391 replies to this topic

[Syllogy]

No. They are not Pay 2 Win.

[Syllogy]

If you want a solid definition of Pay 2 Win, play any of SOE's "Free to Play" games.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Hero Mechs are DEFFINENTLY not P2W. A Hero Mech might have a different variant, but it is not more effective then any other mech.

Basically Hero Mechs are good for C-Bill grinding and having unique camo.

[WarHippy]

My best mech in theory would be the Urbanmech, but it isn't available to me so I am always at a disadvantage to all the other players whose best mech is in game. Therefore you are all cheaters and should be banned. My logic is flawless per the OPs standards so I vote he be banned first for cheating.

[SpartanFiredog317]

Hokay: here's the deal. Currently the only thing you "win" in MWO is more cbills/experience to buy more stuff with. There is no real value to winning or a good kill/death ratio. It's all about just some amalgamation of team death match or capwarrior. So even if you were to consider heros an advantage , its a pointless one. And really by your definition of having more options , premium time would be a FAR greater "pay to win " Device.... but even if true the fact remains that its only winning at epeen status

[The Platypus]

Thomas Covenant, on 31 May 2013 - 01:12 AM, said:

It is not a question of the mech but the man.

So what you're saying is that it's not P2W across the board for everyone but P2W for maybe 0.5% of the community or "that speshul someone with the skeelz to make the Death's Knell strike like the fury of nachomachoman"? How is that P2W?

[MonkeyCheese]

Syllogy, on 31 May 2013 - 07:12 AM, said:

If you want a solid definition of Pay 2 Win, play any of SOE's "Free to Play" games.

Exactly, go look at planetside 2 for example you could spend 50bucks on day one on new weapons, new weapon types, weapon upgrades for a few vehicles, and then premium bonuses on top of that to increase your exp skills faster.

Or you could spend slow boring weeks/months at a major disadvantage grinding the experience points in planetside for everything called certs (think of cbills+experience as one thing in mwo). Say for example trying to get that upgraded sniper rifle for your sniper class For 1000 certs. While keeping in mind as an average free to play player you could make say 100-300 certs in a day that u need to use for class skills, vehicle skills, new weapons, new weapon types, weapons for your vehicles.

So basically for it to be the same in mwo think of it like you can no1 pay mc for mechs and premium time for upgrading exp skills faster or no2 you can be free to play and grind a combined currency for exp and new mechs and have to decide to upgrade one or the other but not both cus you can't acquire the currency fast enough.

Tldr - you people need to get out more and experience other things before crying pay to win about simple hero mechs that are different to other variants.

[Thomas Covenant]

Gelion, on 31 May 2013 - 02:12 AM, said:

Well if you believe they will add mc rewards when community warfare gets started properly, then why are you arguing the need for change? So would you like these hero mechs be priced through the roof to account for the cbill bonus?

I am glad that at least you are remaining constructive, albeit philosophical

I am concerned they will make it so only very advanced players will be able to obtain MC, not average skilled players. Also if it takes a large amount of time, for example a year, I would say the threshold is still there.

I am totally in all of my intent for bringing up this topic to be constructive. Like I said earlier here is a challenge, lets tweak our design to overcome that obstacle. In this case its an obstacle in the way of the design philosophy living up to what it says it is. So let's change things around to get there.

El Bandito, on 31 May 2013 - 02:14 AM, said:

If they changed my A1 to Hero mech, then I will consider it to be P2W. It can do things no one else can.

I'm just itching for the SRM buffs so I can two shot people again.

lol. But what if the situation was the same, same question, but instead of the A1 being your best because it was overpowered, it was your best because you were so good with it? Is paying to get your best mech pay to win?

MonkeyCheese, on 31 May 2013 - 02:14 AM, said:

apparently if you are a skilled player YOUR SKILLS make a hero mech pay to win, not the hardpoints...

Kind of, but not quite. If a very what you might call 'unskilled' player is best in a hero mech, there is the pay to win component attached to it, it doesn't only apply to those at the top.

