1217 replies to this topic

[Aggressor666]

DeaconW, on 06 June 2013 - 03:57 PM, said:

Um..I did. Still thought it was OP.

what was it that made it OP exactly?
could it be the hordes of window lickers charging the open field at the "poptarts"
I know I've witnessed many many times where I try to flank the emeny team and by the time I get into range to hit the rear my entire team has been decimated in an open field.
why? because they build these min/max "brawlers" that cant touch anything past 270m so instead of thinking bait and flanking they do a bayonet charge .....

[Aggressor666]

Vaan, on 06 June 2013 - 07:45 PM, said:

Oh YOU? Got **** by my founder hunchie while you trying to ''jump'' your way out on yesterday match? Learn to play dude..









I mean ''maneuver"...

you do know you just proved MY point right?? its NOT hard to kill a jumping mech...

[MonkeyCheese]

Lindonius, on 06 June 2013 - 10:03 PM, said:

Even going back to the original TT, people realised that it should be more difficult to fire while moving. Hence you got no penalties for being stationary, +1 for walking, +2 for running and +3 for jumping. I wouldn't be averse to the idea of adding a bit of shake for going over 50% throttle, a bit more for going over 90% and keeping what we have now for the jumpers.

If your primary concern is that it's unfair for jumpers to have shake while ground based mechs do not, I think the above idea would address that issue.

While I do agree, my primary concern is the visual stimuli of the crazy cockpit shake+crosshair shake + ground in motion all at once is making me and others feel sick, it has never been a problem even at 150kph while jumping for me or others clearly, so basically to make everyone happy we need crappy aim in the air and no shake that causes nausea.

But once thats out of the way we then go back to the ppc boating and heat penalty issue. To me it would be easier to just remove this new shake mechanic then fix the heat problem with ppcs then everyone is happy and highlanders and phracts are less of a threat, oh and SRM damage fix too.

If all that was done I personally think the game would be in a great place

[yashmack]

I am ok with trying to make these changes but the cockpit shake seems a bit excessive in my 3D
I am not a poptarter, I use the JJ mainly to get over obstacles and get on point more quickly

That being said I did test fire a few times while using the JJ
Once the poptarts realize that it all stops when you stop pressing the JJ key we will be back to the same old crap
On top of that the shake is pretty intense for the reticule and cockpit but the effect on the actual aim of the weapon is minimal
I can still consistantly take popshots without worrying about the moving reticule, its not hard to fire youre weapons in the right general direction and still hit your target
As far as I am concerned this did not address poptarting at all

I would suggest minimizing the visual effects and work more on how it affects the actual aim of the weapon and where they hit

all you have succeeded in doing is shaking the reticule while minimally affecting aim

Edited by yashmack, 06 June 2013 - 10:46 PM.

[Aggressor666]

Lindonius, on 06 June 2013 - 09:35 PM, said:

OK serious answer time.

The problem with the poptart is that with perfect timing you could fire off a shot just at the apex of your jump and then instantly drop back to safety without any chance of any return fire.

The ground based snipers (especially the slow poke stalkers and fatlases) have to wait a painstaking 3 or 4 seconds for the reverse gear to kick in before they can withdraw to safety. This 3 or 4 seconds is easily long enough to be subjected to return fire. With interest.

The poptart is extremely difficult to outmanuever whereas the ground based fatlases and stalkers are not.

they also trade off a fair amount of slots and tonnage for the ability to jump..... I mean I havent seen and 6 ER PPC jumpers

[Lindonius]

MonkeyCheese, on 06 June 2013 - 10:44 PM, said:

While I do agree, my primary concern is the visual stimuli of the crazy cockpit shake+crosshair shake + ground in motion all at once is making me and others feel sick, it has never been a problem even at 150kph while jumping for me or others clearly, so basically to make everyone happy we need crappy aim in the air and no shake that causes nausea.

But once thats out of the way we then go back to the ppc boating and heat penalty issue. To me it would be easier to just remove this new shake mechanic then fix the heat problem with ppcs then everyone is happy and highlanders and phracts are less of a threat, oh and SRM damage fix too.

