1217 replies to this topic

[DeaconW]

Mystere, on 06 June 2013 - 05:15 PM, said:

No. Urbanmechs with machineguns for the win!

Ooo...I would totally go for adding a game mode that was urbanmech only...

[Nebelfeuer]

Get rid of JJ changes out of health and balance reasons.

And get rid of all builds that allow boating style gameplay and you have all problems fixed. This includes: LRM boats, Laser boats, Poptart-/Stepup-/Whatever--snipers , Ac boats.
All you need to do is disallow more then two BIG guns with the same firingbehaviour to be either carried or hit exactly the same spot or make using them come a harsh and extreemly high cost( long shutdowntimes /mechexplosions/...)

examples of some of your recent changes consequences:

JJ changes did not fix poptarting it destroyed all vilable uses for JJ and with poptarts being hurt the least + made people feel sick + made the aim=skill=what is intennded rule of the devs a joke.

PPC recicletime changes did not balance the weapon with other big energy weapons, it destroyed the balance between single and multiple PPC builds while totally ignoring the main balancing factor that limits the use of PPCs: heat.
Result 1ppc builds are punished - multiple ppc builds basically unaffected
.
Everyone welcoming the current JJ situation is obviously fond of forcing other players to their playstyle and even willing to accept other players physical discomfort for it.
So take that as a hint to force players into a situation where they can not play onesided builds that will always tip the scale into one direction or another and start making your game as awesome as it could be with lots of valid playstyles that are more balanced as a whole. Otherwise the mayority of players will allways try to go the path of least resistance and you will break your game over it.

Poosible ways to do that: harsher heatregulations, addittinal weaponslot limitation(e.g 3 single energyweaponsslots on the original mech can be taken by up to 3 singleslot energy weapons or one single 3 slot energyweapon / one 3slot energyslot can be taken by a single energyweapon with up to 3 slots), weaponnoneconvergence. all of these suggestions have been made multiple times in the forums. AND please: there is no need to try to implement all three of them at the same time! One step after the other so you can analyse the results is the way to do it.

That being said I am tired of discussing this game and due to the fact that I loved JJ manouvering and it gives me headaces with the current change. This will be my last post. I´m not willing to stay on this rollercosterrider ride of balance madness anymore.
Will probably llook again at offcial release if you managed to find a good and stable balance that makes me want to play and spent money again.
Good luck and best wishes. Had some fun for a while.

[Mystere]

DeaconW, on 06 June 2013 - 04:42 PM, said:

Funny how so many people are all starting with that phrase now...even though there are posters who are posting "there was nothing wrong with poptarting" with a straight face...

What choice do people really have if they, by merely complaining about a nerf, are themselves accused of abusing the just nerfed mechanic? Would you rather they kept silent instead of taking the verbal abuse (for lack of a better term)?

[ArchMage Sparrowhawk]

DeaconW, on 06 June 2013 - 04:40 PM, said:

Actually from a LOT of people's point of view.



Nope..like em...use em on my Jenner, Catapult and Blackjack...



Yep, guilty as charged. I am biased...biased against a game-breaking meta. I am for a balanced game.



Sure helped reduce it a lot, tho...didn't it?



Tell you what, let's introduce a weapon in the game that can reach the entire map and if I see you first it is a one shot kill, no questions asked. In fact, if I just hover my cursor over you first, you die. If it is in the game it can't be a broken meta, right? Even if everyone is exploiting it and using the <redacted>-bots we all know are available for the game. So you just have to figure a way to defeat it ,right...because we can't discourage it, right?

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Seriously...at this point you have pretty much confirmed you are a poptarder who lost their easy mode. Cry me a river. The meta has changed. Deal with it.

oh you can kiss my ruby red monkey *** for that one deake.

Some people. Some vocally determined people on the boards thought it was a game breaking component. Maybe you're that stubborn Jenner who likes to walk out and die by the boats in Forest Colony and you've been bitter ever since. I don't think that even a LOT of people who share an opinion justify nerfing Jump Jet fire like has been done. And I was actually excited by the prospect actually, because I thought it would be cool. But I realized my mistake when I actually patched and saw what had been wrought.