Tvae, on 31 May 2013 - 04:22 AM, said:

Don't worry OP, the point you make is perfectly logical. Unfortunately, few people seem to consider the ramifications of logic in arguments anymore, so I won't go too far into it. I've argued this line of thought for far too long on multiple occasions, and in the end the dissenters always inevitably react with either silence or by quoting irrelevancies.

Yes, Hero Mechs are pay to win. It is by a small technicality of logic, admittedly, but it's the truth. However, the only time this fact really make a huge difference would be in competition play with weight restrictions, where you can't simply say 'Oh hey, there's a slightly heavier mech that does everything better than this Hero, I'll choose that!'. But, if you're really to the point where you're playing competitively, I guess you would be less against paying a bit to get your perfect fit. (Unfortunately, saying such things is also what leads to the mindset that other p2w features are acceptable, so I'm still not sure I even agree with it).

Admittedly, PGI has done a fair job of making sure Hero Mechs aren't unbalanced by weakening them slightly. There's actually reasons why this itself is a bad idea (not from a P2W perspective but from a marketing one), but they didn't seem to care about those reasons either, so whatever. They're free to miss out on money if they want.

To sum up this small rant... It's been along time since this issue was laid to rest, and although it warms my heart to know that some people still rally to its call, the acceptance has clearly already begun to set in among the playerbase at large. It's sad, but was kind of expected.

If anyone really doesn't get the argument in the original post, or still believes that exclusive hero mechs aren't a bad idea from a marketing, gameplay, and community perspective, please feel free to go dig up some of the old forum posts from when this issue first arose where multiple people proved logically the problems this issue has, then were ignored because those arguing couldn't think of a response.

Friend, it is not a lost cause, as long as there solutions abound, and more importantly people willing to talk about it. We haven't lost anything. Nothing is permanent even if it may look that way. How could anyone whom consider themselves a part of a community not want to share their insights with it? I believe things can change, I believe, I suppose that this community is worth it.

Hey you've seen Shawshank Redemption? Andy Dufresne kept sending in those letters to get books for the library. Well as long as we are here, and until someone convinces us otherwise I say theres no reason to not do the same thing in a sense.

LockeJaw, on 31 May 2013 - 03:42 AM, said:

You asked the question, while having already made up your mind as to what the "correct" answer was.

Why you decided to whinge about it on the forums about it is beyond me.

If you discover a problem that affects people you know, do you not tell them?

I ask questions to stimulate the same discovery. Yes I believe I am right. Like a teacher whom believes 2 + 2 is 4, and knowing this I still ask what is 2 + 2?

James DeGriz, on 31 May 2013 - 03:58 AM, said:

On a point of logic OP, consider this:

If a hero mech didn't have the potential to a be A. Players "most optimal hardpoint layout for his play style", what would be the incentive to buy it?

Cbill bonus, custom paint, invest in a non p2w game.

Quote

And further to that, what makes it any different to any other variant within the same chassis? You can't factor in the C-Bill bonus simply because in order to really captilise on that, you have to be moderately successful with that mech in the first place.

Even if you arn't the best in a hero mech, you are still getting more cbills than you would regularly, so that is a factor.

Quote

I think most people have a favorite variant whether it be the Hero version or not, and the non hero versions you can pay for with MC as well. Using your argument, those variants are P2W as well.

No, if you can buy a variant with cbills then I am fine with the argument that MC is just paying to "get it faster" for convenience. It is not the same thing as a mech you can only get with money.

@ Tvae

Friend, it is not a 'lost cause', unless you settle into the idea as such, and do nothing.

Edited by Thomas Covenant, 31 May 2013 - 03:06 PM.

[RG Notch]

What did that poor horse ever do to you people that you can't let it rest in peace? ******* HATS PEOPLE! HATS!!!!!!

[Fate 6]

Gelion, on 30 May 2013 - 11:54 PM, said:

They give extra cbills, designed for those who are willing to put their money in. However, if you do not put any money into this, there is no disadvantage. Where is the pay2win? Tbh currently it is weight2win as generally the bigger the drop weight, the more likely that you will win.

