391 replies to this topic

[The Cheese]

Looks like we're not going to come to any agreement on this. Good luck with the thread and see you in game.

I'm gonna go roll some people in my Misery.

[Jam the Bam]

Thomas Covenant, on 31 May 2013 - 01:38 AM, said:

it is objectively better, if someone performs better in one.

Someone is 1 person who you cannot prove exists, if it is not pay to win for the player base as a whole or at least as an average then I don't feel your argument carries any weight, you can't design or balance a game based entirely on a single hypothetical subject who may or may not exist.

The only way to decide if Hero mechs are pay to win is if any average player, not a single person, gains an advantage through having access to a hero mech. Which so far has not been proven for any of them, though Ilya is borderline.

[SmoothCriminal]

Well disagree or not, it's largely the truth.

Death Knell - If you're not in a commando with 3 SSRMs and ECM you're in the wrong version

X5 - the 3M is definitely better given the current meta

YLW - good that it can mount an ac20, though lack of any other substantial hardpoints makes it pretty poor.

Fang/Flame - it's a dragon, which no one really uses

ILM - you have an augument here, it's one of the few mechs that can mount 3 UAC5s and can dominate with them, but other cataphracts have just as effective (if not more so) builds

Pretty Baby - An awesome that goes quickly but has awful hardpoints

Misery - nothing here can be done that cant be better obtained on an Atlas RS

So no, not pay to win.

[Thomas Covenant]

Jammerben87, on 31 May 2013 - 01:59 AM, said:

Someone is 1 person who you cannot prove exists, if it is not pay to win for the player base as a whole or at least as an average then I don't feel your argument carries any weight, you can't design or balance a game based entirely on a single hypothetical subject who may or may not exist.

The only way to decide if Hero mechs are pay to win is if any average player, not a single person, gains an advantage through having access to a hero mech. Which so far has not been proven for any of them, though Ilya is borderline.

Hold on there "cannot prove exist". A tenth of all mechs are hero varients and you really want to run with "you aregument is invalid because we cant PROVE some people are best wth that 10th"? I reject it outright. Good day.

The Cheese, on 31 May 2013 - 01:58 AM, said:

Looks like we're not going to come to any agreement on this. Good luck with the thread and see you in game.

I'm gonna go roll some people in my Misery.

Good luck sir!
And may you have many hard won battles.

Edited by Thomas Covenant, 31 May 2013 - 02:09 AM.

[Gelion]

Well if you believe they will add mc rewards when community warfare gets started properly, then why are you arguing the need for change? So would you like these hero mechs be priced through the roof to account for the cbill bonus?

I am glad that at least you are remaining constructive, albeit philosophical

[El Bandito]

Thomas Covenant, on 30 May 2013 - 11:53 PM, said:

My question for you is do you have a mech you are best at? If you did have one you were best at, and they changed it to a here mech(yours was taken but they gave the cbills back), if then would you consider your best mech to be pay to win?

If they changed my A1 to Hero mech, then I will consider it to be P2W. It can do things no one else can.

I'm just itching for the SRM buffs so I can two shot people again.

Edited by El Bandito, 31 May 2013 - 02:17 AM.

[MonkeyCheese]

Fail troll thread is fail, please put this deep into the periphery already, as apparently if you are a skilled player YOUR SKILLS make a hero mech pay to win, not the hardpoints...

[El Bandito]

MonkeyCheese, on 31 May 2013 - 02:14 AM, said:

Fail troll thread is fail, please put this deep into the periphery already, as apparently if you are a skilled player YOUR SKILLS make a hero mech pay to win, not the hardpoints...

Hardpoints is the reason I roll with my Streakcat/Splatcat. If they made A1 to hero mech only, then I will cry unfair.

Edited by El Bandito, 31 May 2013 - 03:00 AM.

[Jam the Bam]

Thomas Covenant, on 31 May 2013 - 02:05 AM, said:

Hold on there "cannot prove exist". A tenth of all mechs are hero varients and you really want to run with "you aregument is invalid because we cant PROVE some people are best wth that 10th"? I reject it outright. Good day.

First you might want to start spell checking your arguments before posting.

Second: You Can't. If you can then show me the statistics that proves that there are people out there that dominate in particular hero mechs AND that there are enough of those people that they will affect the game enough to warrant a change. Otherwise you are just whining in a more elaborate manner than all the others on this forum.

