391 replies to this topic

[Thomas Covenant]

Quote

This is true. This will not always be true. Tournaments and arranged fights and other non elo based confrontations for example. In these cases you having access to your best mech increases your chances of winning outright.

SpartanFiredog317, on 31 May 2013 - 04:10 PM, said:

if a player can carry a team to victory in a hero mech, they could do the same thing in another chassis.

You seem to be having difficulty with the words I chose. My statement, phrased another way could be

"In these cases you having access to your best mech increases your chances of winning. This increased chance of winning is absolute. It is a higher chance of winning, even in a team game, then without."

I did not mean necessarily, that having your best mech you will always win the match, but it couldn't hurt your chances!

Edited by Thomas Covenant, 31 May 2013 - 04:35 PM.

[NachoFoot]

Rapunzel, her hair let down

[LockeJaw]

Why the hell isn't this thread in K-Town yet? Or did Niko get his privileges revoked after the Gdisc fiasco?

[Thomas Covenant]

Ngamok, on 31 May 2013 - 06:27 AM, said:

What I got out of this is and let's use the Dragon as an example:

- He does well with dragons. Loves the hit boxes and how well they can spread damage around. Big CT, Small sides, arms likes shields.
- There are two Hero Dragons (The Fang is close to one of the others I think). He wants to use the Flame to put 4 Large Lasers in the arms because he does good with arm mounted lasers in the other dragons but each of those has a ballistic in one of the arms which he doesn't like as much.
- Like I said he does well on Dragons as a pilot but wants to know if maybe the Flame will work for him better but he'll never know because he is unwilling (or unable) to pay money to buy it.
- So in essence we will never know because of the pay wall and IT MIGHT be something he would do exceptional in but because of it, will never know.

That is what I got out of it. Now before I go one, I own the X-5, Flame, Ilya, and Heavy Metal for various reasons. I understand what you are trying to say, but to be honest, the MC mechs are there for the company to continue to make money. Maybe in a year, they might phase them out as new stuff gets added and those of us who bought them will have something even more unique, like a collectors item. If that's not the case and they make them C-Bill purchasable in the future, where would they make their money from new players that might like a particular chassis that offers a MC and C-Bill version of the same mech.

There are many ways to support something, the current form of this incarnation is at the expense of the design philosophy.

Quote

If that's not the case and they make them C-Bill purchasable in the future, where would they make their money from new players that might like a particular chassis that offers a MC and C-Bill version of the same mech

That is very specific. For one take a step back and see there is a lot of ways for them to make money. Paints, Cockpit items, and who knows what with community warfare.

Second in your example, I'd say the new player who would prefer the painted cbill boost version, or wants it right away.

Edited by Thomas Covenant, 31 May 2013 - 04:48 PM.

[El Bandito]

Thomas Covenant, on 31 May 2013 - 03:04 PM, said:

But what if the situation was the same, same question, but instead of the A1 being your best because it was overpowered, it was your best because you were so good with it? Is paying to get your best mech pay to win?

Why not the combination of both? A1 is a good mech and I have tons of experience piloting one. Especially during its darkest days, pre-May patch.

Funny thing is, if I didn't choose to be different from all the PPC boating meta sheep, I never would have laid my eyes on the A1 back in March. Hence A1 is my very special mech--my hipster mech, so to speak.

I probably wouldn't have bought it with MC though, I never bought hero mechs with MC. Fatlas earns me plenty of money when the situation rises. Still, my wallet is open to any decent Atlas Hero mech, or Kerensky's Orion ride.

Edited by El Bandito, 31 May 2013 - 05:24 PM.

[Huntsman]

SmoothCriminal, on 31 May 2013 - 02:03 AM, said:

Misery - nothing here can be done that cant be better obtained on an Atlas RS

If you're building Misery as you would build an RS (gauss plus energy), or as a brawler, you're doing it wrong. I can tell ya, throughout the course of an evening I elicit from my fellows in 4-mans more than one "holy hell Huntsman" in relation to my end of match kills and damage output on the scoreboard with this mech.

Is it P2W? No, it's comparable to what I can do with a number of other Stalker builds. It's better than those builds in some ways, and worse in others; it's overall balanced however. The upside is that the Misery is the first hero mech that has one critical advantage... it can perform in the same role, and with similar combat effectiveness compared to other variants of its chassis that are themselves very effective. It does this while also giving a cbill bonus.

Even the Ilya that folks like to talk about...lets face it, the Cataphract makes for a terrible dakka build. Even with an XL engine its slow and its side torsos should come standard with bullsyes on them. The 3D is the best Phract variant of the meta, and were the devs to have made the Ilya a variant that could perform the role that the 3D can with similar competancy, while offering a Cbill bonus, it may well have been a good mech. As it is, the Ilya is a free kill for my 3D poptart or Misery.

