391 replies to this topic

[Lykaon]

Perhaps you are seeing this through a narrowed view?

Misery is unique among Stalkers for it's ballistic hardpoint but is this ballistic hardpoint unique among assault mechs? when compared is Misery pay to win when faced by a Highlander? The Highlander can also mount a ballistic has energy and missile hardpoints yet is 5 tons larger and has jumpjets.

Unique varients do not possess unique hardpoints or weapons the only uniqueness is among their piers in the specific chassis group they are derived from.The uniqueness becomes less relavent when compared to piers in their tonnage class and this relevence is further deluted when there is a larger pool of peirs in a tonnage class.

[The Cheese]

You've really got something against hero mechs, don't you Thomas.

[MonkeyCheese]

Thomas Covenant, on 31 May 2013 - 01:12 AM, said:

It is not a question of the mech but the man.

What a pointless reply to my post with facts about why hero mechs are not at an advantage in their weight/ability classes...

[Thomas Covenant]

The Cheese, on 31 May 2013 - 01:12 AM, said:

You've really got something against hero mechs, don't you Thomas.

lol no. great idea that could use some refining.

[Carrioncrows]

[Thomas Covenant]

Carrioncrows, on 31 May 2013 - 01:16 AM, said:

[The Cheese]

Thomas Covenant, on 31 May 2013 - 01:15 AM, said:

lol no. great idea that could use some refining.

Ok, You've got something against buying hero mechs with real money. How's that?

I'm not trying to have a stab, I just don't agree with your argument. It's basically the same as before; that a mech can be considered pay to win if an individual player performs better in it than in other mechs.

[Thomas Covenant]

The Cheese, on 31 May 2013 - 01:19 AM, said:

Ok, You've got something against buying hero mechs with real money. How's that?

I'm not trying to have a stab, I just don't agree with your argument. It's basically the same as before; that a mech can be considered pay to win if an individual player performs better in it than in other mechs.

What part do you disagree with?

Lykaon, on 31 May 2013 - 01:12 AM, said:

Perhaps you are seeing this through a narrowed view?

Misery is unique among Stalkers for it's ballistic hardpoint but is this ballistic hardpoint unique among assault mechs? when compared is Misery pay to win when faced by a Highlander? The Highlander can also mount a ballistic has energy and missile hardpoints yet is 5 tons larger and has jumpjets.

Unique varients do not possess unique hardpoints or weapons the only uniqueness is among their piers in the specific chassis group they are derived from.The uniqueness becomes less relavent when compared to piers in their tonnage class and this relevence is further deluted when there is a larger pool of peirs in a tonnage class.

Do you have a single mech you are best at? If you did, and they took it away and made it pay to play hero variant, is it pay to win, by making you pay to play in it?

[The Cheese]

My problem with it is that it's based on an "if". For something to be considered pay to win, I'd argue that the condition that makes it so must be constant across the board. If ALL players performed better in hero mechs than free mechs, then yeah, I'd be more inclined to agree. However, I don't believe that to be the case.

Edited by The Cheese, 31 May 2013 - 01:25 AM.

[Thomas Covenant]

The way I word this this way is because of my perspective. To me I see a connection from something you are good with and something you would be natural with if given the chance.

[Thomas Covenant]

The Cheese, on 31 May 2013 - 01:25 AM, said:

My problem with it is that it's based on an "if". For something to be considered pay to win, I'd argue that the condition that makes it so must be constant across the board. If ALL players performed better in hero mechs than free mechs, then yeah, I'd be more inclined to agree. However, I don't believe that to be the case.

If one person performed better in one hero mech. He would have to pay for his best mech. In simplest terms, for this one man on Earth, not being able to obtain it any other way, this mech he does best in is a pay only item. What is your argument? How is it not pay to win for this man? Or in our world any man like him?

[The Cheese]

Thomas Covenant, on 31 May 2013 - 01:31 AM, said:

If one person performed better in one hero mech. He would have to pay for his best mech. In simplest terms, for this one man on Earth, not being able to obtain it any other way, this mech he does best in is a pay only item. What is your argument? How is it not pay to win for this man? Or in our world any man like him?

