1217 replies to this topic

[Asmosis]

what happened to the good old days when people read that epilepsy warning on the game catridge box, and if they experienced dizziness, sickness and so forth, stopped playing?

I'm actually serious here. If somethings making you sick, don't do it. that has n.o.t.h.i.n.g to do with how a game should be balanced. nothing whatsoever.

[Kaemon]

Asmosis, on 05 June 2013 - 05:54 AM, said:

what happened to the good old days when people read that epilepsy warning on the game catridge box, and if they experienced dizziness, sickness and so forth, stopped playing?

I'm actually serious here. If somethings making you sick, don't do it. that has n.o.t.h.i.n.g to do with how a game should be balanced. nothing whatsoever.

So your advocating they lose a percentage of their player base (however small you think it is) rather than make a minor change that would fix the issue without really altering the original intent?

PGI this person thinks exactly the same way you do, you should hire him ASAP before he gets away.

womp womp.

[Delas Ting Usee]

Tried the Jump jets - nauseating as hell - I think it was due to try to follow the bouncing reticle.

If I do suffer a seizure - who do I sue?

[Sasha Volkova]

Honestly if you feel like shake should be removed then I suggest dramaticly increasing the randomness and the area that the crosshair can move in aswell as adding even more complicated patterns so taht no1 can ever jumpsnipe again.
PGI I believe, have already stated they didnt want jumpsniping to be a thing so dont expect it to become a valid playstyle again.
Ofc I am aware that people getting sick from playing is a serious issue, but just removing the shake will cause people to once again jumpsnipe.

Also I think people that QQ about the shake are being a bit dramatic... I have brawled just fine in my Catapult C1(yes I like to brawl in that since not all people can aim so well if you jump around) and my Jenner F aswell.
And personally I see no problem with the shake - quite the opposite since I think it adds a nice feeling of immersion when I fire them up and my mech weighing several tons actually starts feeling like I am flying around in it.

Edited by 0okami, 05 June 2013 - 06:09 AM.

[ArchMage Sparrowhawk]

Can we avoid playing backlash pong? Trading one groups backlash for another's?

Some people really hated poptarts. (Some people really hated jumpjets in general if we go back far enough.) I see people saying that the disorienting physical discomfort is good because they dislike poptarts so much? A raise in difficulty for jump jetting heavy weapons platforms, that could be considered. Eagerly grasping onto any kind of nerf of a system because you dislike it so, no matter how painful or clumsy it is? That's not helping, in the long run that's hurting the game.

What we need is balance, not tide shifts for buffs or nerfs. The example of the spider also being affected the same way as a highlander by jj shake? Why would it be different? Well less mass and thrust involved. The spider's role is to be a jumping shooter with small arms. And is the shake effect even accurate? Are these mechs really being shaken apart so dramatically? A lot of those things need to be addressed in the coming weeks while they figure out where to go with this.

It's certainly not ready, and I'm not sure it's even good.


wanna prevent jumpsniping? randomize the accuracy invisibly. Give a tiny and gentle visible shake of the reticle. Same difference. Less effective shots, Jump snipers get the message. Don't give my mech the alcoholic shakes. We don't need actual discomfort to police gamers do we?

Edited by ArchMage Sparrowhawk, 05 June 2013 - 06:12 AM.

[Serapth]

Kaemon, on 05 June 2013 - 05:57 AM, said:

So your advocating they lose a percentage of their player base (however small you think it is) rather than make a minor change that would fix the issue without really altering the original intent?

PGI this person thinks exactly the same way you do, you should hire him ASAP before he gets away.

womp womp.

I've decided I am no longer even going to bother replying to the chronically stupid posters like Asmosis here. Its much more peaceful and its not like you are going to educate them in the slightest anyway. As the brilliant George Carlin famously said:

“Never argue with an *****. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.”

[Kenyon Burguess]

no illness issues here with the shaking. didn't make any differences in my playstyle for my light and mediums with jumpjets. I am perfectly happy watching the heavies and assaults shoot each other in the back because they want to short hop and shoot, instead of getting a decent height and letting off to stabilize.

[DeathofSelf]

I find it really hard to believe that people are getting nauseous from the reticle shake.... Do you not pilot fast mechs? Do you not play any fast moving games? Not watch any action movies? Give me a break.

Edited by DeathofSelf, 05 June 2013 - 06:10 AM.

[Serapth]

DeathofSelf, on 05 June 2013 - 06:09 AM, said:

I find it really hard to believe that people are getting nauseous from the reticle shake.... Do you not pilot fast mechs? Do you not play any fast moving games? Not watch any action movies? Give me a break.

Seriously, do any of you people even read the #@$@#$ing thread?

[Kaemon]

Serapth, on 05 June 2013 - 06:12 AM, said:

Seriously, do any of you people even read the #@$@#$ing thread?

Ahaha, you have the same disease I do, you see dumb and you have to try to help kill it.

Alas we are incurable.


Streak Cats grow strong off the fear of flying mechs...grow strong young one, your day will come again, and that right soon.

Edited by Kaemon, 05 June 2013 - 06:18 AM.

