1217 replies to this topic

[MonkeyCheese]

Vaan, on 06 June 2013 - 07:34 PM, said:

There's nothing wrong for implementing JJ shakes on light because pop-tarting is all on every mechs that have JJ regardless whether it's a light or medium mech. But since there are some ppl who complain getting motion sickness in this little shakes, let just hope that PGI can reduce the shakes a bit..

So you understand our complaints i see, but really I must ask are poptarting lights or medium mechs really such a threat?

Their armor and firepower is so small when compared to any heavy and assault mechs that look at them flying across the sky who could eassily take good shots and rip arms and legs off, and any non poptarting could easily rush the light/meduim up and down poptarts.

I dont ever recall any serious complaints or debates about medium or light poptarts and do you know why? Its because the real problem people have with is the cataphracts and highlanders who can carry large amounts of instantly damaging, short duration, long range and hot weaponry who poptart with this hot weaponry without any negative side effects from the heat. So basically aside from the added movement and tactics of the jumpjets this is the exact same problem as the lrm boats and the stalker boat builds.

So again I will ask
Why do other mechs and other builds that can fly have to suffer this "fix" when the real problem in the game of heat and boating is still there for the non jumping poptarts and their grounded brothers?

[DeaconW]

Nebelfeuer, on 06 June 2013 - 05:29 PM, said:

JJ changes did not fix poptarting it destroyed all vilable uses for JJ and with poptarts being hurt the least

The state of the game right now is evidence that you are simply wrong.

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Everyone welcoming the current JJ situation is obviously fond of forcing other players to their playstyle and even willing to accept other players physical discomfort for it.

overgeneralize much?

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Good luck and best wishes. Had some fun for a while.

You too...although you should be fine in a light after the hotfix.

[Nexus Omega]

I love pop tarts they taste yummy!

I think the changes are good so far, and they don't make me sick,

Keep up the good work!

Please fix missile damage next!

[Vaan]

MonkeyCheese, on 06 June 2013 - 07:48 PM, said:

So you understand our complaints i see, but really I must ask are poptarting lights or medium mechs really such a threat?

Their armor and firepower is so small when compared to any heavy and assault mechs that look at them flying across the sky who could eassily take good shots and rip arms and legs off, and any non poptarting could easily rush the light/meduim up and down poptarts.

I dont ever recall any serious complaints or debates about medium or light poptarts and do you know why? Its because the real problem people have with is the cataphracts and highlanders who can carry large amounts of instantly damaging, short duration, long range and hot weaponry who poptart with this hot weaponry without any negative side effects from the heat. So basically aside from the added movement and tactics of the jumpjets this is the exact same problem as the lrm boats and the stalker boat builds.

So again I will ask
Why do other mechs and other builds that can fly have to suffer this "fix" when the real problem in the game of heat and boating is still there for the non jumping poptarts and their grounded brothers?

Yeah.. I can understand your point of view but by not implementing JJ shakes on light mechs might result in another unfavorable viable issue that is making all poptarters players switching to light mechs instead.. And we will lost maybe a large amount of scouts during a pugging match.. That's why i suggest PGI to reduce the shakes on light mechs or use another alternative solutions to stop pop-tarting.


PS: I too agree with you there is other real problem, BOATING but i believe PGI will give us a solution soon!!

Edited by Vaan, 06 June 2013 - 08:04 PM.

[MonkeyCheese]

So thanks to 1 cataphract and 4 highlanders and their high heat high damage alphas we now have nerfs for 3 spiders, 3 jenners, one raven, 2 blackjacks, 2 trebs, and 3 catapults, and the upcoming victor and quickdraw.

So like 20ish mechs get their playstyles and options nerfed thanks to 3.

Edited by MonkeyCheese, 06 June 2013 - 08:04 PM.

[DeaconW]

MonkeyCheese, on 06 June 2013 - 07:48 PM, said:

So you understand our complaints i see, but really I must ask are poptarting lights or medium mechs really such a threat?

For the record, I have said that this effect should be minimal on meds and lights. Anything that makes mediums more relevant is good for the game IMO. They should be the most prevalent mech on the battlefield (and probably would be if we had a proper repair and rearm game mechanic back).

