649 replies to this topic

[Mandella]

For the Tabletop the clans were the death of tactics. Movement modifiers became irrelevant, heat didnt matter for the most part. And people tried their best to circumvent the clan honor system.

The idea was good, the repurcussions for the TT were horrible.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Youngblood, on 10 November 2011 - 10:20 AM, said:

Whoa, man. In character much? I'm speaking from a player's perspective, not a retarded science fiction character's perspective. Save your immersion for an RP thread.



And given that I was speaking from a player's perspective, I'd also like to add that Clan players usually think this^^^ when I beat them both in MW4 and on boardgame. There is something to be said about how the more primitive a faction is, the more childish its players are.

I was in character because it is both amuses & relaxes me. It was my decision to do so & I do it for certain threads. If you do not like it, too bad. Save it for an RP thread? ROFL Even if you made that wish with a magic lamp you would still be disappointed. I will be in character when & where I wish. Deal with it. If you so desire, I can dismantle your threads from a real world player perspective. Just give me the green light. Who are you to tell me when or when not to be in character? Pompous little troll.

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 10 November 2011 - 03:52 PM.

[Egomane]

None of the provided answers!
What are the Clans to you? - An annoyance, nothing more!

[Glare]

Mandella, on 10 November 2011 - 02:39 PM, said:

For the Tabletop the clans were the death of tactics. Movement modifiers became irrelevant, heat didnt matter for the most part. And people tried their best to circumvent the clan honor system.

The idea was good, the repurcussions for the TT were horrible.

From this, I can only surmise that you played with the worst kind of players imaginable. In my group, tactics became paramount, because the Inner Sphere has a very hard time winning a stand-up fight without use of good tactics.

Movement modifiers are not the only way to make it harder to hit you, and the increase in availability of lighter engines means that the same machines can now generate +1 or even +2 more on a movement mod than before the change. Sure, targeting computers negate that by a whopping -1, and pulse lasers by -2, but that's the point of those weapons. They weigh more, have higher heat, and shorter range in order to hit harder and more accurately.

Heat still matters for everything. I challenge you to find any kind of energy weapon varient on any of the original 16 Clan 'Mechs that doesn't melt like a chocolate bar on a hot day if you don't practice smart heat management. Go ahead. Try. You won't find many. Actually, let's look at all of them, shall we? Find out which ones can really ignore heat management.

The Fire Moth is a tiny little thing, so I doubt it'll overheat to begin with (which is hardly unique to it. Check out any of the bug 'Mechs for a similar situation), but let's take a look. Prime mounts 2 ERMLs (respectable) and some missiles. A Config mounts only one missile system and then support gear for no heat, B mounts 2 MPLs and then machine guns, making it a holy terror against infantry and not much else, C is a missile boat, no heat there (expected. Only the Archer is really a heat-hog missile boat), and the D will overheat by fully +10 a turn. To be expected for a light 'Mech, and it pretty much matches what we see on the Inner Sphere side, just with more firepower per config, which is to be expected.

The Kit Fox next, hmm? Okay, Prime config. Ballistic weapons keep the heat down to neutral. Same with the A. The B is also the same thing, just switching a UAC/10 for the Gauss. The C is hilarious, since it mounts three whole AMSs, and then machine guns. They keep it heat neutral. The D is a missile boat. Okay, that was more heat neutral than most IS lights, but that's because half of the configs are laughably underpowered by Clan standards.

And now the Adder. It's got a Targeting Computer. Nice. Now let's take a look at th- HOLY **** it overheats by a whopping +13 by firing both of its guns. Yeah, it only has two. Now that just screams "manage your heat or die" to me, doesn't it to you? Still, onward. The Alpha config only overheats by +1 on a running alpha because it switches those PPCs for LRM20s. Respectable, and painful, but markedly less so than the Prime. B config overheats again despite packing a ballistic weapon to lighten the load. C config is a smaller missile boat that doesn't overheat. D uses ballistics again to lighten the load, and still overheats by +3. Well, that thing is certainly fresh out of the oven. Don't burn yourself.

Viper Prime. Neutral. Viper A, overheats by 17. Whoa, that's a lot. B overheats by 10. Getting consistently hot up here, now that they mount more weapons than engine. The C is better, only overheating by 7. D is marginally better still, overheating by 6. Now that's impressive. A 'Mech that only has one config that can't all shove it into a lower movement bracket with a single turn.

