649 replies to this topic

[CeeKay Boques]

The Clans are a way of pretending to roleplay a pompous, elitist, "might makes right", "look I can kill you with hand tied behind my back, my bloodline is simply stronger than yours" "contractions are weak" kind of guy.

You get kicked out of IS units when they find out you are actually like that.

[Glare]

Unless you're Lyran, then you get promoted to Armchair General's Bodyguard.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Jack Gallows, on 11 November 2011 - 09:23 AM, said:

Well, then...

What is there to Clan life? You don't have children like the IS do. You don't make those bonds that really mean something, great example is today's Veterans day. You move farther away from what the Star League was, by removing the heart and soul of what it means to be human. The heart that beats inside the Inner Sphere beats with a zeal for life, even if we make mistakes. The "peace" you bring harkens the death of humanity, not it's salvation.

You don't cherish the things in life that make it beautiful (and no, it's not one on one honorable combat), you only focus on war and fighting, with so little to anything like the arts, or families. These things are what make the IS strong, are what make them fight so hard to stop the Clans. We have loyalty to something beyond "who is the strongest." We are loyal to those who love and care about us...who cares about a Clan Mechwarrior but himself/herself, beyond who can gain the most "honor?"

What are the Clans but tank bred bullies? You subjugate your own people based on age and caste, and Clan Mechwarriors never truly live. What would the Clans do if they did conquer the Inner Sphere? They'd fight amongst themselves, for it's all the know. There would never be a peace, for there is nothing but empty spaces where the Clan's "culture" is concerned.

I'm exaggerating a little bit, for the clans do have a culture, but it's stunted and shunned. Nothing but the ruling warrior caste truly matters to them, and so they strangle themselves and leave humanity and the ideals of their forefathers behind.

To those of you who live and die as a member of the Inner Sphere, do not hate the Clans, for they destroy themselves and are blind to it. Pity them, and never forget what makes you human.

Children are born regularly. They are called freeborn. There is regular *** even among trueborn. They are not warrior monks who have taken a vow of celibacy. Bonds are made from the sibko. The rest of that paragraph sounds like rambling so.....................
The Clans are heavily into the arts & sports. (A Mechwarrior's Guide to the Clans Pg.68-70 would cover all the aforementioned topics) We have loyalty to the Clan as a subject of the Successor States has loyalty to his realm & his lord.

How do you know if Clan warriors ( I left out the mech because there are other branches of the military such as aerospace pilots & elementals etc.) never live? You cannot talk about it because you have not lived it & cannot perceive it. You act as if the caste system is so terrible or so oppressive. Everyone has their place within the Clan & is valued & respected for it. Nothing is wasted. You could not cut it as a warrior, you are of no use to us. Just go somewhere & die. NO that is not what happens. OK so you did not make it as a warrior but there are still ways you can contribute to the Clan.



If the laborer did not struggle to cultivate the resources, to give to the merchant who then trades for the materials to bring to the technicians who then build or improve what the scientists invented or theorized, where would the warrior be? You can pity me all you want when Terra is no longer yours & a real Star League is reborn.

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 11 November 2011 - 11:11 AM.

[Captain Nice HD]

Jaroth Winson, on 09 November 2011 - 06:06 PM, said:

We are not wanna-be anything. We are the epitome of evolution. We have moved away from your diseased culture that promotes greed, waste, corruption & self-destruction.

You claim to have moved away from greed? No Clan ever bothers to create anything of lasting value when they can just steal it from their neighbor in a trail of possession.

Waste and self-destruction? How about those endless live-fire combat rituals you lot are so proud of. I am aware of how the trails are intended to minimize bloodshed by avoiding outright warfare, but the fact is that you just as well compete without bloodshed at all (in simulators, for example). But you insist on resorting to carnage on nearly every occasion, to the inevitable loss of equipment and lives.

Corruption? Obviously you haven't been paying attention to Clan politics. In a society that claims to be based on merit, getting ahead often entails eliminating one's more-capable colleagues. UnClanlike? Certainly. But the idealized Clan society and the reality are only very rarely congruent.


You have evolved, but not in the way that you imagine. Evolution does not necessarily favor enlightenment, but instead the genes of the individual most likely to be selected for procreation. Your culture worships at the altar of ritualized combat and the warrior caste. Through your eugenics program and petty racism, you have bred a superior warrior, but not a superior human being. For you have not distanced yourselves from the evils of the Inner Sphere as you believe you have, but have instead magnified them in yourselves a thousand fold.

