84 replies to this topic

[Wakdjunkaga]

Since slight adjustments just don't seem to be their style- I think this would fix LRMs to the point where they are usable, but not the only weapon you would want to field.

1. Speed. Yes speed. 120 is nice, but crank them up to 150. That is just fast enough that they won't so easy to run from.

2. Spread. We used to have some good missile spread, what happened? non assisted missiles (tag/narc/artemis) should return to their old very wide spread. Then tighten by the %s offered by the upgrades, right now it is just silly tight. I think they mixed up SRM & LRM spread values...

3. Splash. I guess I can see why you wanted this for missiles, but instead of X and the point of contact with a reduced amount adding to depending on distance from that point- how about make it similar to a hit-scan laser and spread the total damage out across the applied circle of damage. So lets say a missile lands squarely on a hitbox line- half the damage would go to one area and half to the other instead of additional splash damage... but they'd have to hit something other than squarely in the CT to make this noticable anyway, see #2.

4. Damage. If splash worked like the above and spread the damage around instead of adding to it. I think we could live with 1.5 damage missiles. High enough they cannot be ignored, low enough that they aren't ruling the field. Again- as part of 3, this damage should be applied over an area and divided, not added for multiple areas hit.

5. AMS. As much as I'd hate to see this, AMS splash. Currently with tube sharing and somehow being able to fire overlapping missiles- AMS should be able to hit all missiles that are stacked/overlapped. Normally fired (non stacked) missiles would have no change)- I'd say lower AMS damage, but keep it the same to counteract increased LRM speed.

6. Flight path. It's getting closer... I really didn't mind the lower slanty flight path from before, clearing buildings is nice, but sometimes it is a little more than we need.
-
Or just try 1 thing out at a time- tuning it to see if we get somewhere both sides (givers/receivers) are closer to agreement.

[soarra]

LRm projectory seems a bit off at times. watch a few volleys make a 90 degree left turn which seemed odd, didnt have fraps running. They seem to be mainly hitting CT but their damage is in a good spot.
Hit detection on lights with LRMS seems way off, i launched 2 LRm 20's on a light standing still (with tag) and barely took any damage.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

They work a bit funky sometimes, and Artemis is still bugged to always be active. But on the whole I think they are fine.

People just need to not stand below me while i'm in the open and let me shoot 5 volley's into them before they decide to deal with me.

Why do people do that? If I had 4 PPC's they'd be freaking out.

But since I use LRM's they just....stand.

[Xeno Phalcon]

Dunno if this was intended or just someone firing from outside their range but a jagermech earlier ran past me as a cloud of LRMs came down, apparently having lost their lock they just kept going: straight into my blackjack and doing nothing, not even scratching the paint.

[Nightcrept]

I think after splash damage is reintroduced that dmg plus the current settings will be just about right.

Currently the dmg as is without splash damage is still not very good.

Can I use them yes. Are they good? NO.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Nightcrept, on 06 June 2013 - 02:02 PM, said:

I think after splash damage is reintroduced that dmg plus the current settings will be just about right.

Currently the dmg as is without splash damage is still not very good.

Can I use them yes. Are they good? NO.

The hard part here, you end up with these functional ......s who can't seem to understand the LRM's mechanics at all proclaiming they are easy mode and over powered because they had a game playing against other functional ......s where they indirectly fired from 800m and got 4 kills.

They've already started again and LRM's are still pretty much broken.

[White Bear 84]

LRM's do feel a bit much, but its one of the best balances so far. Its noticeable when everyon brings out their LRM boats. Increased damage for AMS really makes it more viable now and it hurts seeing all my 5 LRM's getting shot down.

The problem though, which is the same for all weapon classes..... ...BOATING. AMS will still do minimal against a mech boating LRM's. You can have a boating mech which is doing as much damage as a mech with two AC/20's.. ..is that right?

I dunno, i feel the balance is nearly there, but boating throws it off a bit.

[Dryer Lint]

Here's a video of LRMs in testing grounds. An Atlas with 156 total CT hitpoints is killed by 71 LRMs. This means LRMs are doing 2.2 damage per shot, which is double what they are reporting at the end game report, probably double what they should be doing at the moment. This means that a single LRM 20 puts out 9.26 DPS, which is almost twice as much as any other weapon in the entire game. If you honestly think that LRMs are not over powered, then congratulations on your literally unprecedented ability to fool yourself.

[Nexus Omega]

Dryer Lint, on 06 June 2013 - 07:02 PM, said:

Here's a video of LRMs in testing grounds. ----
---If you honestly think that LRMs are not over powered, then congratulations on your literally unprecedented ability to fool yourself.

