237 replies to this topic

[Iacov]

yeah, i can read...but how does this make the catk2 broken?
or the firebrand p2w?

those terms "broken" and "p2w" get tossed around here like it were free hamsters...

[Sephlock]

Iacov, on 04 June 2013 - 01:13 AM, said:

yeah, i can read...but how does this make the catk2 broken?
or the firebrand p2w?

those terms "broken" and "p2w" get tossed around here like it were free hamsters...

He just feels like the K2 has become obsolete, because the Firebrand can do the same thing, but better... but IMHO it's not that bad.

Edited by Sephlock, 04 June 2013 - 02:01 AM.

[Scrawny Cowboy]

Um... aren't the Katapult (K2) and the Jager same tonnage?

[MustrumRidcully]

B3RZ3RK3R, on 04 June 2013 - 01:40 AM, said:

Um... aren't the Katapult (K2) and the Jager same tonnage?

Yes.

[VXJaeger]

This will make a nice addentum to my collection.

[Arctu]

Iacov, on 04 June 2013 - 01:13 AM, said:

yeah, i can read...but how does this make the catk2 broken?
or the firebrand p2w?

those terms "broken" and "p2w" get tossed around here like it were free hamsters...

The Catapult K2 is broken because every setup on the K2 already runs better on the Jagermech 6-S (that is without shoulder mounted energy slots). This is due do the fact that the Catapult gets its cockpit and center torso shot off so easily, that you die a lot earlier. Torso twist speed or angle does not really help because at some point you have to face and shoot your enemy. Versus novice players, unloading their weapons into my side, the K2 is probably fine. Against someone who knows what he is doing and can wait for me to come around, K2s are terribly easy prey.

The same could of course be said about the other Catapult, but the new hero Jagermech would be in direct competition to the K2 - including those high mounted energy slots which have been the only reason left to pick a K2 over the 6-S.

[Teshtube]

B3RZ3RK3R, on 04 June 2013 - 01:40 AM, said:

Um... aren't the Katapult (K2) and the Jager same tonnage?

you want to know what makes them so different?
Torsos, the Jager's are HUGE, while the Catapults are tiny, meaning its much safer for the cat to grab an XL, while the jager is actually designed to take more damage to the torsos thanks to the giant armor flaps on them

so this is why it will not off the K2, the K2 can move around better OR out survive a firebrand, so the k2 is safer to run but the firebrand allows better control of the ballistics.


edit:
to Arctu
well, no, the firebrand is only safer if it runs a standard, and with the ballistic weight, you will end up being so slow you cant really get away, while i will be running a standtard it is indeed a weakness,
the Cat has far better ability to move around for better shots or to get away from enemy fire, while they do take all their damage CT/CP it means XL entines re much safer, meaning they can carry more and run faster

so K2 can move around better while the Firebrand has better positioning of ballistics, both have their weaknesses and both have their streanghts, neither wipes out the other,
and as Sephlock said, they will make the difference bigger with stats like turn angle and stuff like that

Edited by Set Tesh, 04 June 2013 - 05:18 AM.

[Arctu]

Set Tesh, on 04 June 2013 - 05:11 AM, said:

you want to know what makes them so different?
Torsos, the Jager's are HUGE, while the Catapults are tiny, meaning its much safer for the cat to grab an XL, while the jager is actually designed to take more damage to the torsos thanks to the giant armor flaps on them

so this is why it will not off the K2, the K2 can move around better OR out survive a firebrand, so the k2 is safer to run but the firebrand allows better control of the ballistics.


edit:
to Arctu
well, no, the firebrand is only safer if it runs a standard, and with the ballistic weight, you will end up being so slow you cant really get away, while i will be running a standtard it is indeed a weakness,
the Cat has far better ability to move around for better shots or to get away from enemy fire, while they do take all their damage CT/CP it means XL entines re much safer, meaning they can carry more and run faster

so K2 can move around better while the Firebrand has better positioning of ballistics, both have their weaknesses and both have their streanghts, neither wipes out the other,
and as Sephlock said, they will make the difference bigger with stats like turn angle and stuff like that

I've been waiting for that post ...