If all that was done I personally think the game would be in a great place

Well I really like the shake and I hope it stays. Not just because of it's effect on balance but aesthetically as well. I actually it think it looks GREAT! It really helps add to the immersion and rams home the fact that this is a giant flying war machine SIMULATOR and you are piloting a multi-ton death machine flying through the air with a rocket strapped to your back.

Another thought just occured to me. How is this going to be compatable with 3PV? People who don't like that pesky shake in FPV could just switch to 3PV, as long as the reticule shake still exists for both views, everyone's a winner.

Edited by Lindonius, 06 June 2013 - 11:09 PM.

[Vaan]

Aggressor666, on 06 June 2013 - 10:41 PM, said:

you do know you just proved MY point right?? its NOT hard to kill a jumping mech...

Its not hard because your the only 1 who is jumping around and we already taken down others except you. Please dont say your point is right when this is not even relevant to the topic..

Edited by Vaan, 06 June 2013 - 11:31 PM.

[Seddrik]

I use max speed, and THRUSTERS in lights to maneuver in hit and runs, and even in a brawl I'm the light who flanks a guy focusing on another in order to burn his backside out. And I have been very successful at this aggressive style and had loads of fun. BUT now with the JJ shake the ability to maneuver and effectively shoot in a light mech has been hindered and now I just have to hide more - and be bored more. There is something visually excessive in the JJs shake effect and very unnecessary in light mechs all together.

Even my wife (who sometimes watches me play games) said of the jump jet shake: "That would give me a headache."

The problem was poptarts, not all JJ used in every situation on every mech. Poptarts were generally highlanders (assault mechs with multiple PPCs or ER PPCs and Gauss, high armor). I really didn't have a problem shooting them at distance, their pattern of a straight vertical jump was predictable. The problem was that they are among the strongest mechs in game and that there were often multiple poptarts focusing on the same people. Thats when in medium and heavy mechs you get 2-3 alphas... its over. It ruins 8 man matches, turns them into a waiting snipe game with entire teams being poptarts. IF the Devs could have reined in Assault (and to a degree heavy) poptarting without affecting light and medium mech JJing it would have been a better patch by far. I'm not afraid of a light or medium poptart. They are not as powerful in firepower generally nor armor.

But again, brawling on all mechs has been affected too much. JJs in brawls are now effectively hindered. The change is too sweeping affecting all mechs at all ranges, and this is excessive. (Not to mention visually unsettling to many people.)

Edited by Seddrik, 06 June 2013 - 11:37 PM.

[Corvus Antaka]

imho anything bigger than 35 tons needs an expanding reticule. mediums would be way to dangerous jumpsnipers with a steady reticule with the firepower they can mount, ie 2 erppc.

Light pilots, light mechs, I could see cutting the shake by 50% or even removing it, the damn things are so squirrely in the first place, however, in theory 8 spiders could play wack-a-mole and that wouldnt be very cool - though for a spider to jump straight up and down behind cover is pretty much a death wish.

imho if PGI goes from the reticule shake to an expanding reticule while maintaining the shaking of the mech itself I'd be perfectly happy, for myself the shake of the reticules is what makes me feel ill, an expanding reticule would acocmplish the same goal without the shake. the mech itself shaking im 50/50 on, kinda like the immersion, not sure its really an issue, but if it's bothering that many people, best to remove it or tone it down somewhat.

[merz]

a problem seen in this thread is that the people happily commenting on the nausea-inducing cockpit shake (which is often bugged and continues after landing, and even after death all the way into spectator mode..) are, by their own admission, people who do not use jump jets and, in some cases, the people who said that jump jets should be 'made useless or taken out of the game' .. ..one of the comments seen from such people is that there isn't enough shake.

even though the meta has swung the other way quite violently, the jump jets and firing from the air are still quite viable and not dramatically less so than they were before the patch, especially not if you are piloting something with an extremely high, punishing alpha. builds demanding continued accuracy from the air are no longer viable.

Edited by merz, 06 June 2013 - 11:57 PM.

