391 replies to this topic

[Ralgas]

Thomas Covenant, on 06 June 2013 - 01:29 PM, said:

For us pay to win means you're able to bypass skill with money that you're able to gain tactical advantage over your fellow player via only one paying course of action -Bryan Ekman.

This is the definition I use. It may not be the definition 7 billion people use, but it is the one the game makers use and the one I care about.

You have the greatest tactical advantage in the mech most suited for your role, and you personally are best able to take advantage of. You can bypass the skill that others need to compensate for by being in a secondary mech. Your only paying option is mc/money(for now, mc rewards in CW have been discussed).

Which again is subjective, to once again use the HGN-HM as an example, everyone THOUGHT the heavy metal would be the best variant due to it's layout, but the 733c/732 became the dominant builds even for those that had one, at least certainly by the relative numbers on the battlefield........

You're basis on a pay chassis being best for a player is still subjective on speculation

Edit: it should be noted though that firebrand may be an exception, but only because it can *possibly* achieve higher alpha's than any other jagger, working my way through it's mech tree now to see how viable the build is when mastered (it runs waay too hot just yet)

Edited by Ralgas, 06 June 2013 - 01:59 PM.

[Skadi]

About any of the jagers can do what a muromets can do and so on and so forth, there is a mech that can do what every hero can do in some way shape or form save the misery, who can mount 5LL and a Gauss, which currently no other mech is capable of via hardpoints (soon it change)

[Blackadder]

Pay to win is gaining an advantage that can only be achieved by spending money, thus forcing other players to spend money to be on the same level. In no way shape or form is any hero mech, any MC consumable, pay to win.

The most you can argue with MWO is that its pay to avoid grind.

Are hero mechs exclusive? only if your not willing to spend money. do hero mechs give an advantage? not at all, they lack the inherent bonuses needed to do that.

Your argument is completely off base, and wrong. Your statement about not being able to get the hardpoints you want, has no basis in the hero mechs being pay to win or not, its a personal preference, nothing more. Further your statements/complaint basically boil down to you wanting something for free, without having to pay for the time the developer invested in the item. Its the same thing as you complaining about the cup of coffee your neighbor gave you , because its not a 8$ grande mocha late with a twist and a backflip from starbucks.

[Pater Mors]

Oh, you've changed the title... that totally changes my mind! Oh... wait... No it doesn't.

Ralgas, on 06 June 2013 - 01:51 PM, said:

Edit: it should be noted though that firebrand may be an exception, but only because it can *possibly* achieve higher alpha's than any other jagger, working my way through it's mech tree now to see how viable the build is when mastered (it runs waay too hot just yet)

And I'd just like to point out, that even if this is the case, it still doesn't matter because Alpha's are not supposed to be the driving damage force in this game. It's only because we have a broken heat system that everything is measured by the Alpha. Still in no way makes the Firebrand P2W.

[Thomas Covenant]

Ralgas, on 06 June 2013 - 01:51 PM, said:

Which again is subjective, to once again use the HGN-HM as an example, everyone THOUGHT the heavy metal would be the best variant due to it's layout, but the 733c/732 became the dominant builds even for those that had one, at least certainly by the relative numbers on the battlefield........

You're basis on a pay chassis being best for a player is still subjective on speculation

I have discussed the objectivity inherent in my observation before.

It is not speculation because I have piloted more than one mech. You know what I observed? I was better at piloting one over the other.

Now, mechs have different roles, for example my two first mechs were the Dragon and a Raven and the raven is a better scout while the Dragon is a better brawler, and of course this difference shouldn't equate to one being better than the other. Here's the thing, I'm a better scout than a brawler. I have more of a tactical advantage acting as one, in a mech designed for it.

So this means scout mechs are best for me. Ok, what next? Is there a best scout mech? Well I need survivability, speed, and long range as I favor poorly in a brawling role. I found the Raven to combine these best, and even more, the 4X's jump jets added to my ability to survive. Now this is the mech I do best in, sure with a Jenner or other mech I could build up skill, but the Raven 4X currently is able to best combine the elements I can take advantage on.

What is the best mech? That's subjective, people have different opinions on which is best.

