84 replies to this topic

[RapierE01]

Why they reworked the LRM Path again? LRM now hit you on Frozen City behind Buildings. Together with the reworked Damage and the LRM Boaters its a bit overpowert.

[soarra]

damage on lrms is fine.. but yes they are hitting from behind some buildings and torso twisting doesnt seem to do much to soak lrm's up , they still hit mainly CT too much

[Meta 2013]

I think some of these "founders" have long ago stopped playing. Its the only conclusion one can draw from some of their posts. LRM's our favorite weapon to hate (currently) until someone figures out how to exploit something else. LRM's are still too powerful, it may be the arc, it may be the damage, it may be some other mechanic working in combination, But they are still a bit too over powered.

Many suggest that if we all used counter measures and cover we would then see the light. Horse pucky, Those who say that must not random drop much. A lot folks drop in groups now and are so used too having good team mates and pre configuring the drop they simply don't realize how many folks don't do that, and aren't going to. MANY random drops there is NO ECM. So there goes that one, next is use cover, that was true before missiles took on an intercontinental trajectory to fly 400 meters ... now you need a 10 story building to hide behind. Normal terrain doesn't work to well. Combine that with when it was shot and how they track now, and the bloody things can follow you behind the 10 story building.

The Majority of people playing aren't in clans or organized drops, They are just random dropping. for those people ... missiles are still op. Look at the trail mechs ...not one comes with AMS. Man those folks gotta be hating lrm's.

ECM and AMS shouldn't be required to survive. If they are, then something is wrong. The other thing i see people saying ... well I'm doing less damage so they must be under powered now. Yes you are doing less damage, your still getting the same kill rates, just doesn't take as many missiles hitting to do it. The CT issue may very well be a big cause of the perceived OP issue, what ever it is ... something is still making them a bit OP. Yes there are those that will cry don't call them op ...its this or that... What ever the reason, the result is OP. Missiles are supposed to soften up a target, not obliterate it. Artillery is for that.

Do they seem close ... maybe, could be a tweak away from being well again. We'll have to hope and pray. If left as they are , they will detract enough from "fun game play" to drive people away. "fun to play " is the bottom line ...not cover or counter measures. You purists can do that all you want, some folks just want to shoot big guns at big mechs and hear the steel cry. I agree that doing all of those things when you drop in a group adds a level of fun, but it shouldn't be required to enjoy the game.

Meta

[Aegic]

LRMs are too powerful for players that do not know how to handle them the same way that nails are too hard to remove without a tool.

The main issue is that PUGs do not generally work together and drops are not calculated on anything other than tonnage (usually) and elo.

For PUG games only, a step in the right direction may be to add the ability to match up drops with similar builds. i.e. 6 Brawlers (with mid to short range weapons) 1 scout (with ECM, close range weapons) and 1 LRM heavy would be matched with a team with identical structure.

This with the tonnage matchups and elo matchups should help in the PUG woes I think.

LRMs are not as overpowered as you think.

[Nightcrept]

Meta 2013, on 10 June 2013 - 04:37 PM, said:

I think some of these "founders" have long ago stopped playing. Its the only conclusion one can draw from some of their posts. LRM's our favorite weapon to hate (currently) until someone figures out how to exploit something else. LRM's are still too powerful, it may be the arc, it may be the damage, it may be some other mechanic working in combination, But they are still a bit too over powered.

Many suggest that if we all used counter measures and cover we would then see the light. Horse pucky, Those who say that must not random drop much. A lot folks drop in groups now and are so used too having good team mates and pre configuring the drop they simply don't realize how many folks don't do that, and aren't going to. MANY random drops there is NO ECM. So there goes that one, next is use cover, that was true before missiles took on an intercontinental trajectory to fly 400 meters ... now you need a 10 story building to hide behind. Normal terrain doesn't work to well. Combine that with when it was shot and how they track now, and the bloody things can follow you behind the 10 story building.

The Majority of people playing aren't in clans or organized drops, They are just random dropping. for those people ... missiles are still op. Look at the trail mechs ...not one comes with AMS. Man those folks gotta be hating lrm's.

ECM and AMS shouldn't be required to survive. If they are, then something is wrong. The other thing i see people saying ... well I'm doing less damage so they must be under powered now. Yes you are doing less damage, your still getting the same kill rates, just doesn't take as many missiles hitting to do it. The CT issue may very well be a big cause of the perceived OP issue, what ever it is ... something is still making them a bit OP. Yes there are those that will cry don't call them op ...its this or that... What ever the reason, the result is OP. Missiles are supposed to soften up a target, not obliterate it. Artillery is for that.