If you wan't to run ballistics on a Jagermech, use the DD variant - you probably won't need the Firebrand for that. So what you are left with is a mech suited for energy weapons which are pretty light and don't really force you to use an XL. You barely see any Jagermechs builds that rely to equal parts of energy and ballistic weapons, since focussing on one group is superior when you have the hardpoints for it (I'm not talking about throwing a medium laser in here and there, gauss with ppc is the exception).

There is no advantage in having smaller side torsos. All damage, that would have been distributed amoung your side torsos and your center will concentrate on the center torso alone. Even with an XL engine, you can use your side torsos for protecting your center to some degree, by first showing you left and then your right side for istance. All you are missing on the Jagermech is an excuse for having fitted an XL engine.

I would really recommend you to try if a Jagermech with the same engine feels slower than a Catapult. I've got 3 Catapults and 3 Jagermechs in my hangar, all of them at master skill level, and I can't make out much of a difference in terms of speed or handling. I spent the last few days trying my K2 setups on the jagermechs and all I noticed was a very big increase in survivability (and the occasional situation that I couldn't fire because of a too steep angle, but that won't be the case with the Firebrand).

Just join any match and look at the mech distribution. How many Catapults do you see, how many Jagermechs? At the moment, it is very likely to have 2-3 Jagermechs in your team. I even had the pleasure of seeing 6 of them in one of my games during the weekend, while me not being one of them. There is no reason to add another overpowered Jagermech to the game, especially if it takes away the role from an already underutilized mech. Fix the Catapult by making its cockpit hitbox smaller and the side torsos slightly larger, then add the Firebrand.

The only way I can live with a Firebrand is when the two additional energy slots are in the center torso, so all you can equip there are small oder medium lasers. That would give the Firebrand the role of the energy/ballistic-hybrid, for whatever this is worth. Still, the K2 needs fixing ...

[AlmightyAeng]

It can go faster, and hit harder. It looks better, and it gives you an XP and C-Bill bonus. Add in that I love my Jagers...wow, PGI...you may have just created a Hero 'Mech I'll actually buy.


http://mwomercs.com/...ns-at-10am-pdt/

Quote

New Hero Mech
"Firebrand" JM6-FB
Tonnage: 65
Engine: 280 XL

• Top Speed: 69.8 kph
  
• Max Engine Rating: 340

Torso Movement:

• 100 degrees to each side.
  
• 20 degrees up and down.

Arm Movement:

• 0 degrees to each side.
  
• 35 degrees up and down.

Armor: 336 (Standard)

Internal Structure: Endo-Steel
Weapons & Equipment:

• Left Arm: PPC, AC/2
  
• Left Torso: Medium Pulse Laser
  
• Right Torso: Medium Pulse Laser
  
• Right Arm: PPC, AC/2

Hardpoints:

• Left Arm: 1 Ballistic, 1 Energy
  
• Left Torso: 2 Energy, 1 AMS
  
• Right Torso: 2 Energy
  
• Right Arm: 1 Ballistic, 1 Energy

Heat Sinks: 15 Double

Jump Jets: n/a
ECM Capable? No
Module Slots: 2
30% C-Bill Bonus

[Arctu]

6 energy slots? Are you kidding me?

[Praehotec8]

My stalkers just LOVE jagers with XL engines. I find it's much easier to take their side torsos out than get the catapult headbox (large as it is...). I think the K2 will still have the edge in terms of survivability.

[Waking One]

2 ballistics 6 energy, with a max engine rating of 340. It's got better stats than any heavy in the game really, more hardpoints and all.

first p2w hero right there, and there wont be huge whining about it either i bet

*facepalm*

[AlmightyAeng]

Waking One, on 04 June 2013 - 10:03 AM, said:

2 ballistics 6 energy, with a max engine rating of 340. It's got better stats than any heavy in the game really, more hardpoints and all.

first p2w hero right there, and there wont be huge whining about it either i bet

*facepalm*

Better stats than most...but it depends. It's only 65 tons. 6 energy and 2 ballistic...with the possibly of a 340 max engine. You're going to have to pick and choose.

