82 replies to this topic

[Huntsman]

Whether it be direct fire support, AC20s, or LRMs, there's nothing that the Catapult can do that another mech of equal or greater tonnage can't do better. The only exception is the A1 with an SRMcat or a streakcat, and in the curent game environment, I wouldn't call either build optimal.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

Huntsman, on 29 May 2013 - 10:55 AM, said:

Whether it be direct fire support, AC20s, or LRMs, there's nothing that the Catapult can do that another mech of equal or greater tonnage can't do better. The only exception is the A1 with an SRMcat or a streakcat, and in the curent game environment, I wouldn't call either build optimal.

Tonnage restrictions is where the Cat truly shines. If this game ever utilizes it, better for everyone imo because it will bring back a meta where the cat was very competitive.

[Corvus Antaka]

my dual gauss kitty says

"everyting is a, oh, k"

[Franchi]

Ngamok, on 29 May 2013 - 08:49 AM, said:

Stalkers would tell you otherwise.

Stalker is a blimp with legs not a mech.

[Ngamok]

Franchi, on 29 May 2013 - 11:11 AM, said:

Stalker is a blimp with legs not a mech.

Catapult has same torso twist as Jenner and raven, but Cicada beats it by 5 degrees. Stalker is much less and Jager and Black Jack are somewhat less. So they aren't really the same. And to top it off, a Catapult beat them all till the most recent nerf to their now current 120 degrees.

[Huntsman]

lockwoodx, on 29 May 2013 - 10:58 AM, said:

Tonnage restrictions is where the Cat truly shines. If this game ever utilizes it, better for everyone imo because it will bring back a meta where the cat was very competitive.

- the Jager DD is a better AC20 boat
- Stalkers, Highlanders, and Awesomes..possibly even the DDC are better LRM boats
- Cataphracts, Highlanders, and Stalkers are better at direct fire support

Edited by Huntsman, 29 May 2013 - 11:41 AM.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

Huntsman, on 29 May 2013 - 11:41 AM, said:

- the Jager DD is a better AC20 boat
- Stalkers, Highlanders, and Awesomes..possibly even the DDC are better LRM boats
- Cataphracts, Highlanders, and Stalkers are better at direct fire support

Traditionally...

Light to Medium bracket is 0-50t
Medium to heavy bracket 50-70t
Heavy to Assault bracket is 70t+

The only real comparison imo is a Cat vs Jager since they are both primarily ranged weapons platforms and share the same obnoxiously large cockpit hit boxes. The cat can jump, has a smaller profile, and is more durable than the Jager so I don't see an issue here.

Everything else is apples to oranges, and if we started seeing weight restrictions on matches then the problem completely goes away because you're not up against 6+ assaults every match.

[Franchi]

Ngamok, on 29 May 2013 - 11:26 AM, said:

Catapult has same torso twist as Jenner and raven, but Cicada beats it by 5 degrees. Stalker is much less and Jager and Black Jack are somewhat less. So they aren't really the same. And to top it off, a Catapult beat them all till the most recent nerf to their now current 120 degrees.

Actually the K2 is the same as the better jaggers and black jacks. There is no

Ngamok, on 29 May 2013 - 07:05 AM, said:

insane good torso twist.

the torso twist on the cats is right inline with all the other armless mechs,


When was the last time you piloted a cat?

There was a time when cats DID have great torso twist, and when this was the case I was of the opinion that the size of the head was the cost of doing business in a cat. Since cats no longer get the torso twist the head size needs to be brought back in line with every other mech, just like they did with the twist.

If you want to leave it 10% bigger than other mechs I'll live with that, but what it is now is insane.

Edited by Franchi, 29 May 2013 - 12:12 PM.

[Kellea]

Cats are still good mechs but at the moment inferior to e.g. a Jaeger. This should be balanced.