My argument is that this is not the case for all players, therefore it is not pay to win. For something to be 'pay to win' it must be objectively better than the free alternatives. That is not the case here.

[Taj the White Tiger]

Thomas Covenant, on 30 May 2013 - 11:33 PM, said:

If I give you a sword, a bow, and spear which you have never used either of, and I tell you to train with them...

If you say you are best with the spear...

If we go back to when you had never used them, would you still be best with the spear?

No, you have never used any of them.

Another question, would you still be best with the spear, if you tried them again?

If yes, then I believe hero mechs are pay to win.



Two gladiators enter an arena. They are presented with weapons. These weapons have been used by gladiators over and over, all have been used to win with roughly the same amount. The weapons are said to be balanced.

One gladiator is funded by a wealthy master, he gets a few more weapons. No weapon that has won more on average than any of the others.

The less fortunate gladiator has a smaller selection to choose from. The gladiator notices that one of the weapons the other has that he doesn't, is one hes trained his whole life with. One he knows like the back of his hand.

A player loads up mech warrior, he is going to buy a mech. He looks through the list. He sees a hero mech, it has a unique loadout. Unfortunately he is unable to pay the $20 for it. No matter as all the mechs are balanced, so he is at no disadvantage.

But if he had played it, he would realize it is the mech he is best at.

Is it pay to win?

Am i the only one who reads this as NERF SKILL PLOX

[Thomas Covenant]

The Cheese, on 31 May 2013 - 01:25 AM, said:

My problem with it is that it's based on an "if". For something to be considered pay to win, I'd argue that the condition that makes it so must be constant across the board. If ALL players performed better in hero mechs than free mechs, then yeah, I'd be more inclined to agree. However, I don't believe that to be the case.

You have a problem with if? Can you take it for granted that there are some people whos best mech, given enough trials over and over, show to be a hero mech? Hero mechs are about a tenth of all variants. Can you assume that, or is that not possible? Really, I bet you could.

The Cheese, on 31 May 2013 - 01:34 AM, said:

My argument is that this is not the case for all players, therefore it is not pay to win. For something to be 'pay to win' it must be objectively better than the free alternatives. That is not the case here.

it is objectively better, if someone performs better in one.

Edited by Thomas Covenant, 31 May 2013 - 01:40 AM.

[Thomas Covenant]

Taj the White Tiger, on 31 May 2013 - 01:35 AM, said:

Am i the only one who reads this as NERF SKILL PLOX

Im sorry, where do you see that? My aim was quite the opposite.

Unless you mean skill at obtaining money, which I will not presume to be the case.

Edited by Thomas Covenant, 31 May 2013 - 01:44 AM.

[Ralgas]

Thomas Covenant, on 31 May 2013 - 01:38 AM, said:

You have a problem with if? Can you take it for granted that there are some people whos best mech, given enough trials over and over, show to be a hero mech? Hero mechs are about a tenth of all variants. Can you assume that, or is that not possible? Really, I bet you could.

But will it be that way for permanently, given shifting weapon balance? You can't be as sure of your assertion either.

[Belorion]

Hero mechs are not pay to win. Every hero mech configuration can be done with a different mech.

[Thomas Covenant]

Ralgas, on 31 May 2013 - 01:44 AM, said:

But will it be that way for permanently, given shifting weapon balance? You can't be as sure of your assertion either.

So you best changes with game balances. You never really have more or less of a change in a chance of a hero mech being your best. You could argue since this is the same for everybody it is balanced, but those who pay can actually access their best, when it is a hero mech.

Why NOT just release the standard variants? Maybe it wont sell as well, maybe this crack in the design philosophy isnt as valuable, but to me it matters, and maybe to others to.

[Fireside]

This thread lowered my iq by 12 points.

[Thomas Covenant]

Belorion, on 31 May 2013 - 01:47 AM, said:

Hero mechs are not pay to win. Every hero mech configuration can be done with a different mech.

I disagree.

Fireside, on 31 May 2013 - 01:50 AM, said:

This thread lowered my iq by 12 points.

Maybe you needed to unlearn some things that were holding you back.