[blinkin]

Avi8tor, on 06 June 2013 - 10:16 PM, said:

For your information, I can do more than just jump and shoot, I enjoy a range of mechs with different configs....But as you say, a poptarter crying about crybabies... ...Let me enlighten you, I have never cried about LRM Boat's, PPC Boats, Raven 3l's or splat cats....all of them exploits according to the same standard you have used here. No, I went and did each one of them and began using them against the enemy as they did to me. I got good at them and challenged myself to get better......Last I checked, it was the crybabies that got their way for crying....Now I'm calling Bull Crap on it because if that is the only way PGI seems to manage their game...then they have doomed it to end in failure.....If this was really about "balance" then their would be shake when walking or running as well!!!!!!!!!!I

Let's just check the history..... LRM's NERFED....ECM >...NERFED.....GUASE...NERFED..........THERMAL VIEW>>>NERFED....anything anyone has cried about gets nerfed......meanwhile....they cry about their AC 20 getting taken out to fast and they can't kill anyone...so...yea..lets just put it up to 18 damage because it is a brawler weapon and leave the gause at 3 or whatever its...come one people...wake up people.....they only care about the noob because they want numbers and the more numbers they have..the more MC they will sell.....it is not about the game anymore.....its about the bottom line....which would be huge if they would stop driving veteran players away in droves...

ever run around in a light mech? ever step on one of those tiny rocks around most of the levels and have it completely screw your aim? ever gone up and down all of the uneven hill sides, having to constantly adjust your aim because of the rise and fall of the terrain?

even with the patch, jump jetting is still a much smoother ride than most ground combat. i have been flying through the air putting ERPPC rounds into people with my jenner just like always.

they made the mech shake, they didn't lock all of your weapons up whenever you hit spacebar. they added a little realism. i think adding some cockpit sway while running would be good too, and i wouldn't whine endlessly because it made my gameplay hhaaaaarrrdd <-(emphasis on the whine).

all of you super 1337 veterans sound pretty pathetic to me if you can't overcome this minor cockpit jitter that i have easily been dealing with the past couple days.

Aggressor666, on 06 June 2013 - 10:33 PM, said:

what was it that made it OP exactly?
could it be the hordes of window lickers charging the open field at the "poptarts"
I know I've witnessed many many times where I try to flank the emeny team and by the time I get into range to hit the rear my entire team has been decimated in an open field.
why? because they build these min/max "brawlers" that cant touch anything past 270m so instead of thinking bait and flanking they do a bayonet charge .....

stupid players will still die just as quickly as they always have, but now sniping requires a little more effort than, spacebar + mouse1

Aggressor666, on 06 June 2013 - 10:46 PM, said:

they also trade off a fair amount of slots and tonnage for the ability to jump..... I mean I havent seen and 6 ER PPC jumpers

1 ton and one slot per jump jet for anything larger than a light mech according to the MWO wiki. a mech equipping 5 of them spends 5 tons and 5 slots.

lets look at some of this math.

jenner is as heavy as you can get for a light mech at 35 tons a single jump jet for a light mech weighs 0.5 tons. that would be 1/70th of the weight of a jenner.

now lets look at a highlander, 90 tons and uses jump jets that are one ton each. easy math there. each jump jet is 1/90th of the weight of the mech.

doesn't seem like much of a cost to me. even 5 of them on a heavy metal still weighs 2 tons less than a PPC and they can be crammed just about anywhere on mechs (i know, i have my 5 jump jets scattered all over my jenner). really not seeing the "fair amount of trade off".

[MonkeyCheese]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 06 June 2013 - 11:39 PM, said:

imho anything bigger than 35 tons needs an expanding reticule. mediums would be way to dangerous jumpsnipers with a steady reticule with the firepower they can mount, ie 2 erppc.

Light pilots, light mechs, I could see cutting the shake by 50% or even removing it, the damn things are so squirrely in the first place, however, in theory 8 spiders could play wack-a-mole and that wouldnt be very cool - though for a spider to jump straight up and down behind cover is pretty much a death wish.

imho if PGI goes from the reticule shake to an expanding reticule while maintaining the shaking of the mech itself I'd be perfectly happy, for myself the shake of the reticules is what makes me feel ill, an expanding reticule would acocmplish the same goal without the shake. the mech itself shaking im 50/50 on, kinda like the immersion, not sure its really an issue, but if it's bothering that many people, best to remove it or tone it down somewhat.

Amen to everything, furthermore if people want a simple example for an expanding reticule aka larger cone of fire check my post linked in my signature down below, the video I posted there shows it perfectly.

