61 replies to this topic

[Iron Savior]

If I'm a heavy or assault slugging it out with another big guy, and you're sitting there 'harassing' him by shooting him in the back, I appreciate it. But you arne't doing *anything* if you don't pierce his armor. So if you can see that your DPS isnt enough to make a difference before he or I die, please shoot him somewhere else, like the legs or front.

Edited by Iron Savior, 18 May 2013 - 01:50 PM.

[Pariah Devalis]

To the heavy or assault slugging it out:

We appreciate that you deal a tremendous amount of damage and can absorb so much as well, however we also appreciate your target can mince us in a single concentrated salvo. We much rather do internal damage from behind then line up an easy shot for the target, especially since you brawlers are usually facehumping the target anyways.

[Iron Savior]

If I'm huggin his face then you obviously don't have anything to worry about, as I'm shooting him and he's shooting me. I'm the easy target, I'm big, angry, and 100m away. You're small and fast and your weapons are probably crap.

Come be slightly more of a man and hide behind me so you can shoot his front, because again you aint getting any of those internals without his armor being stripped. And in my experience, in the time it takes me to kill another heavy or assault, the average light isn't going to pierce rear armor. As my understanding on the matter is, in order to damage internals and criticals, you need to strip the armor first. So you aren't actually damaging internals if you're shooting an atlas in his 100% HP rear torso. You're wasting your time making your damage and accuracy stats look better while not contributing.

Again if I'm wrong on this please correct me, but everything I've seen leads me to believe that criticals don't happen until all armor is missing. So, if you really wanna chew up some internals, you'd be better off hiding behind me, shooting the guy in his torso with me. He's probably gonna pay attention to the guy with the ac20.

This is also a better strat if I'm correct on that assumption because, if he decides to shoot the light mech instead fo the half dead heavy/assault infront of him, good. He's gonna miss half the time, a scout mech is usually at 95% or dead, but an assault on its last legs could still have a lot of firepower worth saving. A stalker missing it's RT is probably still going to have better weapons than a 100% jenner, for instance. Both would probably have comparable amounts of 'effective HP' left, but one is going to have twice the tonnage in guns.



Edit: I've confirmed what I said is true. Crits and internal damage, like I said, doesn't happen until all armor is stripped.

So again if you aren't piercing that ***, you are wasting my time, your time, and your team's time. Unless you wanna argue about knockback weapons, but you would still be doing more good helping me destroy frontal armor.

Basically, if the heavy dies before RT armor is pierced, that means the light did ZERO internal damage and ZERO crits. On the flipside, the heavy doing all the hard work is getting ALL the internal damage and ALL the crits in that fight.

Edited by Iron Savior, 19 May 2013 - 12:27 AM.

[stjobe]

Dear fattie,

Sorry for "stealing your kill" so often, it wasn't my intention to hurt your precious feelings. It's just that you're so big and stupid, and all you seem to be able to do is lumber up to some other fattie and start b***h-slapping each other. Funny thing is that when you do, both of you seem totally oblivious to what's happening around you and I can easily park my fast and agile shiny metal *** behind your target and core them from behind. Often well before you can breach their armour from the front.

Yes, I know you don't think a speedy little 'mech can mount much weaponry, but here's a revelation for you: Fatties have more armour on their front than on their back.

Sincerely,
/a light pilot

[Iron Savior]

When did I complain about kill stealing? Did you read anything I said?

Okay, here's what I'm saying. I'm the guy tanking and dealing damage, okay? If I'm 100m from the guy, and you're 300m, he'll shoot me, not you. That's all there is to it. I want you to help me kill the guy.

If you don't damage his internals, you didn't help in the fight if all you did was shoot his butt. That's all there is to it. If you ks me, good, that means you actually damaged his internals!

Which you won't be doing if you stay behind him and can't get through his rear armor. I can get through the front armor just fine. That's the point.

I'll get rid of the armor! I'll do it for you! That's fine! You can help though, by shooting his front armor with me, and then you'll actually damage his internals. Not only that, but I'm sure he's probably gonna be shooting me over you, since I'll probably be closer (otherwise this scenario and argument is pointless), so you can just hang back a bit if you want. You don't even gotta stand right in front of him, you can be a bit to the side, just so you can hit his front.

This applies to bigger mechs too, it's just that they can get through the RT armor usually (Unless its like a trial dragon or something), so they'll actually help get the kill damage wise. They'll get to the internals. That's the key, and the point.