What is my best mech? Right now the Raven 4X, and I know this objectively, atleast compaired to everything else I've tried.
I have practiced a great deal with the raven, but even before I did I used the trial mechs to test different mechs.

Edited by Thomas Covenant, 06 June 2013 - 03:35 PM.

[Fate 6]

Skadi, on 06 June 2013 - 01:55 PM, said:

About any of the jagers can do what a muromets can do and so on and so forth, there is a mech that can do what every hero can do in some way shape or form save the misery, who can mount 5LL and a Gauss, which currently no other mech is capable of via hardpoints (soon it change)

When the Ilya was released it was definitely pay to win [more]. It didn't guarantee a win, but it was definitely stronger than most (if not all) of the other Cataphracts. Also, there were no Jagermechs then. I think the YLW is also the fastest AC20 mech out there - definitely makes the Hunchback look a little weak.

EDIT: One of the hero Dragons is the only one that can mount an AC20 with the side torso ballistic hardpoint. That thing is definitely the best Dragon, even if the user doesn't mount an AC20.

Edited by Fate 6, 06 June 2013 - 04:21 PM.

[Skadi]

Fate 6, on 06 June 2013 - 04:19 PM, said:

When the Ilya was released it was definitely pay to win [more]. It didn't guarantee a win, but it was definitely stronger than most (if not all) of the other Cataphracts. Also, there were no Jagermechs then. I think the YLW is also the fastest AC20 mech out there - definitely makes the Hunchback look a little weak.

EDIT: One of the hero Dragons is the only one that can mount an AC20 with the side torso ballistic hardpoint. That thing is definitely the best Dragon, even if the user doesn't mount an AC20.

Re-read what I said, I didn't say another mech of the same chassi, but there are other mechs that can just as easily, if not better, mount that same weapon, also the treb can mount a AC20 and still go fast. also I cant, and never will consider the ilya "pay to win" for the very reason that it DID NOT generate wins, it was "pay to have a unique mech" but in NO way did it automatically generate a win for your team, thus NOT fulfilling the definition of "pay to win"

[Heldar1]

This entire argument is pointless. Pay to win is NOT something ONE or even TEN people gain a massive advantage over "free" players, it is EVERYONE who owns one gaining a quite OBVIOUS advantage over everyone else. Last I checked, I don't see butt tons of Ily's or Firebrand's CONSISTENTLY and REGULARLY mopping up the floors in large numbers. Matter of fact, I don't see any one mech mopping the floor.

Saying you are better in a Fang versus a 5N is like saying you'd prefer iced coffee over regular coffer, but regular is just fine too. YOU being better in one mech does NOT equal "ZOMG I AM ****** EVERYONE WITH MY INSTA DEATH RAY NUCLEAR DOOM BOT!" Completely pointless.

You will NOT break the game being better in one bot, half the Paying players being obviously and nearly unbeatable than the free would break the game.

Edited by Lagoth, 06 June 2013 - 05:00 PM.

[JSparrowist]

Thomas Covenant, on 06 June 2013 - 09:54 AM, said:

Would you still do so if the free players had access to the variants without the bonuses and special paint?

Yes. Time is money, I work a lot...so the cbill bonus helps make up for the time I don't get to play that others do...if it didn't have the bonus then it would be just another variant.

Thomas Covenant, on 06 June 2013 - 09:54 AM, said:

Your advantage is the availability to more mechs that might work better for you.

I can build the same loadouts with the free variants, for the most part, that I can with the heros. They are NOT pay to win.. they're pay to have something slightly different, not necessarily better. For instance, the Pretty Baby is pretty crappy compared to the other variants. My TDK is worse than my 2D. Are you getting it? I don't kill any more or less than other variants with them...they die just as easily as any other variant. There's nothing pay to win about them.

The bottom line is, if you think one of the Hero mechs would suit your play style better than the other chassis variants, support PGI and the game you obviously play and love and buy it! Save if you have to...cut back on something else for the money. Do you smoke? Do you drink? See where I am going with this?

Edited by JSparrowist, 06 June 2013 - 05:34 PM.

