218 replies to this topic

[Dexter Herbivore]

JohnathanSwift, on 25 May 2013 - 10:39 PM, said:

2 of the a1's had some LRMS.

Good luck trying to kill a spider at range with LRMs, you'd be lucky to even hit a half decent pilot.

[valkyrie]

Alymbic, on 25 May 2013 - 10:55 PM, said:

Well, in the second game we had against them in canyons, our lights were able to mob a A1 which had separated from the herd. That's about as much as we (lights) could do as far as combat was concerned. So, out of curiosity, how would you guys propose to 'fix' streaks as to make them not as overpowering? I'm genuinely curious as to your ideas.

I touched on this in another Streak thread:

valkyrie said:

A good idea would be to have Streaks home in only on the area of the 'Mech you had your reticule over when firing. If your reticule isn't over the enemy, the Streaks hit random locations on the 'Mech. This will encourage more skillful play while still making Streaks easier to use than standard SRMs.

Also, holy christ reduce the turn speed on SSRMs so they can miss if you have a bad firing angle. The 90 degree turns they can do now to hit things behind you as long as you're locked on is ridiculous.

Dexter Herbivore, on 25 May 2013 - 10:57 PM, said:

Good luck trying to kill a spider at range with LRMs, you'd be lucky to even hit a half decent pilot.

Be 100% honest with yourself, how suicidal would you have to be to run an 8-PPC Spider group if you knew that normal 8-man groups were in the rotation with the BAPCat group? Especially when said BAPCat group can be modified to take CPLT-C4s that pack PPCs themselves for long-range direct fire, which is what would happen if this was a concept taken to an actual metagame level?

[Dexter Herbivore]

valkyrie, on 25 May 2013 - 11:02 PM, said:

Be 100% honest with yourself, how suicidal would you have to be to run an 8-PPC Spider group if you knew that normal 8-man groups were in the rotation with the BAPCat group? Especially when said BAPCat group can be modified to take CPLT-C4s that pack PPCs themselves for long-range direct fire, which is what would happen if this was a concept taken to an actual metagame level?

That wasn't the question, the question was (paraphrased) "Name an 8 man group that could take this group on". I answered that question.

[Rat of the Legion Vega]

valkyrie, on 25 May 2013 - 11:02 PM, said:

I touched on this in another Streak thread:




Be 100% honest with yourself, how suicidal would you have to be to run an 8-PPC Spider group if you knew that normal 8-man groups were in the rotation with the BAPCat group? Especially when said BAPCat group can be modified to take CPLT-C4s that pack PPCs themselves for long-range direct fire, which is what would happen if this was a concept taken to an actual metagame level?

C4s can't pack PPCs - would need C1s but they can only mount 2 streaks.

I can see the 8-PPC spider team being quite effective for a time, actually. Spider 5Ds would pack ECMs making LRMs useless at range.

Well, they'd be quite effective until the Streak cat team realizes all it needs to do is leave 2 cats at base and send the other 6 cats to the enemy's base. Any spiders that try to stop the cap of their base are dead, and sight lines around bases are poor so they'd be unable to snipe in to stop the cap.

[Lyoto Machida]

CancR, on 25 May 2013 - 09:41 PM, said:

Vassago Rain confirmed as Cheal Sonnen.

THE CHAMP IS HERE!

Who can pull off a thumbs up AND a point in the same motion? That guy...

[valkyrie]

Rat of the Legion Vega, on 25 May 2013 - 11:09 PM, said:

C4s can't pack PPCs - would need C1s but they can only mount 2 streaks.

I can see the 8-PPC spider team being quite effective for a time, actually. Spider 5Ds would pack ECMs making LRMs useless at range.

Well, they'd be quite effective until the Streak cat team realizes all it needs to do is leave 2 cats at base and send the other 6 cats to the enemy's base. Any spiders that try to stop the cap of their base are dead, and sight lines around bases are poor so they'd be unable to snipe in to stop the cap.

Whoops, my mistake, it's been a while since I sold my -C4.

Point still stands with the -C1 though. Even mixing in two of them with the BAPCat horde would likely be incredibly effective.

[Alistair Winter]

People called this as soon as PGI revealed the changes to BAP. Funny how it takes the fans 1 minute to see the consequences of PGI's decisions and then we have to hold their hand for 1-8 weeks while they figure it out.


I'm not mad at you, PGI. I'm just very disappointed.