[Gorillarider83]

Well, I like the shake as it adds an element of realism to the game, one could not expect to "rocket" 80, 40, or even 30 tons of weight into the air without experiencing some kind of vibration, distortion, or off center sighting. The screen shake is negotiable, at best, if someone can't handle watching the screen shake and learn to deal with it, like the flashing lights of lasers, or when a daka-daka blasts one continously and causes screen shake, same thing when getting hit with missiles maybe go find a softer game to cuddle up to. Learn to deal with it like everyone else, quit your whining, and get out there kill some enemy mechs, ooh-rah.

Well, I like the shake as it adds an element of realism to the game, one could not expect to "rocket" 80, 40, or even 30 tons of weight into the air without experiencing some kind of vibration, distortion, or off center sighting. The screen shake is negotiable, at best, if someone can't handle watching the screen shake and learn to deal with it, like the flashing lights of lasers, or when a daka-daka blasts one continously and causes screen shake, same thing when getting hit with missiles maybe go find a softer game to cuddle up to. Learn to deal with it like everyone else, quit your whining, and get out there kill some enemy mechs, ooh-rah.

[blinkin]

Edustaja, on 06 June 2013 - 05:46 PM, said:

Some of the basic, but fun mechs have suffered a lot because of this. The Catapults f.ex. are not very fun anymore. You can't use jumpjets to tag anyone as the reticule shake is so bad, there's also no compensating for it as it's random. This "fix" just removed one style of play entirely without really affecting high alpha builds. Instead of jumping highlanders you now have walking ones with stalkers and RS atlases to boot. No use bringing anything lighter than an assault mech anyways.

the only issue i have with my catapults is the fact that most of the missile hit just slightly harder than a damp towel. jump jet shake hasn't really hurt my ability to actually hit with my SRM and my jenners run great.

Burpitup, on 06 June 2013 - 06:18 PM, said:

I think the shaking is a bit excessive. It would be nice to have it dialed down a notch. Mostly because of how bad it has nerfed the Light mechs. for the light mechs they can't turn and shoot in the air very well at all anymore. For me in my Med mech it has just changed the way i do it a little bit. It is a little harder but with a little practice it is still plenty do able.

it hasn't hurt my jenner any. i have still been doing all of the aerial ballet AND hitting just fine with my weapons.

csmonkey, on 06 June 2013 - 06:55 PM, said:

Lot's of discussion on pop-tarting here. Was that the ONLY reason this was done? If so then y'all used a shotgun approach to a narrow problem on the game.

I mentioned earlier that I'm not a pop-tart sniper, but:

Have I been killed by them? Yes.

Have I been killed by them excessively? No.

Why? Terrain, Maneuverability, and Speed (insert Terrain again if you are slow).

I was a Scout in the Army. There was this saying: What can be seen can be hit. What can be hit can be destroyed.

Anyone that doesn't use terrain and just stands there to be sniped to death kinda deserves it. Just like anyone that just stands there when they KNOW the missles are coming in.......kinda deserves it.

I've been chewed up a heck of a lot more by missle barrages when the OPFOR has a spotter, than I have by snipers.

i wanted this before the first poptarts really showed up in the game. i like the little touch of realism this adds. the poptarts are the ones acting like this little bit of screen shake renders their mech entirely useless.

MonkeyCheese, on 06 June 2013 - 08:00 PM, said:

So thanks to 1 cataphract and 4 highlanders and their high heat high damage alphas we now have nerfs for 3 spiders, 3 jenners, one raven, 2 blackjacks, 2 trebs, and 3 catapults, and the upcoming victor and quickdraw.

So like 20ish mechs get their playstyles and options nerfed thanks to 3.

i pilot jenners and (before when the missiles weren't crap) catapults, i don't feel like i got nerfed. most of my shots in my jenners or catapults happen within 100m so a little shake is incredibly unlikely to make me miss. i may not be as pin point precise, but i always thought that part of the game was odd anyway.

DeaconW, on 06 June 2013 - 08:00 PM, said:

For the record, I have said that this effect should be minimal on meds and lights. Anything that makes mediums more relevant is good for the game IMO. They should be the most prevalent mech on the battlefield (and probably would be if we had a proper repair and rearm game mechanic back).

i don't think this effect hurts most of the smaller mechs much anyway, but the developers have already said it is supposed to scale with size. it makes sense so i won't complain, but i don't believe it is necessary.

[Mystere]

Vaan, on 06 June 2013 - 07:34 PM, said:

But since there are some ppl who complain getting motion sickness in this little shakes, let just hope that PGI can reduce the shakes a bit..