No I'm not a poptarder, as you so cleverly put it. I'm a scout mech specialist, who dabbles in atlases. I was maining a Spider when this thing happened, and today was the first time in a while I actually brought my old CTF-3D out of mothballs. I AM a Jump Jet fire specialist though. Because my Primary mech for a long time was a U\AC5 Raven with 3 JumpJets, which spent most of it's time jumping around Atlases and pecking at their eyeballs from the air. And I have been learning how to disembowl large mechs with my ballistic spider. I'm taking the time, explaining myself to you, to illustrate that you basically know **** about me and my play style. You're so sure, because your passionate dislike, but I have no problems with poptarts. So yeah lets air that major difference out. You hate poptarts with a passion, you blame them for breaking the game, and I think they are annoying and clever and break nothing.

You mention aimbots. That has nothing to do with this either. You think this will affect aimbots? This is about you and poptarts. You have no basis for saying poptarting is invalid or illogical part of using a robot with weapons and jumpjets capable of a simple verticle jump. Yes it's inconvenient, but it's also extremely simple. It shouldn't be as effective as it is, and the reason for that HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH JUMPJETS AT ALL. HOW ABOUT THAT? COOLING BUFFS AND WEAPON BUFFS that make poptarting so cheaply exploitable. And all this bending over backward handwaving to construct some artificial reason to make it harder has affected MY game. Which had nothing to do with your crusade against poptarts. But no, that's balance, because I obviously must be a PopTarder since I like using jump jets and shooting things.

Edited by ArchMage Sparrowhawk, 06 June 2013 - 05:40 PM.

[Vermithrax Rex]

HEY....HEY...HEY.......Wayyyyy too much on the shake guys.

I'm not a poptart, BTW. I run a Trebuchet 7M with 3mlas and 3 SSRM's. I DO use the jumpjets I have to manuever and to jump out of the way of assault mech's bearing down on me boating PPC's (and to chase down and punish pesky little light mechs). But this "upgrade" is way too much. Streaks loose target so the little mech's just run around with impunity. I am running Beagle, 360 target, and Seismic........are you telling me that with all that I can't fire streaks? And unfortunately, I AM one of those that gets motion sick (much to my boys' chagrin, who want nothing more than for me to play Halo or Call of Duty with them). Some shake is ok.....but holy crap........I'm guessing this amount majorly jacked up the players that use jumpjets. Maybe y'all were a bit too enthusiatic, me thinks.

[Bagheera]

Dear PGI:

In the future, when attempting to resolve an issue with a narrow selection of builds, please refrain from unnecessarily cross-fire nerfing other builds that are doing fine on the balance scale (prior to said cross-fire) in the process.

K?

Your most sincere devotee,

Trebuchet-5J

[Edustaja]

Some of the basic, but fun mechs have suffered a lot because of this. The Catapults f.ex. are not very fun anymore. You can't use jumpjets to tag anyone as the reticule shake is so bad, there's also no compensating for it as it's random. This "fix" just removed one style of play entirely without really affecting high alpha builds. Instead of jumping highlanders you now have walking ones with stalkers and RS atlases to boot. No use bringing anything lighter than an assault mech anyways.

[Lindonius]

There's some interesting feedback on JJ shake on the mechwarrior meme thread.......

http://mwomercs.com/.../page__st__7100

[MacKoga]

Taking this discussion in a different direction, why is it so important to nerf things in the first place?

If mechs of all weight ranges are to be equally valid choices to bring to the battlefield, then all mechs need some sort of edge, some way that that choice can really beat mechs on the other team. When a player does do well in such a mech, many people on the forums will say a build is overpowered.

But what happens when many weapon systems and builds get nerfed? Only really big mechs are generally valid choices, except maybe a capping scout or so on a team. This is because if all systems end up kinda 'blah,' with no way to make them truly deadly in the right situation, then the best mech is the one that can carry the most blah to throw at the other mechs.

If, instead, less nerfing is done, then there are many mechs, all considered OP, but for very different reasons, and really only when the circumstances are just right. In other words, we get more specialization, tactical diversity, and, in my opinion, a more fun game.


Did nerfing jump jets make the game more fun? Not in my opinion.

[Burpitup]

I have to say there are a lot of Poptart haters. i understand that. It is very effective, and people complain a lot when they get shot a lot. It amazes me that when i am poptarting and someone just stands there and lets me do it. Then complains that it should be banned. They do make a button on the key board that will make you move.

I still do it and do it pretty well. So you are just going to have to keep hating me. I don't feel it is much different than LRM boats. They can hide and fire with out ever presenting a target. If you get a couple guys with 3 or 4 LRM 15's they are going to be way more damaging than myself and my buddy poptarting with our ppc blackjacks.