[Nebelfeuer]

a) a lot of mechs front center/side torso can be hit from behind - check the hitboxes in trainig ground.
b.) a lot of lights have more firepower then you seem to think and the rearamors is stripped away often in a single alpha
c) shots that miss you will hit a lights quite often if he try to fire from behind you
d) mobility and rate of fire of a light is hindered if he tries to compensate your and your enemys movement trying to fire from somewhere behind you making him a vunerable and tempting target or more useless then he could ever be behind your enemy where he is not restricted by your movements and may at the same time draw aggro from your opponents friends( being closer to them but mind: much harder to hit) that will try to shoot him instead of you.

Edited by Nebelfeuer, 19 May 2013 - 01:48 AM.

[Dalziel Hasek Davion]

I pilot assaults and lights and what Iron Savior said initially is mostly correct. *If* you mount small weapons (low alpha, low DPS), it makes more sense to aim for parts of the enemy that a friendly assault is aiming for - and has stripped armour from - even if that is the front of the 'Mech.

I might disagree on aiming for the legs, rather than the rear. My Stalker has 72 armour on the legs and carries no ammo there. Even with an alpha of 20 (moderately-armed light), my light will not punch it quick enough - and will not destroy it. However, rear side torso armour is often scaled compared to head armour, few assault 'Mechs carry much more than 18 armour in the side torso rear - and my 'puny' 20 damage alpha can often penetrate in one hit, if I'm good and he's occupied.

I am nervous of ducking in and out of brawling assaults given the papier-mache that covers my 'Mech. Assaults do, often, aim for the Light 'Mech because killing an 'ankle biter' in one alpha is hugely rewarding, and can remove a lots of guns and aggravation from a brawl quicker than taking an assaults torso armour away and hoping for a crit. Your assertion that people shoot the assault and not the light is not backed up by my experience - and that gives me pause when I'm piloting a light. As does the risk of shooting the friendly assault in the rear - and what that pilot might do if he considers this 'not an accident'.

So - I think both sides of the arguments have merit and your original point - which was "think about whether shooting them in the front would be more effective use of your time" is a good one. All that is required from light pilots is being more aware and smarter than a brawling assault pilot needs to be.

[Cubivorre]

This is not a guide nor a strategy.

[Zerberus]

I agree with the OP in basic principle, BUT some self reflection and clarification if why HIS actions directly contradict his statements is necessary----

Iron Savior, on 18 May 2013 - 11:58 PM, said:

If I'm huggin his face then you obviously don't have anything to worry about, as I'm shooting him and he's shooting me. I'm the easy target, I'm big, angry, and 100m away. You're small and fast and your weapons are probably crap.

Come be slightly more of a man and hide behind me so you can shoot his front, because again you aint getting any of those internals without his armor being stripped. And in my experience, in the time it takes me to kill another heavy or assault, the average light isn't going to pierce rear armor. As my understanding on the matter is, in order to damage internals and criticals, you need to strip the armor first. So you aren't actually damaging internals if you're shooting an atlas in his 100% HP rear torso. You're wasting your time making your damage and accuracy stats look better while not contributing.

And if people do exactly as you ask, your next thread will be complaining about your own team shooting YOU in the back constantly.

The same thing that keeps him from being able to shoot us is the same thing that keeps us from shooting him in the front: YOUR FAT *** that has closed to an asininely short range, blocking ALL angles outgoing AND incoming... LOS works both ways. Even an LRM or Streak Volley will more likely damage you than him in this situation, and those are Homing Missiles.

But if you stay 150-200 yards away, then we actually have a chance to hit something other than you, and all of your weapons (onless you`re boating flamers or MGs) are still well within their effective ranges.

If you want me to take the shot anyway, fine... but don't complain about getting cored from behind by your own team next week.

Edited by Zerberus, 19 May 2013 - 02:38 AM.

[jk781]

@OP are you serious?

Just askin'

[MonkeyCheese]

A few alphas from my 19 damage spider or any other are more than plenty to obliterate the rear ct or rear st armor of a completely distracted stalker, atlas, awesome or highlander or anything smaller.

If I see any mech that is slowly moving or standing still who is completely focused on shooting my team mates and I'm within say 500m I will close in and take that mechs armor and possibly the mech out.

[Hauser]

Bah. This discussion is stupid.

Iron Savior is making a valid comment that light pilots focusing on a different side of his target generally won't make it go down faster. There are situations in which this can happen but they are circumstantial enough that they're the exception rather then the rule.

In reply people argue that assaults are often hugging their targets now allowing anyone to get a shot in. This is also a valid comment that definitely needs its own thread but it is not a counter argument.