The Nova Prime, on a running alpha, will put itself to +29 heat. That's only one below an automatic shutdown, which is the highest you can even get without expanding the heat scale with optional rules. That's in one turn. The Nova A will build to +13, the Nova B is oversinked by virtue of mounting mostly ballistics (which is the whole POINT of ballistics), as is the C (same deal), the D is nothing but ballistics and missiles, the E has only three ERMLs and then missiles, and is probably the only truly heat neutral config of the Nova that has an appreciable energy armament. The later H variant will actually put itself in automatic shut down and then an additional five heat overflow on a running alpha.

And now to the Stormcrow. Pretty much the holy grail of Medium 'Mechs. I'm expecting this one to be wonderfully cool, since it basically epitomizes the Clans with its combinations of firepower, mobility and armor. Surely they must have done everything right? Prime starts out good, heat neutral, mostly because it burns a whole extra 12 tons on heat sinks (that's more than 20% of its tonnage in extra heat sinks, right there). A config overheats by 12. Hmmm, might have been wrong. Config B overheats by a whopping 20 heat. The C config only overheats by 2, because it burns 13 tons on an LB-10X AC and ammo. Finally D config is nothing but a missile boat and doesn't overheat. There you have it. The holy grail of Medium 'Mechs well into the Jihad can fatally overheat itself in less than three turns on fully 40% of its configs. The ones that don't burn ridiculous amounts of tonnage in order to avoid that.

But wait, maybe that's only because it was still a Medium, and counldn't really afford all the heat sinks to make heat management irrelevent. Onto the heavies, starting with the Mad Dog. Right off the bat the Prime overheats by 18. Huh, maybe not. A config does the exact same thing. The B overheats by 28, ten more than the relatively cooler Prime and A. Wait a second. We've looked through 33 different configs, and found that almost half of them (14) can fatally overheat themselves in record time, faster than almost anything in the Inner Sphere except for maybe the JR7-D Jenner and the old school Rifleman. Maybe they'll get more heat neutral after this. This one has to be the tipping point, right? C config supports that. Until you realize that it only builds 4 heat on a running alpha because it only mounts two single-heat ballistic guns that mass 12 tons each before ammo. The D config is back to normal, overheating by 16 a turn.

Save us Hellbringer! We're overheating like no machine the Inner Sphere has ever seen! And then the Prime burns up to +26 heat a turn. Ow, that's hot. A config saves them a little, with only +13 heat. The B config ditches everything for ballistics to stay heat neutral. C config bumps right back up to +12, and then the D burns up to +11. Wow, they named that one well.

Next up, Summoner. The Prime mounts a spread of one of every type of weapon to stay a chill heat neutral. Off to a good start. The A is heat neutral too, as is the B. Looking good so far. Then the C ruins it by by going to +9 in a single turn. The D stays cooler, but only by mounting an additional six heat sinks. So far, the coolest running Clan 'Mech we've seen, by far. And it only took us into the upper end of the Heavy weight class to find one.

Oooh, everyone's favorite heavy cavalry 'Mech is up next. The Timberwolf. Surely it must be a heat neutral monster of a 'Mech to capture the undying adoration of every newcomer to the game, and more than a few vets. The Prime starts off at a frosty..... +18. I'm burning up in here. The A builds to +10. The B is chilly, but only because oh hello ballistics and missiles. The C rockets back up to +14, and the D takes the Timberwolf's Hottest Running Config award with +20. Hmmm. Seems we slipped past the heat neutral part of the scale back at around 40 tons. Everything's just been getting hotter on the way up.

Oh, wait, We still have the Assaults to look at. Maybe they can finally spare the tonnage to keep themselves from exploding in the second round of the game. The Man O' War starts off woefully oversinked, with 18 more dissipation than it needs. Seriously, this thing could be sinked by single heat sinks just fine. But then OH *** THE A CONFIG! IT BURNS. +21 heat per turn. A five minute break from the boiling temperatures with the B config, which is oversinked by 22 this time. The C config burns to touch again, +14 heat. The D config finally strikes a happy balance of exactly zero heat build up.