I think the shaking is a bit excessive. It would be nice to have it dialed down a notch. Mostly because of how bad it has nerfed the Light mechs. for the light mechs they can't turn and shoot in the air very well at all anymore. For me in my Med mech it has just changed the way i do it a little bit. It is a little harder but with a little practice it is still plenty do able.

[Arcturious]

DeaconW, on 06 June 2013 - 02:48 PM, said:

Ironic. A slight modification and your complaint now describes the poptart meta perfectly. Shoes on the other foot now, isn't it? Welcome to the wonderful world of balance.

Do you even read what you are posting? Unless the pilot using jump jets is armed with LRM's, then they are using a direct fire weapon. If they are using a direct fire weapon, they have to have line of sight. If they have line of sight on you, then you have LoS on them. If you can see them, you have exactly the same length of time to fire back as they do.

It's basic physics. If your world view is so skewed that you can't see this, then I can't have a reasoned debate with you.

Wintersdark - You are describing tactical applications. Not balance. Of course sometimes things aren't equal, however your analogies are similar to complaining that because mechs with two legs move faster than mechs with one leg, we should make all mechs one legged. You can only balance systems from an equal playing field, then the systems can be applied in tactical situations. Those situations then create metas, which may require balance changes. Those balance changes however still need to be created around the same conditions or you risk corrupting the systems.

Once the systems break down, you get into a free fall where future changes are entropic and your systems fall apart faster. You start getting too many variables applied to separate conditions. You start running into problems in communicating how the game works to your users. Try thinking about this from the point of view of a new player. How do you convey the information to them about Jump jet functions?

Class five jump jets provide 10% random reticle displacement. Class four is 30%. Class two jump jets will provide 40% displacement. Class one 50%. Now what about using more than one JJ? Is this affected by tonnage - is Class 5 on a Spider different to class 5 on a Raven? If so, why? Is there a formula for this? Perhaps shake = (Percentage shake * tonnage) / JJ class? Just with this change alone you are creating exponentially more variables and information that has to be taken in and believable to a new player.

If there is no explanation other than "space magic", you start to crack the suspension of disbelief. Each crack wears away at the foundation of consistency and realism the world contains. After a while, the "feel" slips too far and you start losing people.

It's an explanation that has been given for example as a corner stone of WoW's success. Their animations, reactions and interaction of their characters "feels" consistent. Getting that feel right is critical and the further PGI slips with these arbitrary balance changes the harder it will be to climb that hill again.

Edited by Arcturious, 06 June 2013 - 06:43 PM.

[Mystere]

MacKoga, on 06 June 2013 - 06:12 PM, said:

When a player does do well in such a mech, many people on the forums will say a build is overpowered.

That's because the prevailing attitude seems to be:

I am a mechwarrior God. Gods cannot be killed. But he just killed me. Therefore, whatever he is using is definitely OP.

Edited by Mystere, 06 June 2013 - 06:40 PM.

[Vermithrax Rex]

Lot's of discussion on pop-tarting here. Was that the ONLY reason this was done? If so then y'all used a shotgun approach to a narrow problem on the game.

I mentioned earlier that I'm not a pop-tart sniper, but:

Have I been killed by them? Yes.

Have I been killed by them excessively? No.

Why? Terrain, Maneuverability, and Speed (insert Terrain again if you are slow).

I was a Scout in the Army. There was this saying: What can be seen can be hit. What can be hit can be destroyed.

Anyone that doesn't use terrain and just stands there to be sniped to death kinda deserves it. Just like anyone that just stands there when they KNOW the missles are coming in.......kinda deserves it.

I've been chewed up a heck of a lot more by missle barrages when the OPFOR has a spotter, than I have by snipers.

Edited by csmonkey, 06 June 2013 - 07:03 PM.

[Burpitup]

MacKoga, on 06 June 2013 - 06:12 PM, said:

If mechs of all weight ranges are to be equally valid choices to bring to the battlefield, then all mechs need some sort of edge, some way that that choice can really beat mechs on the other team. When a player does do well in such a mech, many people on the forums will say a build is overpowered.


Did nerfing jump jets make the game more fun? Not in my opinion.

I would aggree. I have been killed with one shot from a 6ppc stalker. Should they be nerfed? I have been killed by a few rounds of lrm 15's. I never even seen the guy shooting. Should that be nerfed. If you want a balanced game then make 1 type of mech. Make is so they all have 4 med lazers and have at it. there is your balance.