Jaroth Winson, on 09 November 2011 - 06:06 PM, said:

We were not given "hyper-weapons" we improved upon Star League era weapons. The fact that we did, while you did not because you were tearing each other apart in the Succesion Wars is no fault of ours. That is your problem. Bunch of whiners the lot of you.

Do not be so quick to boast about your superior technology.

You were, in fact, given your cherished toys. You did not merely take Star League era technology with you on the Exodus; you took the equipment of the elite royal Star League units and the unfinished next-generation weapons projects of the Terran Hegemony. Projects that you dutifully completed during your so-called 'Golden Century', after which you inevitably stagnated. There are precious few inventions that you can genuinely call your own, and it was not until well after your invasion that you were forced to start inventing again--or, indeed, at all.

When the Successor States blasted themselves into the stone age and lost so much technology, they leaned an appreciation for value, and so, when they finally managed to recover that technology prior to your return to the Inner Sphere, they treated it with respect. As for here in the Periphery, the Succession Wars were a time of rebuilding; any loss of technology on our part was the legacy of the widespread industrial and economic sabotage perpetrated by your beloved Star League against our people. You Clans, having never known true hardship, take your technology for granted; your very words betray you in this, as you claim your inheritance as your own achievements.

[Glare]

Simulation can never replace live fire drill, for the simple fact that during a simulation, the participant knows that no harm can come to him or her. Adrenaline, self-preservation, and the desire to see your opponent crushed into the dust at your feet are all powerful motivators.

Besides which, I don't see any overpopulation problems in the Clans.

If one eliminates a rival, that rival was obviously less capable than oneself. Otherwise, he or she would not have been eliminated. Such is the way of the Clans. The old and the weak continually make way for the new and the strong, but not before forcing the new to prove their strength.

[Hodo]

Glare, on 11 November 2011 - 10:17 AM, said:

Hold on a sec, when I stopped laughing so hard I'll answer this. Again.

Okay, that's over. In order:

1) HAHAHAHAHAH! Oh wait, guess it wasn't quite done. First off (part 1a), the 1st and 2nd Succession Wars were devastation unparalleled before and since. Entire planets rendered uninhabitable for decades or centuries. Weapons of mass destruction thrown around like puny little firecrackers. Massed regiments of BattleMechs fighting to the brutal and bloody end for single buildings amid cities, which were then destroyed by the losineg side for the sole purpose of denying them to the enemy. Devastation untold well into and past the Jihad. Part 1b, the Clans were spared from this massive technological backslide. Their ritualized form of combat kills off warriors very quickly, but the materiel, the war-fighting supplies, the infrastructure is all spared. Factories are no longer fought over on location, or destroyed out of spite, they are traded in a chess game of trials and combat far away from the population. Technology is ruthlessly advanced, no steps backward, only forward as fast as this small population base can rush. Every battle gleans more data to refine the deadly weapons, shortens trials, removes more of the danger from civilians.

2) Eugenics is a cakewalk if you have artificial reproduction. No seriously, it's like the easiest thing in the world(s) compared to anything else they're doing. What's the problem with this, exactly? Eugenics have been around for decades in the real world (why hello there, Hitler. lolGodwin without killing the conversation).

3) The fleets are upgraded. Ever take a Clan ASF against an Inner Sphere equivalent? It's not pretty. Not quite as ugly as the ground scene, but still painful to watch.

Ok, lets start with 1...

1- The clans had a very similar set of wars themselves. Their wars werent as BIG, but they were longer. Before whats his name, Nicholas Kerensky changed everything. It wasnt until almost a 100 years after they left the IS did this ritualized form of combat start to happen.

2-They didnt have Eugenics, They had ARTIFICIAL CLONES. TRUE BORN were genetically engineered and vat grown from the genes of the best of the clans.

3-The ships werent touched equipment wise until almost 2 or 3 years AFTER the clans were released. The Aerospace fighters were horrible, 45pts of fuel (or 3 tons) in a fighter that burns through almost a ton a turn. Thats at best laughable.

I know Battletech, but I REALLY know Aerotech, my introduction to the FASA battletech universe was through Aerotech, I picked up the first addition box set back in 1986.

I could literally destroy a entire clan aerospace star with 2 lances of medium fighters. Give me a pair of Corsairs, and a pair of Shilones.