[Wintersdark]

ArchMage Sparrowhawk, on 06 June 2013 - 04:21 PM, said:

from your point of view, as someone who appears to dislike jumpjets, and hates poptarting with a passion. I just detect a lot of bias, is all.

Balance isn't hitting jump jet usage in general to discourage poptarts. Which shouldn't be discouraged, they should be defeated. If a lance wants to let everyone know where they are so they can be flanked, and killed at close range, they should be able to do it. Poptarting shouldnt be considered as menacing as some(ahem) portray it.

The issue here was that poptarting *was* overpowered. There weren't good tactics to defeat it. Oh, you certainly could win vs. poptarts, and you didn't HAVE to poptart, but the single best counter to a poptart is... to poptart.

Brawlers? You'd take more damage approaching them that they'd take poptarting, then once you got in close? Oh, look, those ERPPC's and Gauss Rifles pushing 35 point alphas can (and did) headshot you instantly up close. And even if not? A battered heavy/assault meeting a fresh heavy/assault at close range, with both sides having weapons that work perfectly well in close combat? Gee, I wonder how that will turn out.

LRM's? lol. Poptart pops, fires. LRM's launch, poptart is now back in cover, LRM'***** cover.

Lights? lol. It's trivially easy to hit lights at close range with ballistics/ppc's. 35-45 point alphas wreck lights fast. And the poptart has lots of chances to nail you, and only needs to hit once. The light will be pecking at him forever.

No... they weren't overpowered, but they were the most effective strategy overall, and the most effective counter was simply bringing poptarts too. Became a self-supporting problem.

DeaconW, on 06 June 2013 - 04:42 PM, said:

Funny how so many people are all starting with that phrase now...even though there are posters who are posting "there was nothing wrong with poptarting" with a straight face...

I know...that is why I am debating all the crying poptarter mob who are trying to eliminate this fix! So glad you understand...

I did poptart.

That's right, you all heard that right. I poptarted. A lot. Pretty much all the time.

Why? Because it worked. I'll adapt my strategies to whatever works at any given time, because once I get out in my stompy robot, I want to win. I didn't like the poptart meta, though, because *everyone* poptarted. Battles where just stupid, a whole whack of bouncing mechs, it was just ridiculous.

I still do poptart, too, in a couple of my mechs. Despite all the ridiculous poptart tears, poptarting still works fine; it's just harder now because you have much less time to snap off an accurate shot. But you certainly can do it - I've had nothing but wins with my GR/2ERPPC HM since the patch.

It was a good change. It's helped the meta enormously. Jump Jets are still extremely useful, offering better terrain transversal, scouting advantages, pop-sniping, easy escape routes from combats not going your way.. but it's not the most effective way to play anymore, and that's a very good thing.

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 06 June 2013 - 11:39 PM, said:

imho anything bigger than 35 tons needs an expanding reticule. mediums would be way to dangerous jumpsnipers with a steady reticule with the firepower they can mount, ie 2 erppc.

Light pilots, light mechs, I could see cutting the shake by 50% or even removing it, the damn things are so squirrely in the first place, however, in theory 8 spiders could play wack-a-mole and that wouldnt be very cool - though for a spider to jump straight up and down behind cover is pretty much a death wish.

imho if PGI goes from the reticule shake to an expanding reticule while maintaining the shaking of the mech itself I'd be perfectly happy, for myself the shake of the reticules is what makes me feel ill, an expanding reticule would acocmplish the same goal without the shake. the mech itself shaking im 50/50 on, kinda like the immersion, not sure its really an issue, but if it's bothering that many people, best to remove it or tone it down somewhat.

I'd be absolutely with this.

It may be the shaking reticule that causes headaches for me instead of the shaking of the mech, I honestly don't know. I'd assumed it was the cockpit shake, but I don't really know.

Ultimately, though, I'm 100% behind the inaccuracy/cone of fire when jumping. Hell, make it worse for all I care. Just fix my JJ's so using them isn't physically unpleasant.

[Soy]

I don't really care either way.

I'll just keep tarting noobs.

[B0oN]

DeaconW, on 06 June 2013 - 01:29 PM, said:

Ironic as it didn't take a "better" player to jumpsnipe...but I don't care about being "better" as much as I care that there is a balance that multiple playstyles can enjoy.

