66 replies to this topic

[Pater Mors]

Edit:

An explanation of PGI's vision of heat penalties can now be found here: http://mwomercs.com/...te-june-112013/

For the health of this game, I would suggest that everyone voice their displeasure on this idea to the devs. It really will not change anything and punishes one or two builds that are not a problem at all but are being abused which is a symptom of the true problems.

One point that I would specifically like to address from Paul's post:

Quote

We considered the notion of doing a max heat threshold reduction but this would have ended up nerfing every weapon system and every Mech in the game. This is why the heat scale penalty path was chosen since it lets us address every weapon individually and also allows us to take into consideration all Mech builds.

This is simply not true as long as heat dissipation is increased to compensate. This solution will drastically lower all Alpha potential and raise DPS. It will not 'nerf' anything and it is far simpler than having to address every weapon and build individually.

I have created a petition to trial a lowered heat cap/raised dissipation for two weeks. Please sign it. Even if you don't agree with penalties, it is worth trialling this system and regardless of results no one loses anything.
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Original Post:
So Paul let us know a while back that they are looking at heat penalties as an option and this has been discussed a fair bit on these forums of late. For those who've never delved much into MechWarrior or BattleTech, heat penalties have always been a part of both games. I'd like to put forward my own suggestions on how MWO could improve their heat system. Some of these are taken from ideas floating around these forums and some are my own ideas.

Firstly, the heat cap needs either be static per chassis (not really fond of that idea) or the amount increased per heat sink needs to be lowered. I do think it makes sense that a Mech with 25 DHS should have a higher heat cap than the same chassis with 10 DHS, however the amount each HS raises the cap needs to be lowered so the heat cap is lowered overall.

Secondly, the above change will require that the dissipation is increased otherwise we'll be firing 1 weapon ever 30 seconds. Lower heat cap with higher heat dissipation increases DPS while decreasing Alpha damage which is a good thing IMO. It means that you can feasibly chain fire weapons and small weapon combos (2x Lasers etc) without much penalty and can still fit in a good sized strike (5x lasers etc) every once in a while. Sniping even benefits because you can still mount 3PPC's and chain fire them with the dissipation in between shots taking care of your heat.

I think that the above is a good start to balancing out the Alpha meta that is plaguing this game at the moment. Alpha strikes will still be viable but instead of popping three Alpha's, overheating and then repeating, you'll be able to pop one occasionally when it's warranted.

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Now, onto penalties:

I would like to see a mixture of soft and hard penalties for heat with 80% heat as the starting point for soft penalties and 110% the starting point for hard penalties. Let me explain:

Soft penalties:

The soft cap would be applied on a per second basis when a mech is above 80% (or whatever % under 100 seems like a good compromise) heat for long periods:

• 1 - 5 seconds > 80% = No penalty
  
• 6 - 10 seconds > 80% = Engine speed reduced by 10%
  
• 11 - 13 seconds > 80% = Torso twist speed reduced by 10%
  
• 14 - 15 seconds > 80% = HUD interference, pilot sweat graphics (cool idea from the latest Q&A), ghost contacts on the radar, possible targeting interference for missiles and longer ranges
  
• 15 seconds and above > 80% = 50% speed & torso twist reduction.

For the above, cooling off your mech would completely remove all of those penalties bringing you back to normal at about 25% heat.

There's a couple of things this does:

It encourages chain firing, especially in brawls, making brawls last longer.
It provides some tension to battles, especially melees, where both sides are running hot.
It increases skill factor as pilots now have to think about the best times and ways to engage where they're maximizing damage and minimizing heat.
It encourages the use of smaller weapons (which need a buff, but that's a different topic) and even pulse weapons on chain fire and especially for lighter Mechs who can pack less HS of either type.

Now, hard penalties:

Hard penalties need to be applied in two situations.

1: When you pass 110% of heat cap.
2: When you pass 100% of heat cap more than once within a few minutes.

Hard penalties could be something along the lines of:

• 110% - 10% chance of a heat sink melting (lowering overall heat cap for the next overheat)
  
• 115% - 20% chance of a heat sink melting, 10% chance of cooking ammo
  
• 120% - 50% chance of a heat sink melting 25% chance of a second heat sink melting, 20% chance of cooking ammo, 100% chance of 10% engine power reduction (permanently effecting top speed and torso twist speed)
  
• 125% - 100% chance of a heat sink melting 50% chance of a second melting, 50% chance of cooking ammo, 100% chance of 25% engine reduction.
  
• 130% - All of the above plus 50% chance of core meltdown and instant death.
  
• 140% and over - instant death.

The above will have the following effects on gameplay:

It encourages diverse builds because heat management will be easier.
Boating is still possible but is brought back into line with Battletech standard, meaning that boats can be incredibly powerful in one respect, but will have have massive drawbacks and require high skill to pilot properly (which is essentially the idea behind a boat).
Sniping is still very possible, but overall sniper damage is lowered considerably as Alpha Strikes are no longer as viable as chain firing, especially for high heat weapons like PPC's and ER weapons.
It allows lights and mediums to come back into the game in their intended roles, even with the shoddy weapons they currently have available (a subject for a different thread).
It provides another layer of skill to game play as deciding when to overheat is now a critical factor in combat.