Old saying from Aerotech.

"Mechwarriors may take planets, but you cant win if you dont make it there."

[Captain Nice HD]

Glare, on 11 November 2011 - 11:45 AM, said:

Simulation can never replace live fire drill, for the simple fact that during a simulation, the participant knows that no harm can come to him or her. Adrenaline, self-preservation, and the desire to see your opponent crushed into the dust at your feet are all powerful motivators.

Besides which, I don't see any overpopulation problems in the Clans.

If one eliminates a rival, that rival was obviously less capable than oneself. Otherwise, he or she would not have been eliminated. Such is the way of the Clans. The old and the weak continually make way for the new and the strong, but not before forcing the new to prove their strength.

Yep; that's pretty typical Clan bloody-mindedness there. I really don't see that as a point in their favor. Certainly not when they would deign to impose that system on the rest of humanity, had they their way.

As for the population being low, that is a matter of necessity. There is plenty of room to expand, and viable colonization targets, but there is hardly any incentive in actually establishing new holdings. To do so it to draw resources away from the warrior caste, and it is a liable to be snatched away in a trail of possession by a rival Clan who instead focused singularly on combat. And so the Clans must focus on combat to the exclusion of all other advancements, and much like the Successor States, the ceaselessly compete over an ever-dwindling pool of resources.

[Youngblood]

Jaroth Winson, on 11 November 2011 - 11:05 AM, said:

Children are born regularly. They are called freeborn.

And are instantly treated like second-class citizens, because they're not scientifically "optimized" to fight for a Clan.

Quote

There is regular *** even among trueborn. They are not warrior monks who have taken a vow of celibacy. Bonds are made from the sibko.

And those bonds are severed and regulated at the drop of a hat, because the people running the sibko say so, no free love for you!

Quote

The rest of that paragraph sounds like rambling so.....................

Too long, didn't read?

Quote

The Clans are heavily into the arts & sports. (A Mechwarrior's Guide to the Clans Pg.68-70 would cover all the aforementioned topics) We have loyalty to the Clan as a subject of the Successor States has loyalty to his realm & his lord.

Sports are just another outlet for competition, which neatly ties into warfare. Arts tend to falter when Clanners can take away whatever they think looks pretty from lower castes. You can't compare arts from "societies" that only attempt to mimic animal psychology, with societies that actually attempt equality amongst human beings.

Quote

How do you know if Clan warriors ( I left out the mech because there are other branches of the military such as aerospace pilots & elementals etc.) never live? You cannot talk about it because you have not lived it & cannot perceive it. You act as if the caste system is so terrible or so oppressive. Everyone has their place within the Clan & is valued & respected for it. Nothing is wasted. You could not cut it as a warrior, you are of no use to us. Just go somewhere & die. NO that is not what happens. OK so you did not make it as a warrior but there are still ways you can contribute to the Clan.

Perceiving a way of life does not require one to live it. It only requires one to understand the human emotional driving force behind it. And the human desire to live by taking anything you want is all too easy to understand.

The Clan ideal may be that everyone "places" into Clan "society" as with a meritocracy, but the practical reality of it is that the caste system allows lawless slaughter of lower castes, just because a warrior doesn't like them, as long as no Trials are held against him.

You really like using that ampersand(&), don't you?

Quote

If the laborer did not struggle to cultivate the resources, to give to the merchant who then trades for the materials to bring to the technicians who then build or improve what the scientists invented or theorized, where would the warrior be?

Why do the lower castes have to submit to the Warriors when all they do is take from them? This caste system assumes that warriors aren't just more important, it assumes that they're inherently superior beings. Perfect if you want to feel like you're on top of the world while hassling a little kid for his lunch money.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Captain Nice HD, on 11 November 2011 - 11:39 AM, said:

You claim to have moved away from greed? No Clan ever bothers to create anything of lasting value when they can just steal it from their neighbor in a trail of possession.

That is not greed that is geography. It is the same way it is done in the IS. If you have something we want we can trade for it. If you do not want to trade be prepared to defend it. Also since this is done by a Trial there is no deception or waste of lives. No innocents get harmed in the procuring of a planet that has rich resources or a chemical that is needed for the machines in a factory. There is no personal grudges or malice brought up in these things unless two particular Clans have a history with each other.