The reasons for Cats being inferior are multiple but are all based on the overall mech design:

The Cat ist a classic missile-boat. As long as missiles, especially lrm, are broken (yes, they are still broken, lrm are nothing but a bad joke atm) the only Cat-model of choice would be the K2. Maybe a fanatic Streak- or Splatcat wouldn't agree but those are not the majority of Cat-players. The majority atm are K2-players. The K2 has 2 nice ballistic hardpoints but they are placed under the cockpit which is pretty low set itself. Thus you need to show a high profile when taking a shot. This makes you an easy target, especially with the oversized cockpit. In comparison a Jaeger's cockpit is laughably small and the weapons are placed in very high set arms which allows a lower profile.

In addition the Cat in general cores awfully fast. I would have thought this to be normal but was told that the Cat and some other mechs core faste than the majority of mechs. As I have not data but my observations to prove this I am careful to call it a fact. But I'd like to know if other people can confirm this.

[Franchi]

Kellea, on 29 May 2013 - 12:15 PM, said:

Cats are still good mechs but at the moment inferior to e.g. a Jaeger. This should be balanced.

The reasons for Cats being inferior are multiple but are all based on the overall mech design:

The Cat ist a classic missile-boat. As long as missiles, especially lrm, are broken (yes, they are still broken, lrm are nothing but a bad joke atm) the only Cat-model of choice would be the K2. Maybe a fanatic Streak- or Splatcat wouldn't agree but those are not the majority of Cat-players. The majority atm are K2-players. The K2 has 2 nice ballistic hardpoints but they are placed under the cockpit which is pretty low set itself. Thus you need to show a high profile when taking a shot. This makes you an easy target, especially with the oversized cockpit. In comparison a Jaeger's cockpit is laughably small and the weapons are placed in very high set arms which allows a lower profile.

In addition the Cat in general cores awfully fast. I would have thought this to be normal but was told that the Cat and some other mechs core faste than the majority of mechs. As I have not data but my observations to prove this I am careful to call it a fact. But I'd like to know if other people can confirm this.

I am a fanatical SRM cat pilot, and I have been dropping in my 3d (2xERPPC 2xLL) instead if I pull 200 in the 3d (can do that half blasted and half asleep) it is equivalent of 500 in the SRM cat, that's how crappy SRM grouping is. With PPC's i can blow out someones R or L torso by choice from 800m, or I can pop them in the head from 400m or so the damage goes where I put it and I can drop mechs by damaging just one section from long range, the SRM cat can't even keep the damage confined to an Awesome's RT/CT/LT from point blank.


The reason for fast coring cats is the small side torsos, people like to think of them as an advantage, but the drawback is cats have the second easiest CT in the game to hit (only better than awesomes) the really great part about going for a cats CT is that when you miss you get a free headshot.

The downside to the K2 as a ballistic boat is that anyone with JJ's who gets in close is going to stomp you. You cannot aim up to save your own a$$.

The downside for the energy based K2 is that it runs hotter than a similarly loaded 3d, while traveling slower, and not having the JJ's that the 3d can carry while doing all of that.

Edited by Franchi, 29 May 2013 - 12:25 PM.

[Kellea]

I just tried the Streakcat so many people seem to fear. I even had 2 others in my team. So 3 Streakcats in total. They all died without doing much damage. Might be that a light mech should be careful but as the majority is all about assault the streakcat just is a mech of former glory.

[Dagger6T6]

Do you know what the Catapult excels at on the battlefield?

Lookin' secksay as Fukuroi (http://isatlas.teams...?planet=3858764) while striding across the landscape.

CPLT forever.

[Pater Mors]

lol this thread is funny.
50% - Catapult is broken/unviable/crappy/bad
50% - Catapult is fine/viable/possibly OP/great

Working as intended.

[Kellea]

as usual the people who don't play cats say they're op while looking out of their jaegers while the people who look out the oversized windscreen of their cats beg to differ. Cats like lrm are facing kind of an image problem because they once were indeed op or at least top of the notch. Now they're even less than average (just compare the average number of jaegers against the average number of cats in a match - and while you're at it think about how many of the jaegers are lrm-boats and how many of the cats are. Don't you think the majority would choose the cat if it were indeed op or at least better than other models?) but still people whine because they have bad memories or whatever.

