which prevents groups of 3.. because you'll suddenly have groups of 5, or other groups of 3 and a group of 2, or whatever.

Additionally, you'll help expand the player base, because currently the prevention of teams having 5-7 players is making people NOT PLAY THE GAME. Remove that restriction, and you will get more players.

Quote

8s are fundamentally different from 4 man's. No weight matching.

The only reason for this is because the 8 man queue consists of such a trivial number of players, that they can't really impose any kind of real matchmaking system.

If you just eliminate the 8 man queue, and put ALL grouped players into a single queue, then what you'll have is a queue for 8 man teams which DOES in fact impose weight matching.

Quote

Once you exceed 4, however, the premade becomes a majority and dominates.

If you have a separate solo queue, and allow all teams to match against each other, then you're going to get premade teams on both sides. Further, by allowing larger teams, you're going to get decently coordinated groups, like a 7 man team with one solo guy.. which is not going to be automatically trounced by an 8 man.

Finally, you eliminate the ability to sync drop. You're dropping with your team, and you're gonna get matched accordingly... Which will allow the system to actually be balanced correctly, instead of being balanced for a situation that players can then circumvent.

[Diablobo]

LOL

Teamwork is OP

[blinkin]

Taemien, on 23 May 2013 - 10:31 AM, said:

Actually the only reason the OP made this thread is because he knows the Devs won't change it. Look at the title. He's calling people who group names.

This means he's failed to influence the devs decision and is now trying to use peer pressure and demonization against his peers. Now my question to everyone is how do you feel about that fact? This is akin to bullying. Its just that it has no subsistence because physically, this guy isn't intimidating (no one is on the internet). But how do you all feel about the attempt?

OP I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and allow for you to explain yourself and even change the title in order to redeem yourself. Calling people out for how they like to play in a legitimate and fair manner (even if you don't agree that it is), is a very low move.

to be honest i think there should be incentives and tools for more effective teamplay for all. i pug almost exclusively, but the nature of his posts has earned him a steady stream of trolling from me.

i get annoyed when people throw up these sort of arguments on the opposing side. i get even more angry when people use these tactics to support things i agree with because it generally marginalizes the argument and i have to put extra effort forth to clean up the mess and argue stupid crap that i never said.

Edited by blinkin, 23 May 2013 - 10:41 AM.

[Ngamok]

Taemien, on 23 May 2013 - 10:24 AM, said:

If what you say is correct, then the OP wouldn't have made this thread. The only 'group' queue that there is is an 8 man vs 8 man. This will be changed to 12 v 12. Solo + 2-4 man will be changed to solo + 2-8 man. That is the point I'm making. If 4 mans are making you squirm, 8 mans will be even more so.

I'm not going to argue how right or wrong premade 4 mans or in the future, 8 mans will be or are. Thats been argued to death already. Separate queues aren't going to come so what you have is what you got.

http://mwomercs.com/...evs-37-answers/

Gallowglas: When 12v12 is introduced, which will be the available queue options?
Option A - Solo, 2-8 player premade, or 12 player premade
Option B - Solo, 2-4 player premade, 8 player premade, or 12 player premade
Option C - Something else
A: Currently 2-4 and 12. If we feel comfortable with matchmaking being able to create quality matches out of any size teams, we plan to do so.

http://mwomercs.com/...mades-in-12v12/

Asaru: Will we be seeing the return soon of the ability to drop in premade groups of various sizes and have pugs fill out the remainder of the team like it was in closed beta? Or has there been a conscious decision to not bring this back at all?
A: This is conscious to help balance out matches. The max team size in a public match is 4 and we continue to improve the matchmaker to create a more balanced experience. When 12 v 12 rolls out, 8 player teams will be replaced by 12 player teams.

Edited by Ngamok, 23 May 2013 - 10:51 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

IamSalvation, on 23 May 2013 - 06:17 AM, said:

Really PGI.. fix it.... ! Finaly!

Its just a bad joke how you keep catering a minority of players with your matchmaking that allows every veteran group of 4 to kill everyone and laugh about how easy it is.

Just make Matchmaking give each Team a premade or non at all.

Or let Groups ONLY play other groups, or max Groupsize of 2 for Random Games.

And no, its not ok.

I see 4 Man Premade groups with FOTM Builds all the time. Every 2nd game i run into them, either in my team or in the enemy team. Both is boring.

The only interesting Battles are when both have one or non.

To me 4 Man Players are nothing better then Cheaters/Exploiters, doing everything they can, how cheap it ever may be, to win at a video game.

It will ruin the game for every new player, just the last days i brought 2 old CB Veterans and one new player into the game.

All quit because of the Premade Stuff.

If they would at least take Builds that are a bit less in Power to make it fair.. no.. they all run the latest Chees/FOTM.

Another solution would be to give us 12Man Games FINALY... to compensate a bit for 4 man Teams.... but best would be 12 Players and limit groups to 2 Players... THIS would be about the right ratio for random games....

Yeah i know now all Players come in "get in a Premade yourselfe" "L2P" blabla...

I was in a Clan at start of OB, it was super boring, 90% winratio... really whats the point to rofl stomp everyone every game?
@"L2P" You can play how awesome you want, you can´t make up for 4 players that selected Mechs that work together, working together ingame and beein able to communicate 200% faster and better.... really its just easymode playing like that....

Funny I have been PUGging for about 2 months now on a Alt account and I have the same W/L and K/D as I do with my team, Maybe there is a different issue underling your problems with teams?

[Ghogiel]

The thing is it takes hundreds of games to get your Elo adjusted. You're either climbing or falling and it may take a while. Elo doesn't care if you are a PUG or premade. It's your performance that determines how good the players you are matched with are.

[Syllogy]

Ermaged! I have no friends and refuse to work as a team player! Lonewolves should have 10x more armor, unlimited ammo, and generate no heat!

[HeavyRain]

Let me see if I get this...
The proposal is to separate grouped players from solo players and match group against group only.
It does not abolish premades, what it does is not let them fight against solo players.
Those who oppose this proposal are actually saying "No, we want to drop in our group and be matched against solo players."

Is that the gist of the argument?
Because unless you specificaly want to drop against solos, I don't see why you would have a problem with it.

[Jestun]

HeavyRain, on 23 May 2013 - 10:55 AM, said:

Let me see if I get this...
The proposal is to separate grouped players from solo players and match group against group only.
It does not abolish premades, what it does is not let them fight against solo players.
Those who oppose this proposal are actually saying "No, we want to drop in our group and be matched against solo players."

Is that the gist of the argument?
Because unless you specificaly want to drop against solos, I don't see why you would have a problem with it.

Because if you are taking 2+ into another queue and removing all the solo players the matchmaker is forced to work around group sizes. It will have to fit in two teams of 8 players out of the available 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 & 8 man groups. In fact, 7 man groups would obviously not exist because they could not be matched to a solo queued player.

So if there is a 6 man they could only play when there is a 2 man group available, a 5 man would need a 3 man, a 4 man could have a 4 man or 2 2 man groups, and so on.

Think what this will do to the matchmaker. There are two options.

1. In order to maintain the current queue times the matchmaker criteria are make considerably looser resulting in less balanced matches.
2. In order to maintain the current matchmaker criteria the queues become longer.