[MonkeyCheese]

Mystere, on 06 June 2013 - 04:31 PM, said:

Even though I myself don't poptart, it really looks like if enough people cry, whine, and scream to the high heavens, the devs will succumb to the mob.

Sigh.

Mystere, on 06 June 2013 - 05:33 PM, said:

What choice do people really have if they, by merely complaining about a nerf, are themselves accused of abusing the just nerfed mechanic? Would you rather they kept silent instead of taking the verbal abuse (for lack of a better term)?

Yup isnt it fun

So basically what im getting from this thread and our wonderful community is;

There are people posting here who read threads, understand our health complaints, or even care about them........ oh wait?

Why are people here in the feed back thread? Oh thats right not to provide any kind of constructive feed back or complaints or even bother to read the complaints and other possible suggestions...no not at all.

It is very very clear that people here dont give a dam about anything other then the reason for the nerf, they are just here to rejoice that poptarts are nerfed no matter the cost and what that cost means to other players mech choices and health issues, just to just tell everyone else to shut the hell up regardless of our reasons and to tell us to man up and move on from the jumpjets that we love because they dont use jumpjets, and to call us all liars and crybabys and so on because they are outside of the bubble that is getting affected by this bandaid fix.


To sum it up all the high alpha grounded heavy and assault playstyles are completely fine with this as long as they are not affected by it at all, because clearly there is no problem with high alpha mechs but there is a problem with high alpha mechs that have jumpjets and therefore more choices in movement and tactics so clearly the banhammer must come down on those playstyles because they have advantages that the grounded mechs dont and thats all fine even if it means that light/medium/heavy/assault pilots who dont use gauss/ppc with jumpjets and people who get sick all get nerfed at the same time, cus apparently we are all poptarts it seems.


tldr- I Love our great Mechwarrior Community....

Edited by MonkeyCheese, 06 June 2013 - 07:28 PM.

[Vaan]

There's nothing wrong for implementing JJ shakes on light because pop-tarting is all on every mechs that have JJ regardless whether it's a light or medium mech. But since there are some ppl who complain getting motion sickness in this little shakes, let just hope that PGI can reduce the shakes a bit..

[DeaconW]

ArchMage Sparrowhawk, on 06 June 2013 - 05:36 PM, said:

oh you can kiss my ruby red monkey *** for that one deake.

No thanX. I prefer blue monkey bottoms, sorry.

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No I'm not a poptarder, as you so cleverly put it. I'm a scout mech specialist, who dabbles in atlases. I was maining a Spider when this thing happened, and today was the first time in a while I actually brought my old CTF-3D out of mothballs. I AM a Jump Jet fire specialist though.

OK, so when the shake thing is minimized but the other stuff remains your should be all good.

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I have no problems with poptarts. So yeah lets air that major difference out. You hate poptarts with a passion, you blame them for breaking the game, and I think they are annoying and clever and break nothing.

And this is where we disagree because I care about the *whole* game, not just my little part.

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You have no basis for saying poptarting is invalid or illogical part of using a robot with weapons and jumpjets capable of a simple verticle jump.

Dude,. read the thread...this has been explained ad nauseum and is supported by a LOT of people.

[Vaan]

Aggressor666, on 05 June 2013 - 07:14 PM, said:

really? YOU mean to tell me you cant handle a med or (chuckle) a light without being able to close the distance and kill it? are you actually saying that?

Oh YOU? Got **** by my founder hunchie while you trying to ''jump'' your way out on yesterday match? Learn to play dude..









I mean ''maneuver"...

Edited by Vaan, 06 June 2013 - 07:48 PM.

[Skribs]

Actually, for me the screen shake wasn't what was bad. The crosshair shake made me dizzy, though, to the point where I would not watch my crosshair during jumps and only look back after I stop using the jets.

The other big problem with this is that poptarting is still fairly easy. I think less speed, more distance in the shake (thinking sniper rifle zoomed in in most FPS games) and shake throughout the whole jump would be a better solution.

[DeaconW]

Mystere, on 06 June 2013 - 05:33 PM, said:

What choice do people really have if they, by merely complaining about a nerf, are themselves accused of abusing the just nerfed mechanic? Would you rather they kept silent instead of taking the verbal abuse (for lack of a better term)?

My point wasn't an accusation...it was pointing out that poptarting is disliked by a lot of the community to the point people make a point to separate themselves from it....yet there are still people that feign surprise.