"Hey you have Chemical X!"
"We sure do."
"Trade you for Chemical Y."
"Sure"

"Hey you have Chemical X!"
"We sure do."
"Trade you for Chemical Y"
"Sorry not up for trade"
"Trial!"
"OK if you think you got what it takes, go for it."
*trial*
***** we really wanted it."
"Too bad. Maybe next time."

Quote

Waste and self-destruction? How about those endless live-fire combat rituals you lot are so proud of. I am aware of how the trails are intended to minimize bloodshed by avoiding outright warfare, but the fact is that you just as well compete without bloodshed at all (in simulators, for example). But you insist on resorting to carnage on nearly every occasion, to the inevitable loss of equipment and lives.

Let us also keep in mind that a Trial , no matter what the prize or purpose, can be ANYTHING e.g. a coin toss (nova cats), a game of football (ghost bears) or a round of golf (cannot remember the clan off the top of my head right now) & other things such as a footrace or a wrestling match. When was the last time Hanse Davion & Takashi Kurita settled a dispute by teeing off?

Quote

Corruption? Obviously you haven't been paying attention to Clan politics. In a society that claims to be based on merit, getting ahead often entails eliminating one's more-capable colleagues. UnClanlike? Certainly. But the idealized Clan society and the reality are only very rarely congruent.

What else does one do with one's opponents? Not unClanlike at all. You can even go for people above you. As in the case of Mechwarrior Jake Kabrinski who challenged his Star Commander for his position & won it. That right there removes corruption. You actually have to do your job. If someone better than you can do the job they get it & it is not up to the upper management, it is up to you.

Quote

You have evolved, but not in the way that you imagine. Evolution does not necessarily favor enlightenment, but instead the genes of the individual most likely to be selected for procreation. Your culture worships at the altar of ritualized combat and the warrior caste. Through your eugenics program and petty racism, you have bred a superior warrior, but not a superior human being. For you have not distanced yourselves from the evils of the Inner Sphere as you believe you have, but have instead magnified them in yourselves a thousand fold.

Please elaborate. I am genuinely interested in this line of thought. Let us see if it has any merit.

Quote

Do not be so quick to boast about your superior technology.

You were, in fact, given your cherished toys. You did not merely take Star League era technology with you on the Exodus; you took the equipment of the elite royal Star League units and the unfinished next-generation weapons projects of the Terran Hegemony. Projects that you dutifully completed during your so-called 'Golden Century', after which you inevitably stagnated. There are precious few inventions that you can genuinely call your own, and it was not until well after your invasion that you were forced to start inventing again--or, indeed, at all.

I never said that. In fact in another thread I believe I pointed out that we took with us Star League Era tech & built upon it. The fact that we did while you did not is neither our fault nor our problem. If we took anything with us it was people that wished to go. An INVITATION was made to join the Great Father. You have yourself to blame for pushing those people to the point where things were so bad they decided to leave everything they knew behind.

Quote

When the Successor States blasted themselves into the stone age and lost so much technology, they leaned an appreciation for value, and so, when they finally managed to recover that technology prior to your return to the Inner Sphere, they treated it with respect. As for here in the Periphery, the Succession Wars were a time of rebuilding; any loss of technology on our part was the legacy of the widespread industrial and economic sabotage perpetrated by your beloved Star League against our people. You Clans, having never known true hardship, take your technology for granted; your very words betray you in this, as you claim your inheritance as your own achievements.

The Succession Wars were a time of rebuilding? I will leave you to look over the words you chose to type........... We have never knows true hardship? We settled on worlds that could never be called "Paradise". We had to rebuild a society from scratch to the point where the creation of the eugenics program was introduced. We gladly claim our inheritance yet we did not sit idly by. We improved on old designs & created new ones. The OmniMech & the Elemental battle armor. Please tell me or rather show me where the blueprints for these were stolen? What is your great accomplishment? The Mini-Gauss?

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 11 November 2011 - 12:40 PM.

[JAFO]

The only thing good about a clanner is shooting them out from under their mechs with their own technology. I like Clan tech, I like shooting at clanners with it.

Edited by JAFO, 11 November 2011 - 12:31 PM.

[Alizabeth Aijou]

Captain Nice HD, on 11 November 2011 - 11:39 AM, said:

You claim to have moved away from greed? No Clan ever bothers to create anything of lasting value when they can just steal it from their neighbor in a trail of possession.

Almost all warriors from Clan Ghost Bear have a so-called "Great Work" that they'll work on until they die.
A great work can be anything from a painting to a sculpture to whatever else you can think of.

