391 replies to this topic

[WarHippy]

Thomas Covenant, on 07 June 2013 - 01:15 PM, said:

If a hero mech equates as pay to lose, you have access to all the mechs that work for you.
If a hero mech equates as pay to win, you have less options than the scenario above without paying.

This is not balance but an imbalance.

I am sorry for you if your intent was to give me something to think about.



lol

I couldn't do that, as I have already bought some mc items. I I believed that I wouldn't have.

Too bad your entire argument is based on if this or if that. For something to be imbalanced it needs to always be an imbalance regardless of circumstances. What you are describing is nuances in game play not imbalances.

[Thomas Covenant]

It is always imbalanced for about 10% of people. That is the constant. It is BOTH a gameplay nuance and an imbalance.

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Yes, it was somewhat contradictory, but I was giving you rhetorical questions so you had something to think about.

Edited by Thomas Covenant, 07 June 2013 - 01:30 PM.

[Culler]

OP's logic is bad and should feel bad. Does being able to select a mech others cannot that is within the same power scope as all other variants of that chassi give a noticeable advantage in combat? No. Just being in an Ilya or Firestorm or Misery etc. does not give any kind of inherent advantage over one's opponents. It does give you broader choice, which might matter if we were drafting mechs so you could pick a mech that is a better counter to another mech but we always drop against an unknown enemy.

[PanzerMagier]

idiots and their Hero mech P2W Qq.
Cry me a river please. Please, if you don't want snobby 2 year old comments like that then try not argue over anything as stupid as the current thread.

With lights aside. Any mech can be brought down by any mech.
The silly notion that the hero mechs bring an "unfair" advantage to simply... stupid.

You can outfit a hunchi like a wang. A jager mech can make an Ilya build. a RS atlas can make a misery build. A 9m Awesome works like a PB. Almost any jager can also do the FB. So where the weapons are located sits a little different. Some are arm mounted, some are torso. Name me one hero mech that has a 100% unique setup and we'll talk again. Otherwise please refrain from posting anything so... silly...

[Thomas Covenant]

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OP's logic is bad and should feel bad.

My humor is quickly drying up.

[Blackadder]

Thomas Covenant, on 07 June 2013 - 01:40 PM, said:

My humor is quickly drying up.

i just figured you were trolling and couldnt stop.

[WarHippy]

Thomas Covenant, on 07 June 2013 - 01:27 PM, said:

It is always imbalanced for about 10% of people. That is the constant. It is BOTH a gameplay nuance and an imbalance.

Except it isn't always imbalanced for 10% of players, or any other made up percentage of players. Even if your best mech bar none is what you are playing you will still lose to someone that is playing in their worst mech bar none because they are better than you. Skill trumps mech, which is why Hero mechs are not P2W. For the them to be P2W they would have to bypass skill and allow an unskilled player to surpass a skilled player through wallet warrior combat. That is not the case here. Ones individual skill is far to variable to take into a balance discussion. You just can't do it.

Edited by WarHippy, 07 June 2013 - 02:03 PM.

[Thomas Covenant]

Blackadder, on 07 June 2013 - 01:51 PM, said:

i just figured you were trolling and couldn't stop.

That would be hilarious! Well, if I can't make a change on issues that I care about, perhaps I'd have more success and enjoyment out of trolling. Perhaps this is how they are born?

[Thomas Covenant]

WarHippy, on 07 June 2013 - 01:56 PM, said:

Except it isn't always imbalanced for 10% of players, or any other made up percentage of players. Even if your best mech bar none is what you are playing you will still lose to someone that is playing in their worst mech bar none because they are better than you. Skill trumps mech, which is why Hero mechs are not P2W. For the them to be P2W they would have to bypass skill and allow an unskilled player to surpass a skilled player through wallet warrior combat. That is not the case here ones individual skill is far to variable to take into a balance discussion. You just can't do it.

Hippy, I'm going to start ignoring your posts now, but I want you to know why.

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or any other made up percentage of players.

If you were really investigating what I am saying, at least you'd have asked where I got the number from. Good day. I am truly sorry if you did have some valid counter points, as I would have loved to have heard those.

[Thomas Covenant]

MeiSooHaityu, on 07 June 2013 - 09:57 AM, said:

OMG! The Hula Girl was a pay item only!!! P2W! P2W!

Exactly!

[Volthorne]

Thomas Covenant, on 07 June 2013 - 02:01 PM, said:

Hippy, I'm going to start ignoring your posts now, but I want you to know why.