Wow, these upper end Clan 'Mechs are making me feel warm just sitting here. But maybe, just maybe, it gets better. Let's ask our good friend the Warhawk. Maybe he ca- No. Just no. The Prime burns to a +26 heat per turn. The A is neutral though, and good thing too. I was afraid I'd burst into flame from the Prime. The B is neutral too, by virtue of heavy ballistics and a buncha missiles. The C is better than the Prime, only burning up a +9 heat curve every turn. Strage how that's a good heat curve now, when it would have practically been a bonfire earlier in the list. The D is perfectly heat neutral, once again thanks to heavy ballistics and missiles.

Still, despite feeling like I'm going to spontaneously combust, gotta keep going. The Gladiator. The Prime is mercifully cool. Thank you, heavy ballistics. The A config overheats by 16. *Sigh* Back to the furnace. The B is up by +1 heat per turn, and it's only that cool because of the moster UAC/20 that eats 15 tons with ammo. The C keeps the UAC/20 and then adds missiles to make it even cooler. The D is back up on the scale, +8 per turn. Whew, we're back down to only 40% of the canon configs overheating like battles should only last two turns.

Last one, the Dire Wolf. I have a bad feeling about this. The Prime confirms those fears, shooting up to automatic shut down in exactly one turn. Impressive. The A config is heat neutral, thanks to a Gauss Rifle and then some missiles. The B is +22 again, more boiling oil poured all over the "heat management is irrelevent" statement. The C even tries to sink more heat, and then still goes +14 over. The last config, the D, overheats by only +2.

Well there you have it. Something like fully half of all canon configurations for all of the Clan 'Mechs can fatally overheat themselves over the course of three turns at the most. I think the 'Mechs speak for themselves. Ignore heat management if you want. I'll be over here laughing when you blast off like some BattleTech version of Team Rocket the second you pull the trigger.

I can't really tell you honestly that nobody subverts the Clan honor system. That would be a lie. It would also be a lie to say that the Clan honor system was ever considered 'balance' for the Clans. It's an RP device, nothing more. BV balances far more effectively, and if you go with Clan pilots of G3/P4, they're even more expensive, to the point where it's not unheard of to get three decent Medium 'Mechs for the price of one good Clan Heavy. I like those odds.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Uh double heatsinks FTW!

[Aaron DeChavilier]

do clan mechs run hot? yes, but any Solaris 4th grader knows moderation even in IS designs. Ergo clans run hotter, but most players stipple the fire and min/max their heat scales resulting in mechs that move 1/3 faster than equal IS designs, shoot more accurately, negate most move bonuses and outrange/outgun.

Much akin to certain units in SCII or WoT; on paper they're balanced, in practice...

Overall the hype for this game has got me bad, so i dont care what goes into....I just want strap in already and slag mechs!

[Rogal Dorn]

Egomane, on 10 November 2011 - 03:09 PM, said:

None of the provided answers!
What are the Clans to you? - An annoyance, nothing more!

This one

[Taemien]

Rogal Dorn, on 10 November 2011 - 09:08 PM, said:

This one

Agreed. Had a RAC Centurion or PPC Uziel shred a clan heavy on many an occasion. Clanners only get an advantage if you play on larger maps, and you're using 3025 tech. Play it smart and with 3055+ IS tech and equal BV's and you'll tear them apart. Not to mention you should outnumber and out-ton them. Flank them. Clan mechs are designed with honor in mind. Weak rear torso armor. A single large laser or two medium lasers should start providing crit rolls.

[Wil Scarlet]

I do find it quite interesting that Clan Warriors are hyphenating their words... very interesting...

[Glare]

Aaron DeChavilier, on 10 November 2011 - 09:03 PM, said:

do clan mechs run hot? yes, but any Solaris 4th grader knows moderation even in IS designs. Ergo clans run hotter, but most players stipple the fire and min/max their heat scales

I dunno about whatever definition you were using then, because that sounds like textbook heat management. Minmaxing heat scales is a valid tactic, even if I don't particularly care for it.