Edited by Huntsman, 31 May 2013 - 06:53 PM.

[El Bandito]

Huntsman, on 31 May 2013 - 06:40 PM, said:

If you're building Misery as you would build an RS (gauss plus energy), or as a brawler, you're doing it wrong. I can tell ya, throughout the course of an evening I elicit from my fellows in 4-mans more than one "holy hell Huntsman" in relation to my end of match kills and damage output on the scoreboard with this mech. Is it P2W? No, it's comparable to what I can do with a number of other Stalker builds. It's better than those builds in some ways, and worse in others; it's overall balanced however. The upside is that the Misery is the first hero mech that has one critical advantage... it can perform in the same role, and with similar combat effectiveness compared to other variants of its chassis that are themselves very effective. It does this while also giving a cbill bonus. Even the Ilya that folks like to talk about...lets face it, the Cataphract makes for a terrible dakka build. Even with an XL engine its slow and its side torso should come standard with bullsyes on them. The 3D is the best Phract variant of the meta, and were the devs to have made the Ilya a variant that could perform the role that the 3D can with similar competancy, while offering a Cbill bonus, it may well have been a good mech. As it is, the Ilya is a free kill for my 3D poptart or Misery.

That's only after the snipe meta gained foothold. Ilya was leader of the scoreboard before then, pre-March more precisely. Back then, it kinda felt like Ilya was P2W. If I wasn't being an *** about never to spend money for F2P games, I woulda bought Ilya without a thought.

Edited by El Bandito, 31 May 2013 - 06:57 PM.

[Huntsman]

El Bandito, on 31 May 2013 - 06:54 PM, said:

That's only after the snipe meta gained foothold. Ilya was leader of the scoreboard before then, pre-March more precise. Back then, it felt like Ilya was P2W.

Ah yes, pre-March when I was lol-stomping Ilyas with my 3F Stalker...

...and then pre SRM nerf, when I was yawning my way through dakkaphracts with my 5M Stalker...

At the end of the day the Stalker is a beast of a machine in most of its iterations, and Misery does a good job of following in that fine tradition.

Edited by Huntsman, 31 May 2013 - 07:02 PM.

[Thomas Covenant]

WarHippy, on 31 May 2013 - 07:52 AM, said:

My best mech in theory would be the Urbanmech, but it isn't available to me so I am always at a disadvantage to all the other players whose best mech is in game. Therefore you are all cheaters and should be banned. My logic is flawless per the OPs standards so I vote he be banned first for cheating.

Yes, but that is not pay to win. Unless someone is paying the devs to add mechs to their favor. That not being the case, its a separate issue.

[Pater Mors]

If the poor gladiator has a regular spear and the rich gladiator has a regular spear and a shield, it's not pay to win.

If the poor gladiator has a regular spear and the rich gladiator has an AR-15, it's pay to win.

[Sephlock]

[Gelion]

Thomas,
I would claim that what you are saying is pay for advantage (sometimes) rather than pay2win. What most people are arguing is that logically to assess pay2win one must assess MWO as compared to other games. The cbill bonus enables people to get mechs faster, but does not increase a person's chance of winning. The unique variant, has purposely been balanced so as to make it unique for its mech, but not for its weight class. The custom paint skin adds nothing to a person's skill, thereby not making it pay2win. If every unique variant had a normal mech which could do the same job, would that make it pay2win? I agree with your statement that some people might be better in variants that they cannot own (as of yet) with no skill, however, isn't practice and experience far better than initial skill. I have the jenner D and the jenner f (c), I know the more I play one, the better I am at it, regardless that I paid cbills for the f(c). Your argument, while logical, is unable to conclusively state that this flaw is game breaking, when the absence of such an avenue of forced purchase would likely drive other things to be needed to be bought using cbills, as this game can be played completely for free and still be competitive.

[Fate 6]

I understand what OP is saying. Having a hero mech can be pay to win in some situations, when a player uses that mech to increase their win percentage.

I don't think it's a huge deal right now as none of them are outright broken now that the Ilya isn't a superstar (because that **** was broken back in the day). We are supposed to eventually get a way to unlock them without using MC (faction points, I think it was called), unless they have scrapped that idea in favor of greed.

[Sephlock]

Yen Lo Wang and Pretty Baby are PTL though.

[One Medic Army]

Let me put it this way:
Hero mechs are less P2W than good computer hardware and/or a gaming mouse.

Therefore I consider them under the threshold for what I consider P2W on the scale of in-game purchases.