When the Ilya was first introduced, in that metagame it was 100% P2W. I never said it because people would flame all day, but the Ilya was 100% imbalanced compared to other mechs. The triple UAC5 setup tore everything up, and there weren't enough large mechs to deal with it.

The X5 is a bit different because it doesn't make you win games, but I certainly notice that the X5 performs better than any other Cicada (or at least used to when SRMs weren't trash).

[Sephlock]

[Jabilo]

Well Thomas, I do not agree with your point but I do like your Zen like calm and way with words.

This is how I imagine you look.



Is it the mech or is it the man? That is some serious mystical **** right there.

Edited by Jabilo, 31 May 2013 - 03:28 PM.

[MonkeyCheese]

Sephlock, on 31 May 2013 - 03:20 PM, said:

OMFG this is the best possible video you could have posted for this topic. <3

[Sephlock]

MonkeyCheese, on 31 May 2013 - 03:38 PM, said:

OMFG this is the best possible video you could have posted for this topic. <3

Temba, his arms wide.

[Thomas Covenant]

Jabilo, on 31 May 2013 - 03:27 PM, said:

Well Thomas, I do not agree with your point but I do like your Zen like calm and way with words.

This is how I imagine you look.



Is it the mech or is it the man? That is some serious mystical **** right there.

You found me.

[Thomas Covenant]

The Platypus, on 31 May 2013 - 10:29 AM, said:

So what you're saying is that it's not P2W across the board for everyone but P2W for maybe 0.5% of the community or "that speshul someone with the skeelz to make the Death's Knell strike like the fury of nachomachoman"? How is that P2W?

Well conidering about 10% of mechs are hero mechs it more like 10% of the community. If someone "with the skeelz to make the Death's Knell strike like the fury of nachomachoman" has to pay to do so, how is it NOT pay to win?

[Thomas Covenant]

SpartanFiredog317, on 31 May 2013 - 09:44 AM, said:

Hokay: here's the deal. Currently the only thing you "win" in MWO is more cbills/experience to buy more stuff with. There is no real value to winning or a good kill/death ratio. It's all about just some amalgamation of team death match or capwarrior. So even if you were to consider heros an advantage , its a pointless one. And really by your definition of having more options , premium time would be a FAR greater "pay to win " Device.... but even if true the fact remains that its only winning at epeen status

This is true. This will not always be true. Tournaments and arranged fights and other non elo based confrontations for example. In these cases you having access to your best mech increases your chances of winning outright.

Edited by Thomas Covenant, 31 May 2013 - 03:57 PM.

[SpartanFiredog317]

Thomas Covenant, on 31 May 2013 - 03:57 PM, said:

This is true. This will not always be true. Tournaments and arranged fights and other non elo based confrontations for example. In these cases you having access to your best mech increases your chances of winning outright.

if a player can carry a team to victory in a hero mech, they could do the same thing in another chassis.

[Sephlock]

Shaka, when the walls fell.

[Thomas Covenant]

I think once all the points have been considered, its not difficult to see there is some degree of advantage that can be withheld. Hero mechs are $30 or more at times. It isn't hard to see how that amount for an ingame item is not practical for many people. I am confident in thinking it through, you will see this.

Now the next step is addressing the point, how much of a problem is it? Well, looking beyond the fact that there is a problem at all, contradicting the mwo design philosophy, you may argue its within tolerable limits.
The size of the problem is some theoretical number, which I am sure will not do for some.

In order to predict anything I want to break up and define the 3 cases I myself have identified.

#1 A guy would be best at a mech, which happens to be a pay only item, but he doesn't know about this potential so he doesn't care. The problem exist, he just doesn't know about it.

#2 A guy sees a hero mech that he knows he thinks he would be best at it. To be specific maybe he has always done well with a certain chassie, or a certain weapon. This is the only mech to combine them. The player, especially if the cost is not reasonable, becomes aware mechwarrior is not without a pay to win scenario.

#3 That guy who thinks the mech would be his best, gets it and finds out it isnt. He still had to pay to find out, and he has still become aware that there are situations in which mechwarrior is not without a pay to win scenario.

Edited by Thomas Covenant, 31 May 2013 - 04:24 PM.