[HIemfire]

guardian wolf, on 09 November 2011 - 07:44 AM, said:

Seriously, all you inner sphere surats, need to shut the **** up and listen, Clan Wolf and the rest of the wardens weren't that bad, in fact they tried to get as many planets as possible in the beginning so that way you wouldn't have to deal with the Falcons, and other crusaders, to make your lives easier, sorry we lost the trial of refusal, but remember who sent the Wolf's Dragoons to prepare the inner sphere. Yes their original mission was recon, but then it went into preparing the inner sphere for invasion, and as for all of you calling us targets, you ever go against a binary without having a whole battalion behind you, you should try it sometime, two of your lances, against a binary, see how that works for you.

Ulrik Kerensky falls into your example and maybe a third of Clan Wolf. Wolf itself was divided between Crusader and Warden. As for the complaint that we "spheroids" are calling you targets, have someone come into your town shooting up the police station, city hall and regional airfield. Say you and several others have equipment with similar capability to what the brigands (which is what the Clans in effect are, organized brigands) are carrying, are you just going to sit on your **** while they do so, mind you they are shouting "Its for your own good" the entire time, or are you going to see a bunch of fish that just need a barrel. Clanner = target. Period.

[Lima Zulu]

Quote

The Clans are an elite warrior-based culture bound by a unique code of honor.

Elite, warrior-based - yes. Culture - no. No at all. IS - it's a politics, economy, military battlefield. Clans are honor playground.

Quote

They are Kerensky's Chosen. They will retake what is rightfully theirs! They are crusaders and will trample all who stand in their way!

They betraing Kerensky by invading IS as military force.

Quote

They are Kerensky's Children. Enlightenment is their gift. They return to protect that which is unique among the stars; Terra, and humanity from its own hubris.

Protect? Enlighment? Turtle bay?

Quote

The Clans are foreign invaders armed with superior technology.

Sound like true.

Quote

they have cooler stuff and talk about "honor" a lot.

Oh yes... Cool stuff and "honor"... Very short and very good describtion.

Quote

I know enough about the Clans to know I don't like how they were introduced into the BT/MW universe because of

TBH, yes. There are books about Falcons, Wolves, maybe even Bears (thx god not about Jags) and other "crusaders" but I haven't read any novels about Sentinel clans. Looking at crusaders, I doubt even sentinels are completely normal, but, maybe, they aren't screwed up so much...

[Glare]

It is a culture. Just because you do not particularly like them does not make such a fact untrue. We can argue from now until the end of time which version of Kerensky's vision is the correct one. I would argue just as long and as hard that invading the Inner Sphere was the right choice; left unchecked, they would undo the little good that had been done by the rediscovery of the Helm Core.

Turtle Bay was the product of an incompetent Smoke Jaguar commander. The Jaguars have since been dealt with. Harshly, as they deserved. That said, the demand for their destruction is what formed the Second Star League, and the Clans united the Inner Sphere, just not in the way they expected. If anything, they were the single most beneficial event to happen to the Inner Sphere on a political as well as technological standpoint. Not even the Helm Core contained the information for such weapons the likes of which are seen in the time of the Jihad. The Clan invasion was merely the catalyst that sparked the next age of advancement.

[Jack Gallows]

Lima Zulu, on 11 November 2011 - 12:02 AM, said:

TBH, yes. There are books about Falcons, Wolves, maybe even Bears (thx god not about Jags) and other "crusaders" but I haven't read any novels about Sentinel clans. Looking at crusaders, I doubt even sentinels are completely normal, but, maybe, they aren't screwed up so much...

There are books that feature quite a bit of the Smoke Jaguar. Who do you think betrayed the Clans homeworld information? It was Mechwarrior Trent of Clan Smoke Jaguar.

[Lima Zulu]

@Glare

Glare, on 11 November 2011 - 12:16 AM, said:

I would argue just as long and as hard that invading the Inner Sphere was the right choice

But it's not a choice of all clans, only Crusaders.

Quote

That said, the demand for their destruction is what formed the Second Star League, and the Clans united the Inner Sphere, just not in the way they expected.

Serpent and Bulldog campaign was planned to show that Second Star League can bring war to clan homeworlds, Jags were chosen for their crimes, but in other situation it could be any other clan - wolves or falcons, for example. At least, that's how it's described in Twilight of Clans. About reunite - well, it's true for Nova Cats and Ghost Bears, but I doubt that other crusader clans want to be intrgrated to IS that way.