Obviously I have pulled most of the actual numbers out of my behind and all of them could and should be tweaked to find the best balance. I'd like to hear what other people think about heat and other possible penalties that could be included and even if you think my ideas are the worst on the forums (please at least be polite about it though).

Edit: Added a poll because they're apparently good things.

Edited by Pater Mors, 16 June 2013 - 02:45 PM.

[zazz0000]

Wait wasn't this already a thread like 3 hours ago? with replies? and views? and.... stuff?

[Pater Mors]

zazz0000, on 31 May 2013 - 06:28 PM, said:

Wait wasn't this already a thread like 3 hours ago? with replies? and views? and.... stuff?

I've posted something similar to this in a bunch of threads and decided to consolidate it into a new, expanded thread here but yes, essentially you're right; there have been a number of threads on this subject lately. I mentioned that in the opening paragraph. I just wanted to lay out my own ideas.

[blinkin]

add a poll and you will get my yes vote.

[Pater Mors]

blinkin, on 31 May 2013 - 06:36 PM, said:

add a poll and you will get my yes vote.

lol, I decided not to add a poll because they don't really get used for anything do they? I mean, I can add one if people want but I figured we had enough polls floating around already.

[Zyrious Tyrel]

I approve, even mechwarrior 4 had more heat penalties than MWO, including slower movement speed and hud interference.

[blinkin]

Pater Mors, on 31 May 2013 - 06:41 PM, said:

lol, I decided not to add a poll because they don't really get used for anything do they? I mean, I can add one if people want but I figured we had enough polls floating around already.

each vote bumps the thread and it is good for showing what people generally like. i tend to throw polls in with all of my suggestions.

[Gelion]

I like it but am unsure about the hard and soft effects. So as to enable new players to get used to the game, they are generally bad at heat maintainance (I know I was). I especially like the soft penalty with the sweat graphics and ghosts on radar. I furthermore like the idea to improve heat dissipation at the cost of overall heat allowance.

It is a good start on brainstorming the topic though, which does need to be done, so as to allow legitimate ppc builds while also curbing the sniping high alpha situation.

[Marj]

I don't think there's any way to encourage chain firing. This certainly wouldn't do it. As a sniper I'd much rather alpha a bit less and keep to cover than chain fire. As a brawler I'd still much rather alpha and then turn away to protect my torso than continually face my opponent.

The only thing chain firing does is remove piloting as a skill because you can't take your reticle off your target so you're forced to circle all the time. If you want to nerf high damage alpha's the best way to do it would put hard point limits on mechs so it isn't posible to take 6 ppc's on a stalker...restrict some of those energy slots to 1 or 2 crit slot weapons only. That would be much better than forcing everyone to stand in the open facing each other and firing until someone falls over. After all, firing a lot of weapons on a light or medium is hardly devastating. It's the assaults that are a problem so the assaults should get the fix.

As for the heat penalties, I agree mechs engines should explode at a certain heat level. I'd rather see slower weapon recycle times, sluggish arm movement, less damage resistance for internal components due to softer hot metal, that sort of thing rather than penalties that involve random chance. They could even include warning messages on the monitors that aren't being used. I think any penalty would be better than nothing though.

[Kitane]

A lowered heat cap and increased heat dissipation is something a lot of people will agree with.

Heat penalties could be more harsh and start at lower heat level.

1) A mech speed, agility and torso twisting is affected by engine power. Make engine power drop gradually and immediately as the heat increases, for example: -10% at 50% heat, -20% at 70% heat, -30% at 80% heat, -50% at 90% heat.

2) Ammo explosion chance should increase with the current heat level. Right now it is 10% when a stack of ammo is destroyed. Make it scale with the heat, with a guaranteed ammo explosion when destroyed by enemy fire at 100%+ heat level.
This would make flamers in combination with other notorious crit seeking weapons an interesting weapon choice against ammo using mechs.

3) The number of heatsinks should be permanently lowered by 1 for every second you spend above 100% during override, 2 at 115%, 3 at 130%...
Overriding a shutdown should be a desperate measure with drawbacks. Overriding twice in a match should leave your mech in a bad shape regardless of how many damage you suffered from the enemy.
Non overriden shutdown should also take out heatsinks, but at lower speed. The initial tick would be same as above, and another loss would occur every 3s instead of every second.

The reason is that people need to learn that overheating is bad, and a shutdown override must be crippling, reserved only for the most desperate moments.

Edited by Kitane, 31 May 2013 - 09:40 PM.

[Pater Mors]

Kitane, on 31 May 2013 - 09:33 PM, said:

A lowered heat cap and increased heat dissipation is something a lot of people will agree with.

Heat penalties could be more harsh and start at lower heat level.

1) A mech speed, agility and torso twisting is affected by engine power. Make engine power drop gradually and immediately as the heat increases, for example: -10% at 50% heat, -20% at 70% heat, -30% at 80% heat, -50% at 90% heat.