Do they seem close ... maybe, could be a tweak away from being well again. We'll have to hope and pray. If left as they are , they will detract enough from "fun game play" to drive people away. "fun to play " is the bottom line ...not cover or counter measures. You purists can do that all you want, some folks just want to shoot big guns at big mechs and hear the steel cry. I agree that doing all of those things when you drop in a group adds a level of fun, but it shouldn't be required to enjoy the game.

Meta

Ummm noo.....just a whole lot of no in that entire post.

I am a founder, I play almost everyday and I am a pug only player.
Lrm's are only overpowered if you are wanting to play a fps brawling only game. Which this is not.

Otherwise lrm's suck. Use them and I will hunt you relentlessly. The more players think they are op and use lrms the higher my kdr gets.

The dmg that lrm deals is soooo far below that of all other weapons as to be laughably pathetic. During the period of dec-2012 to feb 2013 lrms where far more powerful and still didn't dominate the battlefield and or game meta. They then broke them and we have been trying to get back to a happy spot since.

Devs should start off at that previously voted on and accepted dmg lvl then adjust dmg down as they buff other areas of lrm performance. My bet is current speed and flight path 1.3-1.5 dmg plus a correctly working splash mechanic.

[hoverstorm]

LRMs are definitely at where I think it should be.

If you are getting bombarded by LRMs, and you do not have a visual contact with a LRM boat.

Option1: That simply means, someone is doing some spotting for the boats. *Kill the spotters first, then move in close to the boat (<180m), and you will be able to kill those boats, as they won't probably won't carry anything more than medium lasers).

Option2, is to get the boats first, before you kill off the other mechs.

Option3, fight enemy's advancing mechs behind cover, and force their boats to move closer to your position. By the time the boats come close enough, ur team would have picked off all the advancing mechs. Again, move within the 180m range, and kill those boats.

*The lrm boats aren't overpowered. Play as a team, and you will definitely win against a team with more than 2 lrms boats.

USE THE COVER. If you stand out in the open, of course its gonna hurt. (Actually any balanced weapons would hurt).

Edited by Eirikr Sim, 10 June 2013 - 07:22 PM.

[Seddrik]

Nightcrept, on 08 June 2013 - 11:56 AM, said:

If you're going to come on here sounding stupid you can expect people to respond accordingly.

Fact is that what you're describing doesn't happen unless you are too new to know what you are doing or u suck. Many of the guys talking to you have played over 5000 games and or been here since closed beta so yes they know a lot.

Especially a issue like lrm balancing we have dealt with for more then a year.



Just because you get the warning it does not mean that the mech who fired them is going to be able to hit you with them.

If you don't like the warning there isn't anything you can do about it. (most of us don't like it either.)

Use your speed effectively to help negate most of the dmg from lrms.

Terrain does work I use it in my atlai to avoid lrms. (So i can definitely do it in your light mech.)

Don't try to brawl in a light.


None of this is brain surgery.

And again with the elitist snobbery and insults.

I won't bore you by telling you what I can do in game with a light. I'll just post some screenies.





I'm not saying I am "the best". Nor am I touting "So and so played 5000 hours and knows what they are saying" because I know some people who have played 5000+ hours and STILL don't know how to play... So don't pull this garbage of "You're just a stupid noob so listen to me... learn how to play... only play a light this way" stuff.

I had a guy telling me in TS yesterday "You're supposed to play a light with a tag..." Why should I? MUST every light conform ONLY to one roll? "Don't try to brawl in a light. None of this is brain surgery." At least you made me chuckle. Now, can we get back to discussing the topic without trolling & ad hominum attacks to "prove" your point? It would be appreciated.

Asmosis, on 07 June 2013 - 01:41 PM, said:

I think people forget that to get a lock, you need to have the mouse over your target for a few seconds. Its a lot easier to do that and fire a ballistic/ppc projectile at the person than grab a lock and keep it locked for the flight time, while making sure there is no immediate cover within 5-7 seconds travelling distance.

(snip)

Actually it doesn't even take a few seconds. I played a LRM HGN boat with 45 missles and then 60. I scored over 600 damage both times, and I rarely ever use LRMs. I didn't even use a tag... though that makes targeting MUCH faster. I didn't use a UAV, which makes targeting easier. I didn't use a spotter, which makes targeting easier. I didn't use 360 lock or any of the other options you can carry AND STACK together. In fact, when stacking the right items, you can almost instantly lock on...