[SpartanFiredog317]

....Again, even if they put out a hero mech that got a across the board 10% damage increase, gave it ECM, 2 AMS slots and a DOZEN module slots.... and called it the 'Pay to win' mech, I STILL wouldn't care... you know why?

1.) There is absolutely no point to 'winning' right now, or for the majority of this year really... no story, no planets to conquer, not even a visible player heirarchy besides random 'tournaments' ...Therefore, even if they added the Death Star as a playable mech and made it impervious to trench runs, woo hoo, the current matchmaker is worse... 8-0 wins or 0-8 losses, RARELY if ever do I get a 'fair' fight in this game anyway.

2.) Along with the above, the 'pay to win' aspect even with PPC stalkers, Poptarts, and LRMageddon... ONE mech does NOT win the match for its side, its their prevalence that makes the aforementioned so aggravating. and very rarely are there more than 2 hero's on a side. So even if the were OMFGOP using one does not garuntee a win at all.

[Valore]

Fate 6, on 06 June 2013 - 04:19 PM, said:

When the Ilya was released it was definitely pay to win [more].

And then everyone dumb enough to believe that was promptly proved wrong when the torrent of tears about the 3D started.

Same went for the Heavy Metal. I thought it would verge on P2W there because it honestly had things that the other HL variants didn't. Was proven wrong by players happily piloting the 732 and obliterating everyone.

[Mycrus]

You are a young rich englishman..

Because of your status you are exempted from daily longbow training.

You just read "The Tales of Robin Hood" and you fancy yourself an archer.

You ask your retinue to fetch a bow.. They bring a training bow and a longbow.

If you are smart you will pickup the training bow and build your skill.

If you are stoopid, you will pickup a the longbow and then foolishly realize that you don't have the core muscles to perform a full draw.

But the story does not end... You are arse sore that you send your retinue far and wide to procure a rare mongol reflex bow... Arrows fly far and true even when pulled by a sissy boy like you...

The story closes with your belief that your phallus is more rigid and enlarged.

[Lucy Cameron]

I play my hero mechs to make a bit more money to buy....more mechs. Crazy, eh?

[Lightfoot]

Pretty Baby is pay to lose. Refund please.

[Sephlock]

CapperDeluxe, on 06 June 2013 - 11:02 AM, said:

From what I recall the Titanic didn't sink due to the design, but most likely due to the crappy iron (and/or steel) that was used during construction.

Did its sister ship(s) sink for the same reason?

[The Platypus]

Thomas Covenant, on 06 June 2013 - 01:29 PM, said:

For us pay to win means you're able to bypass skill with money that you're able to gain tactical advantage over your fellow player via only one paying course of action -Bryan Ekman.

Let that sink in for a moment.
Money giving you an advantage, allowing you to bypass the skill requirement to succeed in a game. That's what YOUR definition is saying. Funny because it's exactly what the rest of us have been saying for the past 15 pages and what you've been denying. And if you're going to argue about the tactical advantage bit, again I point you to the argument presented in many a reply before mine: Whatever a Hero Mech can do, a free mech of a different chassis can do it too. So that supposed 'tactical advantage over your fellow player via only one paying course of action' is moot.

And here's the entirety of what Bryan said about Hero Mechs:
"Ekman is careful these special Mechs don't translate from free to play into "pay to win". "For us pay to win means you're able to bypass skill with money that you're able to gain tactical advantage over your fellow player via only one paying course of action," he said. "How we balance that, for example with Hero Mechs, when you bring that on the battlefield, they're not any better than any other Mech on the field they really just give you that extra meta game boost."
The "meta game boost" Ekman refers to is a boost to the rate at which you earn experience points and the ingame C-bill currency of MechWarrior Online. The only thing you get with paying real money is convenience in unlocking more Mechs.

Link for the full article:http://www.warcry.co...After-Release.2

Edited by The Platypus, 06 June 2013 - 10:09 PM.

[Volthorne]

Sephlock, on 06 June 2013 - 08:43 PM, said:

Did its sister ship(s) sink for the same reason?