Quote

they were the single most beneficial event to happen to the Inner Sphere on a political as well as technological standpoint.

It would be even more beneficial, if wasn't followed by massive military invasion.

@Jack Gallows

Quote

There are books that feature quite a bit of the Smoke Jaguar. Who do you think betrayed the Clans homeworld information? It was Mechwarrior Trent of Clan Smoke Jaguar.

Well, I haven't read all of BT books - not every book was even translated and published in my country, but I've read Twilight of Clans recently in english so I've heard about Trent and his fate.

Edited by Lima Zulu, 11 November 2011 - 01:12 AM.

[Jack Gallows]

Lima Zulu, on 11 November 2011 - 01:07 AM, said:

Well, I haven't read all of BT books - not every book was even translated and published in my country, but I've read Twilight of Clans recently in english so I've heard about Trent and his fate.

I really like that series, though some of the writing in a few is a bit weak (stackpole ALWAYS delivers, though.)

[Glare]

Your first point is correct, and is a major point of contention in the setting. Freely acknowledged. However, of the Clans that invaded, Clans Jade Falcon, Nova Cat, Ghost Bear, and Smoke Jaguar may have been Crusaders, but the Wolf was Warden. Such is the nature of the Clans. The Wolves called a Trial of Refusal to avoid the invasion, but were defeated; hence, the invasion occurred.

That said, the invasion might have been more beneficial in the short run if the invasion as it were had not been violent. There are two problems with this, though. 1) If the invasion had not been violent, odds are stacked against an even somewhat peaceful accord between Successor States to deal with the invasion. A peaceful invasion of ideas does not rally banners to a cause. 2) With the warrior centric culture of the Clans, I doubt that the Clan leadership would have been able to contemplate a non-violent contact with the Inner Sphere. The Trial the Wolves demanded was not to non-violently contact the Inner Sphere, it was to call off Operation Revival entirely.

[Owl Cutter]

Thanks, Winson. For what little it's worth, I find politics depressing because it's so similar to warfare. The only really substantial difference in cost that I see is more death by overt slaying one way, and more long-lasting socioeconomic damage the other- which leads to more suffering and premature death anyway.

Anyway, re: debate over who's more mad, if there's to be talk about futility, I think Captain Nice articulated it better than I know how to.

Captain Nice HD, on 08 November 2011 - 11:31 PM, said:

This sounds so familiar. It's almost as if this has happened before, a long time ago. Oh yes, now I remember: the Star League did the exact same thing.

They came to conquer us 'for our own good'. They threw a fit that we did not abide by a peculiar set of conventions; a document which we had never signed on account of it legitimizing warfare and it being penned in the blood of our countrymen. It baffled them so that we did not simply submit. It was unfathomable to them that we would fight with such grim determination against such insurmountable odds; against the invader who had threatened our homes and our families. That we would not simply let Terra take what it did not own without a fight, even if that fight was destined to be a losing one that would cost us dearly before the end.

Different era. Different actors. Same hypocritical, self-righteous dogma. History repeats. And history has a taste for irony.

I expect all of the clans to understand how the Star League collapsed, since I imagine it's something they think about often. Understanding motives behind actions, regardless of how misguided one might think them to be, is an essential part of the foundation of martial prowess. The 'Sphere did stop fighting each other and cooperate when faced with a bigger threat, as when the invasion started, and as humans have demonstrated a tendency to do in real and BT history centuries prior. When that happened some Crusader clans earned my respect by recognising this fulfillment of the condition on which Warden philosophy is based, and joining them. It just looks to me like the original Wardens saw what was coming earlier because they understood the pattern without needing to have it shoved in their faces again. Based on what little information I have, I instinctively tend to have the most respect for the Ghost Bears since they seem most respectful toward others. They seem to be having some success improving the lives of their Wards, which is more than can be said of any conquest. I don't know how their Prince and Khan are elected, but it can't be worse than what the other nations get, so if I had to choose a faction in that era I'd gravitate toward the Rasalhague Dominion if not for clan tech probably being more common- but in-universe, that's probably a good thing too.