Do you cram a huge XL engine and all the things you can fit into it, and run incredibly hot?

Do you stick with a huge Standard and run with a reduced weapons capacity?

Do you stick with your smaller, slower engine and run chock full of weapons and cooler?

Because of the tonnage you still won't be able to run heavily armed, super fast AND cool.

Pay-2-win? I could see arguments made for or against...in this case, though, all of the 'advantages' do come with a pretty big disadvantage, too.

Edited by Ghost Badger, 04 June 2013 - 10:14 AM.

[Waking One]

Ghost Badger, on 04 June 2013 - 10:13 AM, said:

Better stats than most...but it depends. It's only 65 tons. 6 energy and 2 ballistic...with the possibly of a 340 max engine. You're going to have to pick and choose.

Do you cram a huge XL engine and all the things you can fit into it, and run incredibly hot?

Do you stick with a huge Standard and run with a reduced weapons capacity?

Do you stick with your smaller, slower engine and run chock full of weapons and cooler?

Because of the tonnage you still won't be able to run heavily armed, super fast AND cool.

Pay-2-win? I could see arguments made for or against...in this case, though, all of the 'advantages' do come with a pretty big disadvantage, too.

The fact it gives you all those possibilities in one mech, with added higher hardpoint count than any other heavy makes it blatantly p2w.

Also it makes the k2 completely useless, unlike previous jagers where arguments could be made either way.

[Skydrive]

Waking One, on 04 June 2013 - 10:21 AM, said:

The fact it gives you all those possibilities in one mech, with added higher hardpoint count than any other heavy makes it blatantly p2w.

Also it makes the k2 completely useless, unlike previous jagers where arguments could be made either way.

More then a Jager DD???

[Waking One]

Skydrive, on 04 June 2013 - 10:22 AM, said:

More then a Jager DD???

Oh, no, you got me there. Except the DD has 2 completely useless hardpoints unless you're going to boat machineguns, which are useless so...

[AlmightyAeng]

To be fair, all they did was rearrange the number of hardpoints already on it, reversing the DD.

DD - 6 ballistic, 2 energy
S - 4 ballistic, 4 energy
A - 2 ballistic, 2 energy, 4 missiles
FB - 2 ballistic, 6 energy

The big change is the engine size...and they've done that for other Hero 'mechs.

As far as 'that many options' translating to Pay2Win...the other Jager's have simliar options.

[Waking One]

Ghost Badger, on 04 June 2013 - 10:27 AM, said:

To be fair, all they did was rearrange the number of hardpoints already on it, reversing the DD.

DD - 6 ballistic, 2 energy
S - 4 ballistic, 4 energy
A - 2 ballistic, 2 energy, 4 missiles
FB - 2 ballistic, 6 energy

The big change is the engine size...and they've done that for other Hero 'mechs.

As far as 'that many options' translating to Pay2Win...the other Jager's have simliar options.

Seriously?

Energy weapons are so much more weight and slot efficient, how is that even a comparison?

[Arctu]

Oh, I totally missed the max engine rating of 340. So it's even faster and probably more maneuvrable than the K2 now ... this has to be the good handle PGI has on balancing things. Wonder if Firebrand will have only one more module slots than the K2 like the other Jagermechs or it was decided to double that advantage just for the fun of it.

65 tons can be a lot of firepower and is far from being a disadvantage, its exatly the same as the other Jagermechs or Catapults.

Wonder when the first mechs with Dual AC20 and 6 medium lasers will show up. Of course you need to downsize the engine a bit ... but having a 70 damage alpha is kind of sick ...

[SMDMadCow]

Waking One, on 04 June 2013 - 10:28 AM, said:

Seriously?

Energy weapons are so much more weight and slot efficient, how is that even a comparison?

Will the E HPs matter when people run them as AC40 Jagers?