PS: Maybe you can name 1 or 2 eight-man groups that can take out a A1 Streak-team, but the point is that I can name a thousand eight-man groups that will lose to them. So whether or not there's a single perfect counter is quite irrelevant.

[Rat of the Legion Vega]

Alistair Winter, on 25 May 2013 - 11:12 PM, said:

I'm not mad at you, PGI. I'm just very disappointed.

At this point if I was IGP, I'd fire everyone at PGI responsible for weapon balancing, quite frankly. I'm sorry to say that, but complete incompetence can only be tolerated so long and the streak problem (along with dozens of others) has been going on for almost a year now.

Edit: You know, PGI people, I really don't mean that, I hope everyone can stay employed making Mechwarrior... but this and other issues have just passed the point of ridiculousness and it's becoming extremely frustrating even for longtime fans like myself who have tried to give you the benefit of the doubt in the past. A lot of things need to be done to bring this game's weapon balance back on track. And they need to be done QUICKLY.

.

Edited by Rat of the Legion Vega, 25 May 2013 - 11:19 PM.

[Pando]

I'm not doubting its effectiveness. Just saying, it's been beaten. I'm sure it's safe to say everything has been defeated. I'm not aware of any one build or any one 8's comp that's 100% undefeated several games in.

I'm enjoying my ssrm cat wins ;P

[Nicholas Carlyle]

I can't believe people are like "YOU LOST TO CAPS LOLZ".

What happens when PGI releases an actual real game mode like attack and defend and we stop this terrible base cap mechanic?

And please don't say "LRM's on Alpine will win", LRM's are totally messed up again. I'd actually take LRM's from Post Hotfix/Pre May 21st patch to what we have now.

[Victor Morson]

JohnathanSwift, on 25 May 2013 - 09:23 PM, said:

Give me 8 of a kind that can beat 8 A1 streakcats

I'd argue 8 Highlanders, as long as they were fit with a full four Streaks as auxillery weapons, would absolutely stomp the A1 Streakcats.

... I just gave you guys horrible ideas didn't I.

[Victor Morson]

Waking One, on 25 May 2013 - 09:37 PM, said:

Definitely better than you.

Loses to just about any team fitting any sort of alpha with half a collective braincell.

Waking One, sadly, you have no idea what you're talking about here.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Victor Morson, on 25 May 2013 - 11:44 PM, said:

I'd argue 8 Highlanders, as long as they were fit with a full four Streaks as auxillery weapons, would absolutely stomp the A1 Streakcats.

... I just gave you guys horrible ideas didn't I.

Yeah I'm trying to work out whether the mobility difference would be a factor...but I think you might be right.

You'd have the ability to mount 2 ER PPC's, 4 SSRM's, 8 tons of ammo (if you even need that many), max 325 engine. Leaves about 6 tons of heatsinks available. Only 1 jump jet, but should suffice, you could max them out if you wanted.

You could also do an UAC5, 2 Large Lasers, 4 Streaks, as well.

[valkyrie]

Victor Morson, on 25 May 2013 - 11:44 PM, said:

I'd argue 8 Highlanders, as long as they were fit with a full four Streaks as auxillery weapons, would absolutely stomp the A1 Streakcats.

... I just gave you guys horrible ideas didn't I.

The problem there is that Highlanders are big and often painfully slow unless they're packing an XL, and poptarting is going to get nerfed soon via reticule shake (Bryan apparently mentioned this on Twitter though I don't have a link on hand). Cats on the other hand are relatively low profile, can pack an XL with little concern for side torso destruction due to their shape, and are FAST for their weight class with great torso twist to boot, letting them prowl from cover to cover really well.

Once reticule shake for jumpjetting is in, an 8-man Highlander drop won't be that much different from ye olde twin Steiner scout lance, which is probably packing more firepower and ECM to boot (not that it'll help once the Cats find and close on them).

[Hayashi]

Don't forget the games where we dropped on different sides and you died, and the one where we were on the same side and I did twice as much damage as any of you in a Cicada. And dropped the final Jenner at our base before any of you could get there from full health.

Streaks are actually my pet peeve as (mainly) a light pilot, but if anything the main reason why you're doing well is because your 4(8) man groups are actually focusing fire properly, and the combination of focused CT streak damage takes down most opponents very quickly. It allows for people with little skill to do nearly as much damage as people with more, since streak damage is basically only hard limited by how well you can hold lock - not a challenge against slower mechs, and doesn't have to be done too many times against faster ones.