Edited by Hauser, 19 May 2013 - 02:47 AM.

[strygalldwir]

Iron savior I get it. You want me to shoot through you. Or perhaps you should hit where I am aiming. Sounds about as reasonable as your post.

[mailin]

I'm Mailin, and I'm a light pilot, and I'm NOT doing what the OP suggested. Instead, I WILL go behind the enemy and begin firing on whichever side rear torso is more damaged. This will not only take out that torso and arm faster than a brawler can, (generally two alhpas) it may also kill him if he mounts an XL engine. Additionally, when you are face hugging your enemy and firing all of your weapons, you are damaging him all over, whereas I can surgically strike and remove whatever I choose to. If you doubt me, hit the training grounds and see for yourself.

[stjobe]

Iron Savior, on 19 May 2013 - 01:06 AM, said:

When did I complain about kill stealing? Did you read anything I said?

Yes. Every single word.

Iron Savior, on 19 May 2013 - 01:06 AM, said:

Okay, here's what I'm saying. I'm the guy tanking and dealing damage, okay?

You're "tanking" and dealing damage? What am I, decoration?

Iron Savior, on 19 May 2013 - 01:06 AM, said:

If I'm 100m from the guy, and you're 300m, he'll shoot me, not you.

That's not my experience with several thousand drops in lights. We die easily if we get hit, so the enemy will try to hit us, and we try to not get hit. Spending too much time on the business side of a heavy or assault is not conducive to survival for a light.

Iron Savior, on 19 May 2013 - 01:06 AM, said:

I want you to help me kill the guy.

I will. Chances are he'll try to maneuver to get me off his back, giving you a free shot - and if he doesn't I get a free shot. Win-win for both of us.

Iron Savior, on 19 May 2013 - 01:06 AM, said:

If you don't damage his internals, you didn't help in the fight if all you did was shoot his butt. That's all there is to it.

No, that's a very simplistic view, and it doesn't hold up under scrutiny. If I distract someone by shooting him in the back so you can get a kill-shot in, I'd say I helped. But I know bus drivers don't really see that, they just see that their awesome skill and firepower won the day.

Iron Savior, on 19 May 2013 - 01:06 AM, said:

Which you won't be doing if you stay behind him and can't get through his rear armor. I can get through the front armor just fine. That's the point.

And I can get through the rear armour just fine. That's one of the points you're missing (another being that distracting the enemy is worthwhile).

Iron Savior, on 19 May 2013 - 01:06 AM, said:

I'll get rid of the armor! I'll do it for you! That's fine! You can help though, by shooting his front armor with me, and then you'll actually damage his internals. Not only that, but I'm sure he's probably gonna be shooting me over you, since I'll probably be closer (otherwise this scenario and argument is pointless), so you can just hang back a bit if you want. You don't even gotta stand right in front of him, you can be a bit to the side, just so you can hit his front.

This applies to bigger mechs too, it's just that they can get through the RT armor usually (Unless its like a trial dragon or something), so they'll actually help get the kill damage wise. They'll get to the internals. That's the key, and the point.

If all there was to 'mech combat was who brought the biggest guns and the thickest armour, you'd have a point. But there's people in those 'mechs, people that often get rattled by suddenly having their rear armour disappear, or not having a visual on that light they saw a second or two ago.

Any light that spends more time in front of a heavy/assault than behind is scrap metal, and we know it. That's why you won't often see us shooting them from the front. I'm sorry, but when you can't take a hit, you won't put yourself in a position to get hit voluntarily if you can help it.

I recommend you drop a few matches in a light and try to live as you preach - and when you come back without any kills, and getting one-shotted by heavies and assaults in match after match, perhaps you'd be a bit more inclined to listen to people who have played lights almost exclusively for the better part of a year now.

You can't play a light as you play a heavy, and that's all there's to it.

[Cubivorre]

stjobe, on 19 May 2013 - 12:16 PM, said:

lots of words

If I could give you a millions likes sir, I would. Alas, I can only give you one. And an e-hug.

[Stokes52]

So first off, I think Iron Savior is getting a bad rap. He makes a good point, but with some caveats.

If I am in a light and I come across two Assault Mech's duking it out and I notice that the enemy Assault Mech's front armor is stripped while his rear armor is completely undamaged, then yes, it makes much more sense for me to shoot at the Mech's front armor than to try and start stripping away the rear armor. This is a simple fact.