Edited by Jammerben87, 31 May 2013 - 02:39 AM.

[Nick Drezary]

If hero mech's were pay2win, then they would dominate at the tournament's. It is not so.If they were pay2win, then in 8v8 there would be tonns of heroes, but you are lucky if see one muromeths on the enemy team. So no, they are not P2W

[LockeJaw]

Thomas Covenant, on 31 May 2013 - 12:15 AM, said:

I just ask the question are hero mechs pay to win. I found my answer. You may see the distinction as small. You might not some day. But maybe there is nothing stopping you from buying a variant you really like with money.

You asked the question, while having already made up your mind as to what the "correct" answer was.

Why you decided to whinge about it on the forums about it is beyond me.

[OneEyed Jack]

It's funny, reading this thread and looking at the OP's name reminds me of the time I tried to read the Thomas Covenant books. I was a teenager working at a used book store, so I picked the first book up there. Some lunatic had gone through it writing in the margins about supposed clues in the writing that proved the entire story was true, and that Stephen Donaldson was actually ghost-writing a biography, disguising it as fiction because people weren't ready to know the truth.

I'm sure the name is just a coincidence, but the OP and his "arguments" remind me a lot of that unknown lunatic.

For the record, it was so distracting and disturbing that I never finished the book, and have never been able to bring myself to read the series.

[James DeGriz]

On a point of logic OP, consider this:

If a hero mech didn't have the potential to a be A. Players "most optimal hardpoint layout for his play style", what would be the incentive to buy it? And further to that, what makes it any different to any other variant within the same chassis? You can't factor in the C-Bill bonus simply because in order to really captilise on that, you have to be moderately successful with that mech in the first place.

I think most people have a favourite variant whether it be the Hero version or not, and the non hero versions you can pay for with MC as well. Using your argument, those variants are P2W as well.

So, whilst I do understand what you're saying, I think your understanding of what P2W is, is inaccurate.

Edited by James DeGriz, 31 May 2013 - 04:00 AM.

[Tvae]

Don't worry OP, the point you make is perfectly logical. Unfortunately, few people seem to consider the ramifications of logic in arguments anymore, so I won't go too far into it. I've argued this line of thought for far too long on multiple occasions, and in the end the dissenters always inevitably react with either silence or by quoting irrelevancies.

Yes, Hero Mechs are pay to win. It is by a small technicality of logic, admittedly, but it's the truth. However, the only time this fact really make a huge difference would be in competition play with weight restrictions, where you can't simply say 'Oh hey, there's a slightly heavier mech that does everything better than this Hero, I'll choose that!'. But, if you're really to the point where you're playing competitively, I guess you would be less against paying a bit to get your perfect fit. (Unfortunately, saying such things is also what leads to the mindset that other p2w features are acceptable, so I'm still not sure I even agree with it).

Admittedly, PGI has done a fair job of making sure Hero Mechs aren't unbalanced by weakening them slightly. There's actually reasons why this itself is a bad idea (not from a P2W perspective but from a marketing one), but they didn't seem to care about those reasons either, so whatever. They're free to miss out on money if they want.

To sum up this small rant... It's been along time since this issue was laid to rest, and although it warms my heart to know that some people still rally to its call, the acceptance has clearly already begun to set in among the playerbase at large. It's sad, but was kind of expected.

If anyone really doesn't get the argument in the original post, or still believes that exclusive hero mechs aren't a bad idea from a marketing, gameplay, and community perspective, please feel free to go dig up some of the old forum posts from when this issue first arose where multiple people proved logically the problems this issue has, then were ignored because those arguing couldn't think of a response.

[Thundercles]

Dornhal, on 30 May 2013 - 11:39 PM, said:

What you are saying, is that one spear is red, and one is blue. You have to pay 20$ to get the red one, and thats paytowin.

You are wrong, and spent what seems to be a lot of effort to prove that, in a lot of metaphors.

The red ones go faster.

-Sorry, no, I don't have anything constructive to add.

[Joseph Mallan]

Thomas Covenant, on 31 May 2013 - 12:02 AM, said:

Extra cbills? You think hero mechs are just custom paint and extra cbills? No. They are unique weapons. Sometimes even having a whole category of weapon not presented on any of the others of it's type. The X-5 the only missile Cicada, Misery, the only ballistic Stalker. They are all unique and pay items.