Training ground mechs are made of paper, try those LRM's in a real match vs a Real Atlas, you won't be singing the same tune.

I think LRMS need a damage buff back to 1.6 (once Splash damage is fixed and the damage is spread correctly)
Does that make me a fool? no, I remember the days of Old, LRMS are pathetic now.

Everyone (including me) has forgotten how to hide from LRMs

White Bear 84, on 06 June 2013 - 04:21 PM, said:

The problem though, which is the same for all weapon classes..... ...BOATING.

^ This, You can't Balance for Boats, as not all Mechs are Boats.
PGI are apparently working on it.

Edited by Nexus Omega, 06 June 2013 - 08:07 PM.

[Gorillarider83]

LRMs are at a good stage right now, for awhile I noticed when Artemis was first introduced that they would travel out to the target and directly down on top of the cockpit, not the center torso. Now with Artemis they travel almost at a higher arc, and damage more accurately provided you maintain lock, or have TAG, and the subject isn't blazing past at 150KPH. They are the only viable indirect fire weapon in the game, the use of artillery and air strikes still seems to have its usefulness but only in very specific situations and I have not had personal experience with these weapons yet. It is easy to do a build that is very effective at long range direct fire and not have close range weapons for support, that is why you use teammates to support you while support them. Not being able to knife will leave you vulnerable and expect to have some cicada or jenner circle strafe you to death if you are solo. I thouroughly enjoy using LRMs not for thier high damage output but more constant and an indirect reliable source of damage and the overall assistance I can bring to a lance.

[Kmieciu]

senaiboy, on 06 June 2013 - 03:24 AM, said:

Hence Artemis and the high trajectory is mutually exclusive.

http://mwomercs.com/...23-21-may-2013/
Known Issue: Artemis equipped Mechs will always receive these bonuses, even without line of sight.

Edited by Kmieciu, 06 June 2013 - 11:10 PM.

[senaiboy]

Dryer Lint, on 06 June 2013 - 07:02 PM, said:

If you honestly think that LRMs are not over powered, then congratulations on your literally unprecedented ability to fool yourself.

I'm not sure where you get that 156points in CT from, but an Atlas only has a total of 124points in CT, and that is split between front and back as well. Also the video only demonstrates how deadly LRMs are if you're standing still - so keep moving. Training grounds is not a good substitute for in-game testing.

One thing people tends to forget is that you need to maintain lock right until the LRMs land on the target. If the lock is broken, the LRMs will land at the last enemy position where the lock was (which is how you evade LRMs, break the enemy's line of sight and not just run into cover). So if you see a LRM boat, shoot at him and make him break the lock - no LRM boat will stay in the same place with LRMs/PPCs coming at him.

Edited by senaiboy, 07 June 2013 - 02:22 AM.

[Revorn]

senaiboy, on 07 June 2013 - 02:20 AM, said:

- no LRM boat will stay in the same place with LRMs/PPCs coming at him.

Psssshht, dont tell em.

[Nightcrept]

Dryer Lint, on 06 June 2013 - 07:02 PM, said:

Here's a video of LRMs in testing grounds. An Atlas with 156 total CT hitpoints is killed by 71 LRMs. This means LRMs are doing 2.2 damage per shot, which is double what they are reporting at the end game report, probably double what they should be doing at the moment. This means that a single LRM 20 puts out 9.26 DPS, which is almost twice as much as any other weapon in the entire game. If you honestly think that LRMs are not over powered, then congratulations on your literally unprecedented ability to fool yourself.

Devs have said repeatedly that the training grounds are broken and don't run off the same in game mechanics that we do on the live servers.

All dmg etc is different on the training grounds.

[Nightcrept]

I use lrms on one of my atlai in my 4 ready mech rotation.

It is by far harder to get a decent score with my lrm variant then any of the others and takes far more work compared to my direct fire variants.

As is dmg is still very weak and the effort to effectively use them is higher then any other weapon I use.

My verdict is that you should avoid using them unless you can ultra boat them (over 40 tubes) or you are in a pre-made etc.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Nightcrept, on 07 June 2013 - 05:03 AM, said:

I use lrms on one of my atlai in my 4 ready mech rotation.

It is by far harder to get a decent score with my lrm variant then any of the others and takes far more work compared to my direct fire variants.

As is dmg is still very weak and the effort to effectively use them is higher then any other weapon I use.

My verdict is that you should avoid using them unless you can ultra boat them (over 40 tubes) or you are in a pre-made etc.

This is pretty much right.

I still find it takes very bad opponents for me to have a great game with LRM's.

I think the people reporting how overpowered they are, are either getting owned by them due to their own fault, or owning people who refuse to address LRM's by playing smarter.