2) Ammo explosion chance should increase with the current heat level. Right now it is 10% when a stack of ammo is destroyed. Make it scale with the heat, with a guaranteed ammo explosion when destroyed by enemy fire at 100%+ heat level.
This would make flamers an interesting weapon choice against ammo using mechs.

3) The number of heatsinks should be permanently lowered by 1 for every second you spend above 100% during override, 2 at 115%, 3 at 130%...
Overriding a shutdown should be a desperate measure with drawbacks. Overriding twice in a match should leave your mech in a bad shape regardless of how many damage you suffered from the enemy.
Non overriden shutdown should also take out heatsinks, but at lower speed. The initial tick would be same as above, and another loss would occur every 3s instead of every second.

I'm not sure I like the idea of too many permanent penalties before hitting 100% heat. I feel like that would discourage experimental builds and really discourage boating in any form. Especially not fond of ammo exploding before 100%. That is a massive penalty for any ballistics based Mech, especially one that uses lasers as well, like a K2. Heat sinks should be able to do their job before you hit that 100% cap.

[MasterBLB]

This is very similar to something I proposed earlier.
I'd only add that medium and small lasers needs their heat output be reverted to TT values in your model.

[Pater Mors]

MasterBLB, on 31 May 2013 - 09:41 PM, said:

This is very similar to something I proposed earlier.
I'd only add that medium and small lasers needs their heat output be reverted to TT values in your model.

Sweet, I hadn't seen your thread yet.

I agree that some weapons will need their heat values tweaked a bit under this system but I didn't really want to go into that here. I think that the first two points alone will actually make a lot of weapons more viable. Pulses at the moment don't benefit from the current system compare to regular lasers. With a higher dissipation/lower cap system pulse lasers suddenly become more attractive due to the higher short range dps and the dissipation increasing ROF by default.

I think a lot of the smaller weapons need buffs anyway to bring them in line with their big brothers, regardless of what happens with the heat system. SL's should have their damage buffed and their ROF increased. Pulses need their beam time shortened and ROF increased etc etc.

Edited by Pater Mors, 31 May 2013 - 09:51 PM.

[Soy]

Heat as a mechanic didn't even exist in the MechCommander series. Just sayin.

[Kitane]

Pater Mors, on 31 May 2013 - 09:38 PM, said:

I'm not sure I like the idea of too many permanent penalties before hitting 100% heat. I feel like that would discourage experimental builds and really discourage boating in any form. Especially not fond of ammo exploding before 100%. That is a massive penalty for any ballistics based Mech, especially one that uses lasers as well, like a K2. Heat sinks should be able to do their job before you hit that 100% cap.

The engine power decrease wouldn't be permanent, it would be in effect only when you are above that heat level. And with increased heat dissipation you would have to wait only few moments to get most of your power back.

The current 10% chance for ammo explosion is low enough to ignore it. Making it more susceptible to explosion at higher heat levels would spice it up a little bit. It doesn't have to scale up to 100% and it could only affect ammo stacks destroyed by critical hits. Ammo lost with destroyed component wouldn't suffer from this.

Mechs can store up to 5 tons of ammo fairly safely in legs and in the cockpit. Safely in a sense that if the armor on that part gets stripped, the component is most likely to be destroyed before crits accumulate enough damage and trigger the explosion. And losing that part is a death sentence most of the time anyway.
Up to 1-2 more tons can be stored elsewhere, because it will get used up first, when the mech still has its armor intact (hopefully).
It would be a real drawback only for LRM assault boats that are walking munition trucks.

Edited by Kitane, 31 May 2013 - 09:58 PM.

[MasterBLB]

Well,truth be told I'm not convinced these soft penalties for heat above 80% are necessary,but I do agree overheating and overriding shutdown must have some serious consequences.You have stightly different but interesting vision than mine.
Ah,and I forgot to like your post and vote,I'm sorry.

[Pater Mors]

Soy, on 31 May 2013 - 09:53 PM, said:

Heat as a mechanic didn't even exist in the MechCommander series. Just sayin.

That's true, but MechCommander wasn't meant to simulate a pilot experience. It was meant to simulate someone sitting in a command ship planning and orchestrating entire battles and campaigns just like in the intro:


So heat is not a direct issue for someone in a command role who's probably not even on the Battlefield. Obviously, we are now in the pilot seat so heat is a direct issue for us.

Edit: And MC2 did have heat to some extent, but only when designing a Mech not when in combat.

Edited by Pater Mors, 31 May 2013 - 10:03 PM.

[Brilig]

Some good ideas in there, and I think somewhere in ASD 39 they mentioned that they are looking at adding heat penalties in.

[TheComet]

Some great ideas here, they fix some of the core problems without causing any nasty side-effects (other than players needing to re-rig a few of their mechs to compensate, which shouldn't be TOO bad)

[Lyoto Machida]

Heat penalties kinda go against the idea of dumbing down the game for mass consumption, no? I mean, how are we gonna get all these 12 year old kids to play?