Your build has a maximum range of exactly 270 metres, and while my medium lasers are best used within that range as well, I can still do damage up to 540. There is no chance a 6x Streak build can survive against a skilled cicada at all... and I'm nowhere near the best cicada pilot out there. The best ones can blast your cockpit from outside your 270m range.

Streaks are far more scary on light mechs like the 3L or 2D, where you CAN'T stay out of their 270m range.

As it is you should consider using 4-5x SSRM2 and 1x Art. LRM 15 instead. It will be far more devastating than your current 6x SSRM2.

Even though Streaks are still too clearly broken such that I run Art. SRM4 in my HBK-4SP because I don't want to use them.

Edited by Hayashi, 25 May 2013 - 11:59 PM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

So you are saying 8v8...

8 Cicada's beat 8 Streak Cats?

Wouldn't 8 Jenner's be able to do the same then?

I really have a hard time with that one.

[jakucha]

The only streakpocolypse I was annoyed with was back when they were doing multiplied damage.

[Sam Slade]

This is why I want them to give ERPPCs and Gauss an impact point of zero again... Headshotting Cats was way easier then.

Maybe a good fix for Advanced Zoom?

Yes I know this wouldn't be a sure fire balance but if those 8 A1s became 6 A1s as soon as they got to engagement range then the battle would be harder and I'm sure you at Kong remember what Impact Point Zero sniping was like...(don't say 'same as now' because it's way different).

[Hayashi]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 26 May 2013 - 12:02 AM, said:

So you are saying 8v8... 8 Cicada's beat 8 Streak Cats? Wouldn't 8 Jenner's be able to do the same then? I really have a hard time with that one.

Would be even easier to. The JR7-F is superior to the Cicadas in almost every way. With LRMs thrown in it becomes a bit more challenging, but if it was 48 SSRM2 and nothing else, there wouldn't be a problem...

The problem is getting 8 good Jenner pilots on the same team. Almost all of them are either soloists or pilots in mixed groups.

Most Light pilots in the game at the moment are so horrifically bad they can be killed by a zombie Cent with only 2 medium lasers.

The multiple Jenner/Cicada formation is weak to PPC boating teams.

The best team composition I can think of at the moment is 2x JR7-D (4 MLAS, 2 SSRM2), 2x CPLT-A1 (4 SSRM2, 2 LRM15), 2x HGN-HM (ERPPC + Gauss) and 2x AC/20 Jagers on voice chat. Light teams can be cheesed to hell by the Streaks on the Jenners while the larger ones are protected by Cats and the snipers. Larger, slower mechs are detected early by Jenners and Adv. Seismic Sensor, and before they get into range the HGN can already snipe them down (JJ helps to nullify the targets' cover advantage) with LRM support from Cats. The Jagers focusing fire can take down any charging mechs in one shot with HM assistance. Should the enemy team hole up in a fortified position and wait, the Jenners can run the other way and cap the base - should they leave cover to defend the base they're sniped into oblivion by HM + Cats, should they stay there they lose by cap. And the Jenners also have a role to get noobs to play squirrel so they can lead them into the AC/20 Jagers' face.

Notice the conspicuous lack of SRM, LBX, Small Lasers and any Medium chassis in this.

Edited by Hayashi, 26 May 2013 - 12:15 AM.

[valkyrie]

Hayashi, on 26 May 2013 - 12:08 AM, said:

Would be even easier to. The JR7-F is superior to the Cicadas in almost every way. With LRMs thrown in it becomes a bit more challenging, but if it was 48 SSRM2 and nothing else, there wouldn't be a problem...

The problem is getting 8 good Jenner pilots on the same team. Almost all of them are either soloists or pilots in mixed groups.

Most Light pilots in the game at the moment are so horrifically bad they can be killed by a zombie Cent with only 2 medium lasers.

The multiple Jenner/Cicada formation is weak to PPC boating teams.

The best team composition I can think of at the moment is 2x JR7-D (4 MLAS, 2 SSRM2), 2x CPLT-A1 (4 SSRM2, 2 LRM15), 2x HGN-HM (ERPPC + Gauss) and 2x AC/20 Jagers on voice chat.

Personally, I don't think the point of this was to flip the meta on it's head; rather, I think the idea was to make it evident how much the BAP buff against ECM has helped Streakcats become extremely strong in knife-fights again, possibly even moreso than the AC/20 Jag due to the shape of the 'Mech and the guaranteed hits.

At least, that's what I'm taking away from it.