[Youngblood]

Jaroth Winson, on 10 November 2011 - 03:06 PM, said:

I was in character because it is both amuses & relaxes me. It was my decision to do so & I do it for certain threads. If you do not like it, too bad. Save it for an RP thread? ROFL Even if you made that wish with a magic lamp you would still be disappointed. I will be in character when & where I wish. Deal with it. If you so desire, I can dismantle your threads from a real world player perspective. Just give me the green light. Who are you to tell me when or when not to be in character? Pompous little troll.

Trolls post in threads without contributing so much as an opinion of anything. I stated my opinion of the Clans in my first post on this thread, and then my opinion of Clan players in the second post.

I love how you immediately jumped to the conclusion that I was personally insulting you, when all I was doing was adding a little negativity to my statements. You could, however, start trying to explain to me why the Clans deserve their technology and why they belong in MechWarrior and the BattleTech universe. So far you really haven't done much to improve my opinion of Clan players with your spoiled-child retaliations.

And oh by the way, you only feed trolls when you talk to them.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Lima Zulu, on 11 November 2011 - 12:02 AM, said:

Elite, warrior-based - yes. Culture - no. No at all. IS - it's a politics, economy, military battlefield. Clans are honor playground.

They betraing Kerensky by invading IS as military force.

Protect? Enlighment? Turtle bay?

Sound like true.

Oh yes... Cool stuff and "honor"... Very short and very good describtion.

TBH, yes. There are books about Falcons, Wolves, maybe even Bears (thx god not about Jags) and other "crusaders" but I haven't read any novels about Sentinel clans. Looking at crusaders, I doubt even sentinels are completely normal, but, maybe, they aren't screwed up so much...

Elite, warrior-based - yes. Culture - YES. From the time Nicholas formed the Clans, they began their own culture. If you do not agree with it or like that is your problem. The Clans, have politics ( you better believe it & if you need proof I can quote you books & pages), economy (just because the Diamond Sharks/Sea Foxes are mockingly called the "Merchant Clan" does not mean that the other Clans do not participate in economics; while there is no serious value placed on actual money, as everyone is given a salary & we are not greedy like the IS people are since we simply accept what we get,you better believe their is heavy bartering (trading) going on, military battlefield ( I do not have to say it do I?). Clans are honor playground; oh this is no play. TRUST THAT.

Where is the betrayal? The Crusader philosophy has merit.

You cannot use Turtle Bay because it was an isolated incident done by one Clan. It is as if one could blame the entire IS for the actions of the Free Worlds League. They are all separate entities.

Glare, on 11 November 2011 - 01:19 AM, said:

Your first point is correct, and is a major point of contention in the setting. Freely acknowledged. However, of the Clans that invaded, Clans Jade Falcon, Nova Cat, Ghost Bear, and Smoke Jaguar may have been Crusaders, but the Wolf was Warden. Such is the nature of the Clans. The Wolves called a Trial of Refusal to avoid the invasion, but were defeated; hence, the invasion occurred.

That is a bit inaccurate. The Khan of Clan Wolf was Warden. Most of the actual clan were Crusaders. They only went along because of loyalty. Vlad is the epitome of that. Read Malicious Intent.

Aaron DeChavilier, on 10 November 2011 - 09:03 PM, said:

do clan mechs run hot? yes,

?????????? Clan mechs were always cooler than IS mechs. Double heatsink FTW.

Quote

Ranna patted his right shoulder. "True enough, but the technology used to put it together was old when the Star League fell apart. We replaced the skeleton with one made of an endo-steel alloy. It's a bit bulkier to stabilize in sheering-strength situations, but it's much lighter than the original internal structure. The power plant is brand new, and it provides the same power and speed at half the weight. The heat sinks built into it work at roughly double the efficiency of those you had before."

Youngblood, on 11 November 2011 - 02:22 AM, said:

Trolls post in threads without contributing so much as an opinion of anything. I stated my opinion of the Clans in my first post on this thread, and then my opinion of Clan players in the second post.

I love how you immediately jumped to the conclusion that I was personally insulting you, when all I was doing was adding a little negativity to my statements. You could, however, start trying to explain to me why the Clans deserve their technology and why they belong in MechWarrior and the BattleTech universe. So far you really haven't done much to improve my opinion of Clan players with your spoiled-child retaliations.

And oh by the way, you only feed trolls when you talk to them.

You are quite correct troll. No more food for you. Ignored.

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 11 November 2011 - 04:37 AM.