If you were really investigating what I am saying, at least you'd have asked where I got the number from. Good day. I am truly sorry if you did have some valid counter points, as I would have loved to have heard those.

It's funny, because now you're actually ignoring the truth!

Please show me where a YLW can mount an AC/20 free of tonnage and crit restrictions and I will agree that it is P2W. Or better yet, show me how a PB can make everyone else on the field into terrible player because it gets 30 free HS instead of 10.

[Thomas Covenant]

I just called hula girl over powered and no one finds that odd. Maybe her good luck is pay to win!

My point is that there is an element, small or large, that is imbalanced about letting pay players have more mech variants than non pay.

It's an issue I haven't seen addressed. I'm not even sure how it should be addressed.

Personally as a supporter of the "free to play" philosophy, I would have a hard time purchasing a hero when this imbalance is present.

I know people have made this distinction before me and know there are others that would be not even just be more likely, but only willing to buy a hero mech at all if its WASN'T an exclusive variant. What ever that means. Make a base variant without the dazzle and bonuses? Sure.

[Rocket Puppy]

Thomas there have been many logical counterpoints to your argument that you are simply ignoring. with your logic every Mech was pay to lose when the Raven 3L was
king.

[Thomas Covenant]

I admit if I am insulted in the first line I don't read further. If there was a good counter point that I have "ignored" its because I haven't heard it. If you have one in mind feel free to share it with me and you will get my response.

Edited by Thomas Covenant, 07 June 2013 - 03:00 PM.

[Thomas Covenant]

I actually need to thank people for getting an emotional reaction out of me. It has shown me I haven't been appreciating myself as fully as I should. I know I am not stupid. I know that I am doing the best I can. And I know, with an open mind I consider myself correct.

[RG Notch]

Thomas Covenant, on 07 June 2013 - 03:46 PM, said:

I actually need to thank people for getting an emotional reaction out of me. It has shown me I haven't been appreciating myself as fully as I should. I know I am not stupid. I know that I am doing the best I can. And I know, with an open mind I consider myself correct.

I have a feeling you think those words mean something else, much like your personal definition of P2W. It must be easy to seem those things once your make your own definitions up.

[Thomas Covenant]

I use PGI's definition.

[Rocket Puppy]

Thomas Covenant, on 07 June 2013 - 04:12 PM, said:

I use PGI's definition.

can you provide a source?

[Thomas Covenant]

Rocket Puppy, on 07 June 2013 - 04:16 PM, said:

can you provide a source?

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Ekman is careful these special Mechs don't translate from free to play into "pay to win". "For us pay to win means you're able to bypass skill with money that you're able to gain tactical advantage over your fellow player via only one paying course of action," he said. "How we balance that, for example with Hero Mechs, when you bring that on the battlefield, they're not any better than any other Mech on the field they really just give you that extra meta game boost."
The "meta game boost" Ekman refers to is a boost to the rate at which you earn experience points and the ingame C-bill currency of MechWarrior Online. The only thing you get with paying real money is convenience in unlocking more Mechs.

source


I take the stance that unlocking more mechs is more than a convenience when these mechs are obtainable "via only one paying course of action".

I don't really care if you want to consider it pay to win or not, I feel it could be argued from both sided that unique variants are bad.

When you have to pay for them you have money only items that effect gameplay. Consumables are kind of a grey area because there is a non pay version.

Hero mechs are unique, and while you can try to replicate them in another mech, there is going to be large differences with hitboxes, hardpoint locations, mech quirks and so forth.

My definition is that if you have more options, this is a tactical advantage.

Edited by Thomas Covenant, 07 June 2013 - 05:01 PM.

[Rocket Puppy]

You confusing the advantages and disadvantages of certain variants and their exclusivity with having an overall advantage.

The Hero Mechs may have an edge in certain scenarios during a game, but as with any mech it is up to the player not to give the enemy that advantage.

The more one plays a particular variant, hero or not, the better they are going to be at playing with that mech.

You will see more players do well in heros than several other variants because outside grinding up new mechs they play in heroes almost exclusively for the cbill bonus. It isn't that the heros are better, it is just that they payout better.

Only the Heavy Metal and Muromets are ever seen in 8v8 or high level play because the rest of the heroes are flat out weaker than other variants.

I know I'm not gonna change your mind considering you used a source that directly contradicted your opinion but perhaps you should cease arguing and take a break from the forums. I'm out of here.