Yes, fix the shakes. Getting a nasty headache and almost puking while playing a darned video game is no fun at all (to put it mildly). I am parking my Spider until this is dealt with.

Edited by Mystere, 06 June 2013 - 08:54 PM.

[Lindonius]

MonkeyCheese, on 06 June 2013 - 07:48 PM, said:

So again I will ask
Why do other mechs and other builds that can fly have to suffer this "fix" when the real problem in the game of heat and boating is still there for the non jumping poptarts and their grounded brothers?

Because this.........



Is much more annoying....

Than this.......

[MonkeyCheese]

Lindonius, on 06 June 2013 - 08:59 PM, said:

Because this.........



Is much more annoying....

Than this.......

How so? Do you have problems aiming at the more visible one?

Your troll reply fails to impress me.

[Lindonius]

MonkeyCheese, on 06 June 2013 - 09:10 PM, said:

How so? Do you have problems aiming at the more visible one?

Your troll reply fails to impress me.

OK serious answer time.

The problem with the poptart is that with perfect timing you could fire off a shot just at the apex of your jump and then instantly drop back to safety without any chance of any return fire.

The ground based snipers (especially the slow poke stalkers and fatlases) have to wait a painstaking 3 or 4 seconds for the reverse gear to kick in before they can withdraw to safety. This 3 or 4 seconds is easily long enough to be subjected to return fire. With interest.

The poptart is extremely difficult to outmanuever whereas the ground based fatlases and stalkers are not.

[Avi8tor]

Kyocera, on 05 June 2013 - 11:03 PM, said:

I really ain't one of these elite "the whole internet MUST bow to me" gamers but since the latest patch, I have had the greatest games ever.

Why?

Well, for a start LOLrms are almost balanced at last, side for perhaps a slight drop on their speed. Then, when it comes to maps where JJ's have any sort of use, THEY ONLY BECOME USED WHEN IT IS NECESSARY FOR A MOBILITY ADVANTAGE.

Tell me, When should JJ's be used eh? Tell me, how should a movement advantage ever be used as part of a firing advantage, eh?

I tell you what shitcakes. I have had the best ******* time in at least 3-4 months since this last patch. I AM ******* LOVING THIS GAME RIGHT NOW BECAUSE IT IS FULL OF PLAYERS AND NOT EXPLOITERS, REGARDLESS OF IF I WIN OR LOSE.

In other words, you now have the game you want it but the heck with the way anyone else wants it. Now you can stand in the open, rush like a noob and not die so fast.....

Since when did this game become a game about brawling...and since when has a mech been designed for that JJ's are for moving only.....Sigh...I rest my case.....the powers to be seem to cater to the noobs and the heck with the those who are veteran mechwarrior players....I guess it is all about money now...but they wont be getting any more of mine so long as this is in place...I used to buy premium time simply to support them...but since they only wanna screw me over now....the heck with them...

Edited by Avi8tor, 06 June 2013 - 09:43 PM.

[ArchMage Sparrowhawk]

DeaconW, on 06 June 2013 - 07:45 PM, said:

No thanX. I prefer blue monkey bottoms, sorry.



OK, so when the shake thing is minimized but the other stuff remains your should be all good.



And this is where we disagree because I care about the *whole* game, not just my little part.



Dude,. read the thread...this has been explained ad nauseum and is supported by a LOT of people.

The point is, (and I take a long view of the game, believe me...), that you support game changing experimental hotfixes to resolve the symptom of meta-game dysfunction, even when that new change introduces even more dysfunction, while only moderately addressing the original issue. You're cheering it on, writing letters of support, just because in the short term it means fewer poptarts. No more newbie poptarters. But they would have moved on to something else anyway. But now Jump Jet attack tactics for mechs that actually NEED jumpjets are changed. Jumpjets never recovered from the original major nerf. The way Jump Jets work now is vastly different from last year. I have no reason to expect things to return to normal or even to be good once PGI "lessens" the effect of the JJ Shake on smaller mechs.

And just because a lot of people support the removal of poptarting, doesn't make them any more correct.

pucker up, charlie, because this sort of thing isn't usually left up to personal preferences.

Edited by ArchMage Sparrowhawk, 06 June 2013 - 09:54 PM.

[MonkeyCheese]

Lindonius, on 06 June 2013 - 09:35 PM, said:

OK serious answer time.

The problem with the poptart is that with perfect timing you could fire off a shot just at the apex of your jump and then instantly drop back to safety without any chance of any return fire.