[Aaron DeChavilier]

captain, youngblood, and hodo; appreciate the solid arguments you guys are presenting. The problem
is you're dealing with two very stubborn tankbred who will try to rationalize everything and anything
the clans do. No matter how negative it is, they will never admit it to be a problem or flaw, so there's no
point in trying to counter-point these guys. Just nod your head, pat them on the back and tell them "it's
going to be alright, the world operates on high principles like honor and trials."
BTW who wants to a roleplay a j e r k anyw- oh....yeah...

(it censors 'j e r k' too!?)

Edited by Aaron DeChavilier, 11 November 2011 - 02:33 PM.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Did you even read the reply I wrote to your post?

[Aaron DeChavilier]

Jaroth Winson, on 11 November 2011 - 02:37 PM, said:

Did you even read the reply I wrote to your post?

the chat?
i missed it in my inbox, response sent, and it holds true

[Zakatak]

Motherless test-tube born growths. Lumps of plastic. Not human beings.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Aaron DeChavilier, on 11 November 2011 - 02:45 PM, said:

the chat?
i missed it in my inbox, response sent, and it holds true

No in the thread itself. Whatever. A reply to your PM was sent and that holds true.

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 11 November 2011 - 02:59 PM.

[CeeKay Boques]

We are a species of people. How selfish to just breed with ever bottom has evolved into the sexiest! You should breed for all mankind, so we may advance. Everytime you refuse an excellent tall pilot because he can't fit in the cockpit, you've done us all a disservice. Might as well just breed him with a midget to get the perfect aeroman. Why breed a scientist with a waitress? So their kin can serve new kinds of broth?

[Duffanichta]

Wooooah, what "a monster of discussion" did you all create.

I like diversity , but that is a lot of spam and wasted hate here.

That is why I choose GB - I like it to think and reason before I act.

[Rhinehart]

I've posted several times on what my profile character thinks of the Clans, i.e. the most evil creation of a universe, formed by the biggest coward who ever ran out on a galaxy full of innocent people when they needed him most.

But I want to step back and post about how I see the Clans as a player.

Playing as the Clans=Mop the Floor.

With the edges in Clan Tech, playing as a Clanner is the ultimate invitation to kick the living heck out of any other opponent you face, using the best and coolest tech in the Battletech universe. It's also being able to squeeze the maximum possible effectiveness out of whichever chassis you happen to be piloting. This can be loads of fun, especially when you are in the mood to simply wax the maximum numbers of badguys and let loose a stisfied "Ahhhh" with every explosion.

But even though this is fun, I prefer the second option.

Playing against the Clans:Ultimate test of skill and combat.

The Clans are the Darth Vader of the Mechwarrior universe, the boogeymen, the ultimate bad guys. How do you know you are one hot mechdriver? Take your IS Mech and blow away a Clanner of the same weight class, or higher if you dare. How do you know your outfit is elite? Take on a superior Clan force and find a way to mop the floor with them using IS equipment. There is no greater satisfaction than that of defeating the foe that has all the advantages on their side, except for the fact that they are not you. I love doing this.

It's similar to lots of fun I had in several online WWII flight sims I've played. Sure shoot down a bunch of FW-190D fighters while flying a late model Mustang or Spitfire and you get some recognition. But shoot down those same FWs while flying an early mark Hawker Hurricane and you get noticed! This generally amounts to recognition of doing something difficult, a lot of wondering how in the world you do it and why do you want to heh. You also may get accused of cheating or exploiting which brings in its own satisfaction when what you've done is take your inferior equipment and use it in a superior manner.

So that is what the Clans are to me. Each Clan sillohuette on the side of my IS mech is the next FW on the side of my good old "Hurri" or the next Japanese "Frank" on my P-40B, The next Hellcat on my Zero, the next Mustang on my BF-110 "Zerstorer".

The Clans, defeating them at least represents the ultimate battlefield bragging rights. Even if you never brag anywhere except to yourself.

[Aaron DeChavilier]

Duffanichta, on 11 November 2011 - 03:37 PM, said:

Wooooah, what "a monster of discussion" did you all create.

I like diversity , but that is a lot of spam and wasted hate here.

That is why I choose GB - I like it to think and reason before I act.

it is an incredibly divisive issue; from canon, to game mechanics, to opinions,
and everyone making massive quotes all over the place