Firstly, his premise that the Titanic sunk due to bad materials is bollocks. The Titanic sunk due to poor decision-making skills ("They said it CAN'T be sunk, so let's just ignore everything because clearly that statement can't possibly be false because the builders said so, right?"). Secondly, almost every ship sunk post-1800 was due to poor decision-making skills OR large shunks of metal launched at high velocity, often filled with explosives. That's not to say ship's don't sink from environmental causes, but it's an incredibly small percentage of the number of ships lost.

What did this have to do with P2W again? Oh, right, nothing, much like the OP's semi-incoherent ramblings.

[Lykaon]

Thomas Covenant, on 31 May 2013 - 01:22 AM, said:

Do you have a single mech you are best at? If you did, and they took it away and made it pay to play hero variant, is it pay to win, by making you pay to play in it?

Actually no I do not have a single mech I am best at because I view each mech (and specific variants there of) as tools to complete a specific job or role.

I would not try to use a hammer to screw something in and I would not try to recon with an Atlas.

So if your argument is based on if a hero mech was the one mech someone was best at that would constitute pay to win for this one overly specialized hypothetical player.

I would point out that in my opinion the issue is more a matter of this hypothetical player lacking diversity or a complete understanding in tactics.Being a one trick pony is not as useful to a team as knowing several roles and techniques used to properly execute those roles.

With broader knowlege a diverse pilot would be able to predict enemy actions.

I guess what I'm saying is even if this hypothetical player was best at using a hero mech a team would more than likely be better off with a broader experienced player.

So I gathered from your argument that pay to win is polishing a **** with a hero mech?

[Thomas Covenant]

Lykaon, on 07 June 2013 - 12:51 AM, said:

Seriously? I appreciate you sharing your opinion, but at least read the OPs most recent post at the very least before commenting.

Edit: I apologize Lykaon for my tone. I have just become disenfranchised as I am so invested in this when there are problems with healthcare in my country, an unproductive education system and here I am putting 'buckets' of energy into this.

I love mechwarrior. I loved it when I knew no one else that did. This issue is of interest to me.

I share my thoughts and I don't know. People are crazy creatures. Hey I'm glad I am getting responses at all, not having any would be the worst case scenario, but when even my most recent post can't be acknowledged its like telling a phone number to someone with short term memory.

Half the people here are motivated more by not upsetting the game makers than having an open minded discussion, which I feel is unsupportive actually to a game.

Edited by Thomas Covenant, 07 June 2013 - 02:27 AM.

[Thomas Covenant]

Mycrus, on 06 June 2013 - 07:37 PM, said:

You are a young rich englishman..

Because of your status you are exempted from daily longbow training.

You just read "The Tales of Robin Hood" and you fancy yourself an archer.

You ask your retinue to fetch a bow.. They bring a training bow and a longbow.

If you are smart you will pickup the training bow and build your skill.

If you are stoopid, you will pickup a the longbow and then foolishly realize that you don't have the core muscles to perform a full draw.

But the story does not end... You are arse sore that you send your retinue far and wide to procure a rare mongol reflex bow... Arrows fly far and true even when pulled by a sissy boy like you...

The story closes with your belief that your phallus is more rigid and enlarged.

Man I needed that thanks.

SpartanFiredog317, on 06 June 2013 - 06:49 PM, said:

....Again, even if they put out a hero mech that got a across the board 10% damage increase, gave it ECM, 2 AMS slots and a DOZEN module slots.... and called it the 'Pay to win' mech, I STILL wouldn't care... you know why?

1.) There is absolutely no point to 'winning' right now, or for the majority of this year really... no story, no planets to conquer, not even a visible player heirarchy besides random 'tournaments' ...Therefore, even if they added the Death Star as a playable mech and made it impervious to trench runs, woo hoo, the current matchmaker is worse... 8-0 wins or 0-8 losses, RARELY if ever do I get a 'fair' fight in this game anyway.

2.) Along with the above, the 'pay to win' aspect even with PPC stalkers, Poptarts, and LRMageddon... ONE mech does NOT win the match for its side, its their prevalence that makes the aforementioned so aggravating. and very rarely are there more than 2 hero's on a side. So even if the were OMFGOP using one does not garuntee a win at all.

This also made me happy. Thank you.

Edited by Thomas Covenant, 07 June 2013 - 02:48 AM.