The ground based snipers (especially the slow poke stalkers and fatlases) have to wait a painstaking 3 or 4 seconds for the reverse gear to kick in before they can withdraw to safety. This 3 or 4 seconds is easily long enough to be subjected to return fire. With interest.

The poptart is extremely difficult to outmanuever whereas the ground based fatlases and stalkers are not.

So then I hope we can all agree on the simple fact that bad aim is preferred for at least heavys and assaults with high alpha weapons, lights and mediums are not a threat.

But the screenshake is not needed, just the crappy aim in the air part

Edited by MonkeyCheese, 06 June 2013 - 10:00 PM.

[DeaconW]

Lindonius, on 06 June 2013 - 09:35 PM, said:

OK serious answer time.

The problem with the poptart is that with perfect timing you could fire off a shot just at the apex of your jump and then instantly drop back to safety without any chance of any return fire.

The ground based snipers (especially the slow poke stalkers and fatlases) have to wait a painstaking 3 or 4 seconds for the reverse gear to kick in before they can withdraw to safety. This 3 or 4 seconds is easily long enough to be subjected to return fire. With interest.

The poptart is extremely difficult to outmanuever whereas the ground based fatlases and stalkers are not.

Stop making sense...according to some here they are "the same"...

[DeaconW]

ArchMage Sparrowhawk, on 06 June 2013 - 09:50 PM, said:

pucker up, charlie,

My names not "Charlie"...are you off your meds again?

I simply disagree with your assessment. We'll have to see after the hotfix.

[Lindonius]

MonkeyCheese, on 06 June 2013 - 09:51 PM, said:

So then I hope we can all agree on the simple fact that bad aim is preferred for at least heavys and assaults with high alpha weapons, lights and mediums are not a threat.

But the screenshake is not needed, just the crappy aim in the air part

Even going back to the original TT, people realised that it should be more difficult to fire while moving. Hence you got no penalties for being stationary, +1 for walking, +2 for running and +3 for jumping. I wouldn't be averse to the idea of adding a bit of shake for going over 50% throttle, a bit more for going over 90% and keeping what we have now for the jumpers.

If your primary concern is that it's unfair for jumpers to have shake while ground based mechs do not, I think the above idea would address that issue.

Edited by Lindonius, 06 June 2013 - 10:05 PM.

[MoonUnitBeta]

I was definitely hoping for a more "waving" or "wandering" effect where it swerves up and then jerks down and right and jerks hard left then up and etc... kind of like sniper scopes in most FPS, but to a larger degree. The shake is so intense right now it hardly makes you feel like you're even in a mech and more like you're in an etch-a-sketch, and keep the random direction of a weapon can go, but a little less intense.

I dunno. Would have done it differently, but w/e. Hopefully it's points that they agree on, or can imagine which one would be better (aesthetically and skill testing wise)

[Avi8tor]

DeaconW, on 06 June 2013 - 05:34 AM, said:

^^poptart cries a river while calling others "Crybabies". Priceless.

I am sure this will come as a total shock to you but...you got "good" at something that was a broken game mechanic that never should have been in the game and has now been appropriately removed. Now bring your "skill"...



I still see a good number of mechs jumpjetting and shooting in game. Your argument is invalid.

For your information, I can do more than just jump and shoot, I enjoy a range of mechs with different configs....But as you say, a poptarter crying about crybabies... ...Let me enlighten you, I have never cried about LRM Boat's, PPC Boats, Raven 3l's or splat cats....all of them exploits according to the same standard you have used here. No, I went and did each one of them and began using them against the enemy as they did to me. I got good at them and challenged myself to get better......Last I checked, it was the crybabies that got their way for crying....Now I'm calling Bull Crap on it because if that is the only way PGI seems to manage their game...then they have doomed it to end in failure.....If this was really about "balance" then their would be shake when walking or running as well!!!!!!!!!!I

Let's just check the history..... LRM's NERFED....ECM >...NERFED.....GUASE...NERFED..........THERMAL VIEW>>>NERFED....anything anyone has cried about gets nerfed......meanwhile....they cry about their AC 20 getting taken out to fast and they can't kill anyone...so...yea..lets just put it up to 18 damage because it is a brawler weapon and leave the gause at 3 or whatever its...come one people...wake up people.....they only care about the noob because they want numbers and the more numbers they have..the more MC they will sell.....it is not about the game anymore.....its about the bottom line....which would be huge if they would stop driving veteran players away in droves...