! This

[Rushin Roulette]

I have no problem with the cockpit shake (not prone to motion sickness.... so I cant comment on that from personal experience), no problem with the random reticule movement... but why in the world also add a completely random firing direction ontop of that? It kind of makes the reticule movement pointless if the weapons wont even fire where the crosshair is. That doesnt make much sence to me. The crosshair is just a HUD display element which does not have any mass to be affected by the jumpjet vectors.

Please make it either, so that the crosshair doesnt move away from center, but the weapons are shooting off center due to the unusual acceleration acting on the heavy weapons themselves causing the servo to over or undercorect the aiming... or make it, that the crosshairs follow where the weapons are actually pointing to.

Edited by Rushin Roulette, 07 June 2013 - 01:37 AM.

[MonkeyCheese]

Rushin Roulette, on 07 June 2013 - 01:36 AM, said:

I have no problem with the cockpit shake (not prone to motion sickness.... so I cant comment on that from personal experience), no problem with the random reticule movement... but why in the world also add a completely random firing direction ontop of that? It kind of makes the reticule movement pointless if the weapons wont even fire where the crosshair is. That doesnt make much sence to me. The crosshair is just a HUD display element which does not have any mass to be affected by the jumpjet vectors.

Please make it either, so that the crosshair doesnt move away from center, but the weapons are shooting off center due to the unusual acceleration acting on the heavy weapons themselves causing the servo to over or undercorect the aiming... or make it, that the crosshairs follow where the weapons are actually pointing to.

Exactly the kind of thing I have been saying all along, shaking needs to stop and only the bad aim in the air needs to stay.

As you said the crosshair is a hud element, and I wanst aware that some kind of virus had gotten into our hud systems and made them bounce off the walls.

[Rushin Roulette]

Actually. Id like to note... I dont have a problem with the shaking. A rocket thrust which is strong enough to launch 95 Tons of metal will cause a lot of distortion and unregular thrust which would easily cause shaking. The weapons (Especially the arm mounted weapons) will be unaligned while the servos are trying to compensate for the thrust vectors.

What doesnt make sence is the HUD display also being affected in a completely different direction. It feels like you are shooting a rifle while running (crosshairs will be understandably all over the place), but the bullets are comming out of the back of the stock, no matter where the barrel was aiming at the moment you pulled the trigger.

EDIT: PGI are working on the new reticule shake for U.I. 2.0... here is a sneak peak of it.

Spoiler

Edited by Rushin Roulette, 07 June 2013 - 04:04 AM.

[chewie]

Who here has ever been in/on a car/plane/train/boat/motorbike.

What happens when the large/highpowered engines (see boat/plane) work harder to make the medium of transport go faster/higher?

The movement of the engines is translated by the surrounding structure into vibration throughout the body of the vehicle.

Even with shock mounting, the vibration is noticeable. Enough so that close proximity to the source produces noticeable shake.

Heck a when a Paxman Diesel is running up and reaches peak rotation (used on ships for electricity generation) you can feel it through the structure and the deck plates. They are sitting on shock mounts. But you still feel it.

Now JJ would be mounted directly with no shock mounting to reduce the affects of several thousand foot pounds of thrust when you *ignite the jets*. Heck if you tried to shock mount them, you'd have them rip off after a couple of uses (current technology for shock mounts only allow so much movement before they either fail and break or they stop doing what they are meant to).

Now you have several thousand foot pounds of thrust trying to launch you into the air, your gonna have a lot of shake transmitted up through the mech, making the cockpit shake, making the weapons shake within their housings and mountings.

The net effect is YOU shake as well with the cockpit, and so do the weapons regardless of what the reticule is showing.

Now pgi have introduced the reticule shake to show what the weapons are doing, because if they hadn't, the amount of crying would be a million fold for folks who's reticule is hard on a target only for the shot to go miles wide for no obvious reason when using JJ if only the cockpit shook.

PGI have done a top job by introducing shake to the cockpit and the reticule WHEN THE JUMPJETS ARE BEING FIRED.

Its fine.

Its adding a key realism to this game which is having the added bonus of making it more difficult for all those airwarriors who have had it so easy for so long.



Now if they could make it so when your peaking round an obstacle, with your reticule half on the target and half on the obstacle, that the weapon didnt target the obstacle or go diagonally across your front, that would be nice.