Becuase it has a unique load out does not make it P2W. I have owned and sold, YLW(x2), Pretty Baby, HeavyMetal(X2), Ilya, Death Knell, Fang. None were better then the rest of their kind, none gave me an unfair advantage.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 31 May 2013 - 04:33 AM.

[Ngamok]

What I got out of this is and let's use the Dragon as an example:

- He does well with dragons. Loves the hit boxes and how well they can spread damage around. Big CT, Small sides, arms likes shields.
- There are two Hero Dragons (The Fang is close to one of the others I think). He wants to use the Flame to put 4 Large Lasers in the arms because he does good with arm mounted lasers in the other dragons but each of those has a ballistic in one of the arms which he doesn't like as much.
- Like I said he does well on Dragons as a pilot but wants to know if maybe the Flame will work for him better but he'll never know because he is unwilling (or unable) to pay money to buy it.
- So in essence we will never know because of the pay wall and IT MIGHT be something he would do exceptional in but because of it, will never know.

That is what I got out of it. Now before I go one, I own the X-5, Flame, Ilya, and Heavy Metal for various reasons. I understand what you are trying to say, but to be honest, the MC mechs are there for the company to continue to make money. Maybe in a year, they might phase them out as new stuff gets added and those of us who bought them will have something even more unique, like a collectors item. If that's not the case and they make them C-Bill purchasable in the future, where would they make their money from new players that might like a particular chassis that offers a MC and C-Bill version of the same mech.

And by the way for me personally:

I do better in the Flame than my other two dragons in a brawl but not at range.
I do better in my HGN-733C than I do in my Heavy metal and 732
I do equally well in all my CTFs (Ilya, 3D, 2X)
I do better in my CDA-3M than I do the X-5 and do the same in my 2A

So if you really want to find out, spend the cash. Support the game that allows you to fight in giant robots. if you really like a particular chassis, then there shouldn't be a problem spending the money. For me it was easy to spend money on the Highlander because it is by far my most loved IS mech from artwork I've seen on it. The X-5 I bought to support Garth and his love for his Cicadas. The Flame I bought for the hard point layouts because I love arm mounted lasers and love my HBK-4SP solely because I can mount 4 lasers in those arms as well. The Ilya I bought just because I liked the CTFs. I actually owned (not any more) 4 variants of them but sold my 4X.

Post turned out to long.

TLDR - Not Pay to Win. Pay to Explore and Support.

Edited by Ngamok, 31 May 2013 - 06:34 AM.

[RG Notch]

I find it funny that people still try to reason with the P2W loonies. No amount of reasoning will work when you starting basis is completely flawed. The basic premise, is that if you can only get it with real money, no matter what it is P2W absent cosmetics. Once starting from a flawed premise, combined with other people who just don't eve want to spend anything to support the game's development and you have these threads.
I find it simply summed up by "If it's not a ******* hat it's P2W". Seems to work for them although they won't frame it that way and honestly some of them simply are misguided and don't understand what P2W means though they use the acronym all the time. Much like people don't understand what balance means but continue to use it all the time.
Anyways, back to the regularly scheduled nonsense.

[MustrumRidcully]

The important question to me is - why can I get a 30 % earning bonus paid via MC only for a few "hero" mechs. Why can't I upgrade my favorite non-heroic mech with these bonuses?

Otherwise, yes, Hero mechs can easily become OP, if they simply offer options that are more powerful than others (not merely different). If weapon balance is good, this can probably be avoided. If it's bad... Less so.

[AlmightyAeng]

I don't believe Hero 'mechs are P2W. I believe they are 'pay to be different and earn rewards faster in exchange for real money.'

Each Hero 'mech is different from the other variants, but are balanced within their own set of chassis by disadvantages, too.

Hero 'mechs don't make weapons perform any better, unlike WoT. When MWO starts selling consumables that CAN'T also be bought with C-bills, or 'golden ammo,' then I'll jump on the P2W bandwagon.

I have yet to find a hero 'mech that I can't copy as far as loadout goes with a different chassis, albeit without the XP and C-Bill bonus.

You're paying for a pretty paintjob, a unique hardpoint setup (for THAT chassis) and the ability to make bank a little faster. That's it. Doesn't mean I still won't stomp your hero 'mechs in my C-Bill bought variants.