There is another advantage to placing yourself IN FRONT of an enemy assault mech that is engaging your teammates. When you make yourself visible to an assault mech while piloting a light, they very often will switch targets and attempt to shoot at you. Most often (if you know what you are doing), many of their shots will miss, meaning that they just wasted their precious alpha strike on the dirt rather than on your teammate's torso armor. Being a distraction is sometimes just as important as dealing damage in a light. Lights CAN tank in a sense, but only because speed is your armor.


Now, with all of that said, 80% of the time it is a better idea to engage an enemy mech from behind. The only circumstance where the cost/benefit of putting myself in front of an enemy assault mech is when these conditions are met:

1) The enemy has lots of long range weapons, ballistics, PPCs, or LRM and not very many short range Light-killer weapons like lasers, LBX, and SSRMS

2) The enemy's front armor is stripped and his back armor is pristine

3) I am fast enough to where I can draw fire away from my teammates while avoiding most fire from enemies.


If you can't meet these conditions, then I'm sure your Assault pilot friend would much rather you stay alive and plink away at the rear armor for the rest of the round than get a stray alpha strike into your CT in the first 2 minutes of the brawl and go down in one hit because you decided facehugging an enemy Assault was a good idea in a light mech.

Edited by Stokes52, 19 May 2013 - 12:59 PM.

[MechWarrior014249]

I have personally in a light mech engaged up to four heavy/assault mechs while flying solo, granted I got no kills, but my team won by virtue of only having to face two waves of four mechs rather then a concerted assault,. generally if I survive my harassment runs (string the enemy out, let them walk into my teams grinder one at a time) THEN i'll swing back and run through their formation from the rear, nail one guy in the back then move on while he turns and tries to find me, nail the next in the back and so on. this is a HUGE distraction to enemy pilots. Has anyone else had the amusing experience of spending five minutes leading an enemy lance on a merry chase while your team rips them a new one?

See the kicker is, this is a game, most people who play the game want to get kills, they see lights as easy kills, they go after them whenever possible because they want a better score. So yes, us light mech pilots make more tempting targets, and yes, if someones rear armor vaporizes, the're either going to die if they stand still, or turn to find the threat and give you a shot.

Having piloted my share of assaults as well, it is also nice when a couple of lights actually hang back to tackle any enemy flankers, but a couple mediums can fill that role as well,

What I don't get is why so few people use lights as spotters for missiles. done right a raven and a few catapults can trash almost any mech, all the raven has to do is maintain lock, or maybe even tag contact while the catapults on the other side of the hill unleash several hundred LRMs a salvo at that single, well painted target. if the target has ECM, switch yours to jam theirs

[lilslugger]

Stokes52, on 19 May 2013 - 12:58 PM, said:

There is another advantage to placing yourself IN FRONT of an enemy assault mech that is engaging your teammates. When you make yourself visible to an assault mech while piloting a light, they very often will switch targets and attempt to shoot at you. Most often (if you know what you are doing), many of their shots will miss, meaning that they just wasted their precious alpha strike on the dirt rather than on your teammate's torso armor. Being a distraction is sometimes just as important as dealing damage in a light. Lights CAN tank in a sense, but only because speed is your armor.

This^

I started playing my spider and had to smash into walls through the learning curve, but I've noticed the best tactic when approaching a couple of face huggers is to monitor the fire, stay behind or off to the side of your teammate and shoot when you can but keep moving around, and when you notice a common breach in fire between them, cut between and unload your weapon(s) on the center torso as well as draw the next round of fire from the enemy as you cut circles around them and allow your heavy to get some free alpha strikes in while the enemy lumbers around trying to hit you. Shooting at the back is a great tactic too but is better when facing an enemy one on one, when there is a dogfight, hit the same spot as everyone else to help bring the beast down so you all can move on to the next target.

[LapsedPacifist79]

Cubivorre, on 19 May 2013 - 12:44 PM, said:

If I could give you a millions likes sir, I would. Alas, I can only give you one. And an e-hug.

Agreed. Although I see OP's point, when I'm in my big mechs I love a fast mover providing some distraction in the rear. I can't count how many games I've won/lost due to such tactics. On the other hand, watching one of our lights getting his legs blown off by PPCs is not good. Especially when he should have been behind or to the side of them doing enough damage to make them turn away, saving my life and ending theirs.

And I'm very touched you quoted me in your sig Cubivorre. I meant every word. You are all mental...

Sorry for the mild hijack.

Edited: For vitriol.

Edited by LapsedPacifist79, 19 May 2013 - 02:54 PM.