I feel for those who might be now getting motion sick, but hey, it can't be that bad because there's more movement when watching a 150kph mech view flicking from left to right, sky to ground and all over the show (for both the pilot and the person riding with them whos already had his mech shot out from under him) to induce a feeling of nausea and hedaache than from just getting a little screen shake when you use your jets for 10 secs before landing and waiting for another 3-5 before using them again.

And I have yet to see one complaint about the effect of watching a mech flash around causing them to feel rough. Or the flashing of explosions and up close firing of weapons (see strobe effects) which are more likely to induce headaches and eye strain than a little shaking of your view.


As some have said before, JJ are there to help you get around, eg jump up a ridge that someone in a non jumper will have to run around to get to a new position. Its not there to give you an advantage over someone else, which is how they are being used by the poptarts.


Perhaps the effects do need to be adjusted once enough data has been given on how many JJ capable mechs are using them now, and some attention given to concerns about possible side effects, but there is no reason for them to be removed when they are a perfectly natural scientific reaction applied within the game.


My advice, if the JJ shake affects you that much, reduce the amount you use them or change how you use them in game.

It seems to work for people and weapons based on how *awesome* they are.

Or is that too much common sense?

[MonkeyCheese]

chewie, on 07 June 2013 - 04:05 AM, said:

Who here has ever been in/on a car/plane/train/boat/motorbike.

What happens when the large/highpowered engines (see boat/plane) work harder to make the medium of transport go faster/higher?

The movement of the engines is translated by the surrounding structure into vibration throughout the body of the vehicle.

I feel for those who might be now getting motion sick, but hey, it can't be that bad because there's more movement when watching a 150kph mech view flicking from left to right, sky to ground and all over the show (for both the pilot and the person riding with them whos already had his mech shot out from under him) to induce a feeling of nausea and hedaache than from just getting a little screen shake when you use your jets for 10 secs before landing and waiting for another 3-5 before using them again.

My advice, if the JJ shake affects you that much, reduce the amount you use them or change how you use them in game.

Oh look another knowitall who clearly isnt reading anything or understanding exactly how this VERY specific type of stimuli is affecting people (even if they have been playing 150kph jumpjetting lights since closed beta) is telling us to simply "change the way we use jumpjets in game"....

I Shall type it out again since people dont like to read older pages.

I have been driving max speed jumpjetting light mechs since I got into closed beta, currently my best performing and favorite mech to drive is my spider5d it uses 2ml 1erll, it runs at 145kph with jumpjets and I drive very twitcy and franticly to avoid getting hit and I spend as much time in the air as I do on the ground to cover terrain, get behind people, get out of their field of view/fire, to change directions quickly.

I have never EVER had any kind of nausea while driving like this, and have never had a problem with any other kind of video game. I have been playing video games since I was a little tiny kid on my brothers atari 2600, im 24 now.

Furthermore I have perfect vision so no need for glasses, I have ZERO history of any kind of motion sickness, I am perfectly fine driving my car or being in moving vehicles, I dont get seasick, and i am perfectly fine repeatedly riding rollercoasers.

But with saying all that, this new kind of stimuli with a the crosshairs shaking one way, along with the cockpit shaking in its own way combined with the normal everyday activities of my spider battlemech really leaves me felling very nauseated, and it has happened every time I have tried to take my spider out for a match ever since the very first match I played since the new patch at like 9-10am ish my time so obviously my eyes were not under any kind of strain at all with my first post patch match.

Simply scaling a building or a small rock is affecting people. So how can we change the way we use jumpjets?
I refuse to abandon my spider.



I will say it again, I am fine with implementing crappy aim aka widening the cone of fire while flying aka nerfing poptart accuracy but the cockpit shake and crosshair shaking needs to go away completely asap, and people need to understand this isnt your usual kind of motion sickness.

This bandaid fix hasn't solved the initial problem of high heat high alpha builds that have no heat penalties that brought around this poptart problem, and the more skilled poptarts will just take their shots during the fall after they have deactivated their jumpjets, also srms need their original damage capabilities back to help with the high heat/damage pinpoint meta.

Edited by MonkeyCheese, 07 June 2013 - 04:55 AM.