[Nathan Hawk]

im not an avid user of JJ, so this isnt as much a problem for me, but i can see why they did it. You've got a 30-90 ton mech trying to blast itself into the air with dirty great big thrusters, thats going to be unstable movement to a degree. However, i agree with some of the people that the shake is far too great.

That being sad, it didn't effect my aim too badly while piloting my spider-5D. i dont even think the screen shake changed the aiming of my laser as i was firing it....

[Esplodin]

This is a horrible change that breaks way more than it fixes:

1) Craps on my beloved Spider even more - and I didn't think that was possible after the bap change and wall-hack module
2) Fixes nothing, since the shake stops shortly after letting off the jets - herp derp.
3) Makes jump-brawling a RNG mech vs. a non RNG mech.
4) Can no longer jump over a team mate to fire, since there is a good chance I'll be hitting the team mate.
5) precision jumping is just about impossible
6) Users are reporting headaches and nausia. If even 5% of the users are being truthful it needs an immediate fix.

Why we need to constantly invent brand new mechanics when adjusting the ones we already have would be enough? It only makes future balancing even harder by making they systems more complex.

1) Convergence - drop it to zero when JJ active. I know it is instant, which is BROKEN. Fix the broken mechanic and lock weapons on current converged distance while in flight.
2) Heat - up the heat on PPCs. Hey, that would fix PPC boat stalkers too! Would also save engineering time on the "boat" heat penalty you are working on which will crap squarely on the medium chassis.

[Mawai]

Here is my feedback ...

1) I think the feature (or something similar) is absolutely required to reduce the accuracy of weapons while jumping. There should be a "penalty" in these circumstances and a hindrance to precise aiming makes sense.

2) The new jump jet shake does not make light mechs harder to play or any less effective in my experience. I've played a few matches in my Jenner with the new implementation and it is just as effective as before ... though I have to admit I mostly use the jump jets for maneuvering and not sniping.

3) All that said, if the shake is making some people nauseous then it really needs to be toned down and I think it can be toned down and still be effective.

It is possible that the main issue as far as feelings of nausea is concerned is that the amount of shake of the different screen elements is not consistent. The targeting reticle appears to shake far more than the screen. I have found that I just don't look at the reticle when jumping anymore ... I just aim in the general direction of the center of the view. One possible solution might be to completely remove the aiming reticle when jumping and leave a moderate screen shake ... though I don't know what would be done for lock-on weapons ... and it leaves open the possibility of folks hacking the client to put the aiming reticle back in.

4) One observation though ... it wasn't clear when I was test firing medium lasers while jumping that there was any correlation between the reticle and actually aiming spot. It seemed to me that if I ignored all the apparent shaking I could still hold the weapons on the target with reasonable efficiency (i.e. the lasers themselves weren't shaking) ... but I wasn't able to test for whether the apparent hits were registered or not ... when firing at opposing mechs the reticle did turn red though indicating some sort of hit.


In conclusion, yes I think a feature like this is justified and useful to reduce the impact of the poptart metagame. However, it seems to me that the implementation can be toned down or modified to achieve the original goal while not making some people feel nauseous.

Additional comments after some testing ground practice:

1) Shake and nausea inducing effects are much worse when zoomed in. I wasn't bothered at the regular view but it was less comfortable when zoomed and trying to aim precisely (focus on reticle). Shake while running around in my jenner at 150kph unzoomed didn't seem much worse than the usual bump up and down due to varying terrain.

2) Initial aiming points for lasers and ballistics appear to be about the same when jumping. However, for a jumping mech with arm lasers these can be brought back and held on target despite the shaking. Torso mounted lasers on some chassis do not have sufficient pitch rate to track a target while jumping (e.g. Highlander firing at a stationary target at 200m while jumping). In addition, the laser duration makes them more difficult to use during just the second half of a jump when there is no shake. Also, weapons do not fire at the reticle during JJ operation, they can be randomly aimed somewhere near where the reticle is aiming.

3) Waiting to fire until after the shaking stops works fine for ballistics/PPC. The added challenge here is that there is only a split second to get the cross hairs onto the target at the top of the jump. So although poptart firing is still possible it is much more challenging and not nearly so precise. (Practising on Testing Grounds is a good idea if you want to try this maneuver with JJ shake). Folks with aimbots may not have trouble but then their success will make them very noticeable as well and easier to ban.

Edited by Mawai, 05 June 2013 - 07:35 AM.

[Muffinator]

OK so I tried it out (not a pop tarter, just my cat using it for mobility in combat). I like the effect, I think it makes sense and addresses pop tards. It is a touch overdone though - I feel very nauseous after just a few jumps and I'm usually not affected by motion or sea sickness etc. I think id the reticule shook and weapon spread was affected but the actual camera shook half as much it'd be fine.

Edited by Muffinator, 05 June 2013 - 06:26 AM.

[Kunae]

Mawai, on 05 June 2013 - 06:25 AM, said:

Here is my feedback ...