[Mason Grimm]

Sadly there are still many people who think "I don't need AMS because LRMs suck (read: at least they should suck)".

Then they run into a match with someone who is chain firing LRM15s. The constant rain and cockpit pounding frustrates them and badda boom badda bing, here they are posting about how LRMs are OP.

Equip AMS
Equip ammo for your AMS
Learn to use terrain and buildings as cover

If you are standing or moving out in the open when you hear "INCOMING MISSILES" you deserve the punishment you are about to receive.

So Endeth the Lesson; the Law According to Grimm

[Islington]

Mason Grimm, on 07 June 2013 - 07:17 AM, said:

Sadly there are still many people who think "I don't need AMS because LRMs suck (read: at least they should suck)".

Then they run into a match with someone who is chain firing LRM15s. The constant rain and cockpit pounding frustrates them and badda boom badda bing, here they are posting about how LRMs are OP.

Equip AMS
Equip ammo for your AMS
Learn to use terrain and buildings as cover

If you are standing or moving out in the open when you hear "INCOMING MISSILES" you deserve the punishment you are about to receive.

So Endeth the Lesson; the Law According to Grimm

What your forgetting is LRM's are easier to use than any other weapon available and basically require zero skill. The onus of skill should be on the attacker not the defender or you are doing nothing but providing an incentive for unskilled players to never get any better.

The very concept of LRM's basically breaks any fps game. That being said complaining about them is pointless because they will never be balanced. The only really viable option is to simply remove them and lets face it thats not going to happen.

[senaiboy]

LRMs are only easy to use against bad players who make mistakes. As said, a LRM boat or a spotter needs to keep a constant line of sight for LRMs to hit, exposing themselves at the same time. And the LRM boat needs to keep the cursor on the target the whole time until the LRMs land, if you look away you break the lock and hence your LRMs' tracking ability. It is not fire and forget, how is that easy? That can't be easier than direct fire weapons where you just aim, fire and deal damage immediately.

The problem is people are still ignoring LRMs. Do you find anyone out in the open when they're getting hit by PPC boats? Of course not, yet they'll stay in the open and accept dozens of LRMs.

Edited by senaiboy, 07 June 2013 - 10:30 AM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Islington, on 07 June 2013 - 09:19 AM, said:

What your forgetting is LRM's are easier to use than any other weapon available and basically require zero skill. The onus of skill should be on the attacker not the defender or you are doing nothing but providing an incentive for unskilled players to never get any better.

The very concept of LRM's basically breaks any fps game. That being said complaining about them is pointless because they will never be balanced. The only really viable option is to simply remove them and lets face it thats not going to happen.

What's funny is that's totally wrong.

Playing LRM's actually requires as much or more skill.

Lets assume no spotter, because once you have a dedicated spotter you are talking about requiring 2 mechs to use LRM's which already basically contradicts your arguement.

So no spotter, and we'll assume you have self TAG, BAP, Adv. Decay and Artemis (lord knows, a weapon can't be good without 4 extra things).

Indirectly firing is basically a crap shoot. Anyone who plays LRM's knows that if you indirect fire from over 500m you will lose a lock and 90% of the time your missiles will miss, or hit terrain.

Within 500m, you have a chance, but you take that 30-40% hit ratio of LRM's and knock it down to 20%. And even then you aren't doing much indirectly.

So lets use LOS. Assuming ECM is in play (it is a lot still, even after the BAP indirect nerf), you have to HOLD tag on your target while missiles fly in.

You cannot defend yourself at all by twisting or moving behind terrain after you fire. Ontop of that you have to make sure you are staying at around the 400-600m mark, any closer and you risk someone easily getting inside your minimum, and over that and odds go down a ton that your shot will hit due to travel time. Also outside of 750m TAG doesn't work.

LOS firing from beyond 800m is basically once again asking for a miss due to this awesome blaring missile warning. Once again, no other weapons warn you when you are going to be fired on.

We also have a nifty system called AMS, which most people do not mount. If you do run into a few smart players with AMS, if they are grouped that's going to cut down your damage a lot.

Lets also throw in the fact that LRM's basically miss light mechs, and are having major missing issues with anything moving over 80kph, even with LOS.

LRM's require you to be more conginizant of what is going on around you than any other weapon. If they are your primary form of dealing damage not only do you have to factor in whether your missiles will have a chance of hitting, you have to make damn sure no one is getting anywhere near you.

Just the whole concept of TAG'ing and firing missiles with a flight time is already much harder than firing a PPC or a Gauss at someone.

So lets just stop this whole "LRMS ARE NO SKILL" stuff now, kid.