[NachoFoot]

Kellea, on 29 May 2013 - 01:16 PM, said:

as usual the people who don't play cats say they're op while looking out of their jaegers while the people who look out the oversized windscreen of their cats beg to differ. Cats like lrm are facing kind of an image problem because they once were indeed op or at least top of the notch. Now they're even less than average (just compare the average number of jaegers against the average number of cats in a match - and while you're at it think about how many of the jaegers are lrm-boats and how many of the cats are. Don't you think the majority would choose the cat if it were indeed op or at least better than other models?) but still people whine because they have bad memories or whatever.

Exactly. I thought I would take my Cplt-A1 out tonight. Its the only Catapult that doesn't get headshot as often. Why? Because people shoot the huge arms and then you're useless.


Oh, and then I brought out the K2 for a couple of games. Game 3: headshot killed from range while moving.

[Ezekeel666]

Dunno about the missile variants, but for every halfway decent ballistic/energy setup the JM6-DD and JM6-S are vastly superior to the CPLT-K2. These JM variants have a 25% increased vertical torso twist, the ballistics in flexible and high shoulder mounts which for most setups are the highest dps weapons and are not heat-capped, a much smaller cockpit which cannot be shot at from the side and rarely gets hit and better torso hit zones for distributing incoming damage. The K2 looks better and that is pretty much it.

The cockpit hit zone has to be reduced to the lower central window section and the side torso zones need to be extended to the front of the head like they do on the similar stalker model. This would make the K2 a real choice compared to the JMs for weapon setups with a pair of strong energy weapons like PPC or LL. Still hoping for a Catapult Hero Mech with a pair of shoulder ballistic mounts - the UAC5 weapon models would look totally awesome on a K2.

[NachoFoot]

Out of the last 100 games in a Jagermech: No headshots. Actually, I've never been headshot.

Out of the last 100 games in a Catapult: at least 15% of all my deaths are headshots.


When is PGI gonna wake up or do we have to play with this bullcrap? There's a reason you don't see many Catapults in games...

[FireDog]

I'm a pretty lousy shot in this game, especially since I'm still trying to play this game with a nerfed joystick (Gee, I miss MW4's control). Anyway, my control is not up to headshotting anything. I aim center of mass most times just to ensure a hit on something. However when I think of the last half dozen times I have managed to headshot a mech I have to admit every last one of them was a catapult. That speaks for itself. That large cockpit is a deathtrap!

[Lykaon]

Nebelfeuer, on 29 May 2013 - 08:08 AM, said:

Yes the cockpit of a CAT does get hit comparably often in a fight - but it actually helps the cat to survive a lot longer most of the time since this dmg would have otherwise been aplied to the CT.

You may suffer lucky shots by high alpha pinpont builds but lets face it: - either you should reconsider your movement patterns or they were just lucky shots(oh sorry, exceptional sniperskill that is^^).
EIther way it´s pinpoint alphas that are to blame again, not cockpitsize.

Jump onto the training grounds with a mech that has a small laser.

Walk up to the catapult there and zoom in on the cockpit and fire.

You will quickly discover that every pannel of cockpit glass is "head".

Now trace that small laser around the non glass portions of the catapults body.

you will likely be suprised to discover the ratio of head to torso hit location when firing on the front of a catapult.

Prior to hit state rewind I would have been supporting the argument that the Catapult head is the disadvantage that balances all the advantages of the chassis.

However now post hit state rewind I find the massive head to be overly punative and it is now more of a handicap than a balancing feature.

[Kitane]

Twice headshoted during last hour, one was while torso twisting in the middle of the jump...he was going for the cockpit, because he fired twice and hit twice.

Seriously now...next time I see a PGI staff claiming Catapult's cockpit is fine, I am going to do something...

...something like crying in the corner, I guess...