1) I think the feature (or something similar) is absolutely required to reduce the accuracy of weapons while jumping. There should be a "penalty" in these circumstances and a hindrance to precise aiming makes sense.

2) The new jump jet shake does not make light mechs harder to play or any less effective in my experience. I've played a few matches in my Jenner with the new implementation and it is just as effective as before ... though I have to admit I mostly use the jump jets for maneuvering and not sniping.

3) All that said, if the shake is making some people nauseous then it really needs to be toned down and I think it can be toned down and still be effective.

It is possible that the main issue as far as feelings of nausea is concerned is that the amount of shake of the different screen elements is not consistent. The targeting reticle appears to shake far more than the screen. I have found that I just don't look at the reticle when jumping anymore ... I just aim in the general direction of the center of the view. One possible solution might be to completely remove the aiming reticle when jumping and leave a moderate screen shake ... though I don't know what would be done for lock-on weapons ... and it leaves open the possibility of folks hacking the client to put the aiming reticle back in.

4) One observation though ... it wasn't clear when I was test firing medium lasers while jumping that there was any correlation between the reticle and actually aiming spot. It seemed to me that if I ignored all the apparent shaking I could still hold the weapons on the target with reasonable efficiency (i.e. the lasers themselves weren't shaking) ... but I wasn't able to test for whether the apparent hits were registered or not ... when firing at opposing mechs the reticle did turn red though indicating some sort of hit.


In conclusion, yes I think a feature like this is completely justified and necessary to reduce the impact of the poptart metagame. However, it seems to me that the implementation can be toned down or modified to achieve the original goal while not making some people feel nauseous.

No.

Because this:

Esplodin, on 05 June 2013 - 06:24 AM, said:

This is a horrible change that breaks way more than it fixes:

1) Craps on my beloved Spider even more - and I didn't think that was possible after the bap change and wall-hack module
2) Fixes nothing, since the shake stops shortly after letting off the jets - herp derp.
3) Makes jump-brawling a RNG mech vs. a non RNG mech.
4) Can no longer jump over a team mate to fire, since there is a good chance I'll be hitting the team mate.
5) precision jumping is just about impossible
6) Users are reporting headaches and nausia. If even 5% of the users are being truthful it needs an immediate fix.

Why we need to constantly invent brand new mechanics when adjusting the ones we already have would be enough? It only makes future balancing even harder by making they systems more complex.

1) Convergence - drop it to zero when JJ active. I know it is instant, which is BROKEN. Fix the broken mechanic and lock weapons on current converged distance while in flight.
2) Heat - up the heat on PPCs. Hey, that would fix PPC boat stalkers too! Would also save engineering time on the "boat" heat penalty you are working on which will crap squarely on the medium chassis.

I've underlined the really really important part of the quote.

[Marec Soronson]

I got motion sickness the first time I tried a mech with JJs after the patch (an anti-light Trebuchet with MLs and Streaks).
It was the same for the Heavy Metal and the Spider. This is really bad, but the worst was to spectate after my Mech was shot: Watching a spider pilot running and jumping around will make you puke like a hard core anorexic.

Please, remove the cockpit shake, TRIPLE the crosshair shake if you like. As it is, just using the Jump jets for maneuvering is most annoying. The cockpit shake makes precise jumps harder too. As it is, jump jets have been nerfed far too hard.

[DeaconW]

More Dread, on 05 June 2013 - 02:57 AM, said:

for the last time.. ppl are not asking for their poptarts back.

Some certainly are in this category(wanting poptarting to return).

Quote

we wanna be able to play with JJs without feeling sick.

Some certainly are in this category(those not is category A above).

Quote

stop claiming you know whats going on.. its disrespectful and youre just painting yourself in a really bad light for those who HAVE the issue and know its not lies.

Understandable...but there are very few ways to distinguish between group A and Group B and to prevent MWO from going back to what it was before it is more logical to assume category A until convinced otherwise. There were too many people in game exploiting the broken meta to assume that none are in here feigning illness to get their easy mode back.

Quote

the way you have presented yourself in here i will have a pretty hard time taking you seriously on future issues that might arise.

Understandable. I was a bit over-the-top last night in my glee over poptarting getting nerfed. I apologize. For light and medium pilots who are truly getting motion sick, you have my sympathy and the reduction in screen shake coming will hopefully mitigate those issues.

Edited by DeaconW, 05 June 2013 - 06:41 AM.

[DeaconW]

Nebelfeuer, on 05 June 2013 - 03:01 AM, said:

Again folks JJ shake did nothing to prevent poptarting -

Um..except that there are very few of them now in matches(at least all the ones I was in last night save one...and we ROFLstomped that poptart-heavy team). This would be evidence contrary to your claim.

[Dakkath]

I've cleaned up this thread a little bit. Please refrain from posting off-topic responses. Please keep the discussion constructive.

Thanks,
Dak

[Galen Crayn]

HSP - Hyper Sensitive Persons. 20% of the population has this "illness". For them its nearly impossible to play with this shaking. 20% is a lot... So if you want to have 100% players enjoying this game you have to stop that shaking. All other changes are perfect. Good work PGI.