Everything's shades of grey, the question is when you start calling something black or white.

[Sephlock]

How about special golf balls or special golf clubs?

Or that one banned fishing lure.

[Thomas Covenant]

Gelion, on 31 May 2013 - 08:51 PM, said:

Thomas,
I would claim that what you are saying is pay for advantage (sometimes) rather than pay2win. What most people are arguing is that logically to assess pay2win one must assess MWO as compared to other games. The cbill bonus enables people to get mechs faster, but does not increase a person's chance of winning. The unique variant, has purposely been balanced so as to make it unique for its mech, but not for its weight class. The custom paint skin adds nothing to a person's skill, thereby not making it pay2win. If every unique variant had a normal mech which could do the same job, would that make it pay2win? I agree with your statement that some people might be better in variants that they cannot own (as of yet) with no skill, however, isn't practice and experience far better than initial skill. I have the jenner D and the jenner f ©, I know the more I play one, the better I am at it, regardless that I paid cbills for the f©. Your argument, while logical, is unable to conclusively state that this flaw is game breaking, when the absence of such an avenue of forced purchase would likely drive other things to be needed to be bought using cbills, as this game can be played completely for free and still be competitive.

I am glad we have come to this threshold. As I understanding it, you are no longer saying there is no point to make a case on, but rather it is a small one, perhaps not of concern.

Further to this end you state that potential skill becomes quickly outlapped by practiced, acquired skill. And let me say I am not here to say you are wrong. Because I don't know. I would guess however, that the mech you have the most natural skill with will be the one you have the highest potential with.

How big of a problem this is is a discussion worth having.

Something has to be game breaking, before it is recognized to be pay to win? I disagree.

Say we have a lottery. Many people have their name on a slip of paper. If I say people can buy more slips, I think this constitutes as paying to win. You can consider paying for your slip to be picked as true pay to win, but I believe the former example applies, as it is used in our lexicon. P2W games often let you buy special powers or advantages, advantages, but not the battle itself.

One Medic Army, on 31 May 2013 - 10:18 PM, said:

Let me put it this way:
Hero mechs are less P2W than good computer hardware and/or a gaming mouse.

Therefore I consider them under the threshold for what I consider P2W on the scale of in-game purchases.

Everything's shades of grey, the question is when you start calling something black or white.

True, but PGI's goal of a non pay to win game is in reference to the game itself, not the hardware you bring.

[James DeGriz]

Thomas Covenant, on 31 May 2013 - 03:04 PM, said:

Cbill bonus, custom paint, invest in a non p2w game.

You cannot "win" with a specialist paint. Additional C-Bills only comes into play if you're any good with the mech in the first place. If the mech was P2W, it would be substantially more powerful than any of its stable mate for EVERYONE, not just for the handful of people that are particularly good with it. That is where your logic is flawed.

Quote

Even if you arn't the best in a hero mech, you are still getting more cbills than you would regularly, so that is a factor.

No, it isn't. More c-bills doesn't guarantee a win. Therefore, not P2W.

Quote

No, if you can buy a variant with cbills then I am fine with the argument that MC is just paying to "get it faster" for convenience. It is not the same thing as a mech you can only get with money.

It is the same, if the mech that you buy doesn't have any great advantages against the other available variants. To give an extreme example, if we got an Atlas Hero mech with a single ballistic hard point in its head, are you suggesting that is P2W for someone who is really good with machine guns?

To turn your OP on it's head, If the Hero mechs we have at the moment where just standard variants, without the cbill bonus or paint job and were available for C-Bills as well as MC, from a balance point of view, they would be no different to their other stable mates. The point you are missing is pay to WIN. None of these variants mean an automatic win for everyone that uses them irrespective of their individual skill set. If it so happens that a player with a skill set that is able to take advantage of a mech with a particular configuration, then they will be at an advantage, but that situation is no different to any other variant in the game.

What you're suggesting is that if I'm particularly adept with a Dragon 1C, and that is all of a sudden made into a hero mech, then it becomes P2W. Two words: Utter. Nonsense. If I bought that mech with MC on that basis, using your logic, it's already P2W.

Edited by James DeGriz, 31 May 2013 - 11:25 PM.

[James DeGriz]

Sephlock, on 31 May 2013 - 10:15 PM, said:

Yen Lo Wang and Pretty Baby are PTL though.

YLW is my favourite Centurion and the one I do best in. Just because you don't like it or can't pilot it effectively, don't assume that the same applies to everyone.

Thanks.

[M0rpHeu5]

I would prefer that the hero variants were common CB buyable while they's give us the ability to hero up our favourite mechs with mc which would be hell of a lot more profitable to them but calling hero mechs P2W is too much.