You don't even have to stack all the things you can stack to excel in LRMs... If it was just a matter of good players, that'd be fine. I've seen a group of guys cooperating in 2-3 cats that I cannot but praise for their skill. Two were LRM boats and one was a streak cat. They rocked the matches I have seen them in, destroying people near and far. THATS skill and intelligent play at work. But the problem is that the trajectory is the main issue IMO with missles. PPC snipers at least can't hit you when you have cover. Yet LRM boats can...

I'm not the only one saying missle trajectory is over done right now. If they had upped the damage and left trajactory alone... ok. If they had upped the speed and left trajectory alone... ok. But they upped speed, upped damage and super tweaked trajectory AND upped the lock on/tracking perks (made several stackable now) all at the same time. So yeah... missles are a bit much at this moment.

They need to do things more gradually. Put the trajectory back a notch and see how it goes. I'm guessing it would be enough to make missles more balanced.

Edited by Seddrik, 11 June 2013 - 01:54 AM.

[Sneaky B]

How to evade missiles:

Option A: Bring AMS

Option B: Stay under ECM

Option C: hide behind cover & take a few side steps

Not sure how they are OP at the moment. If anything they are just right at the moment and require a lot of coordination to be worth it. Committing to an LRM heavy lance can be countered by constant harassment or killing their scouts.

Compared to say... PPC boats, its effectiveness is WAAAY below. The damage only seem high at first glance but you have to note that it's spread out. Even the SRMs I often use are underpowered.

Edited by Sneaky B, 11 June 2013 - 03:19 AM.

[Nightcrept]

Seddrik, on 11 June 2013 - 01:28 AM, said:

And again with the elitist snobbery and insults.

I won't bore you by telling you what I can do in game with a light. I'll just post some screenies.





I'm not saying I am "the best". Nor am I touting "So and so played 5000 hours and knows what they are saying" because I know some people who have played 5000+ hours and STILL don't know how to play... So don't pull this garbage of "You're just a stupid noob so listen to me... learn how to play... only play a light this way" stuff.

I had a guy telling me in TS yesterday "You're supposed to play a light with a tag..." Why should I? MUST every light conform ONLY to one roll? "Don't try to brawl in a light. None of this is brain surgery." At least you made me chuckle. Now, can we get back to discussing the topic without trolling & ad hominum attacks to "prove" your point? It would be appreciated.



Actually it doesn't even take a few seconds. I played a LRM HGN boat with 45 missles and then 60. I scored over 600 damage both times, and I rarely ever use LRMs. I didn't even use a tag... though that makes targeting MUCH faster. I didn't use a UAV, which makes targeting easier. I didn't use a spotter, which makes targeting easier. I didn't use 360 lock or any of the other options you can carry AND STACK together. In fact, when stacking the right items, you can almost instantly lock on...

You don't even have to stack all the things you can stack to excel in LRMs... If it was just a matter of good players, that'd be fine. I've seen a group of guys cooperating in 2-3 cats that I cannot but praise for their skill. Two were LRM boats and one was a streak cat. They rocked the matches I have seen them in, destroying people near and far. THATS skill and intelligent play at work. But the problem is that the trajectory is the main issue IMO with missles. PPC snipers at least can't hit you when you have cover. Yet LRM boats can...

I'm not the only one saying missle trajectory is over done right now. If they had upped the damage and left trajactory alone... ok. If they had upped the speed and left trajectory alone... ok. But they upped speed, upped damage and super tweaked trajectory AND upped the lock on/tracking perks (made several stackable now) all at the same time. So yeah... missles are a bit much at this moment.

They need to do things more gradually. Put the trajectory back a notch and see how it goes. I'm guessing it would be enough to make missles more balanced.

Perhaps genius you should read the post I was responding to.

Secondly, someones in game abilities have zero to do with their ability to understand game meta and mechanics. In general the players who have played the longest have been witness to the most tweaks and changes by pgi to the game meta and weapons balance issues.



As for lrms.

If you run a the same mech with lrms and them with the equivalent non-missile weapon (g-rifle-erppc) your score will be substantially higher and you will find it much easier to play.

Lrm's have been tweaked and tweaked and ripped apart more times then most can remember. So most suggestions have been tried already. So while newer players may have just as good of a grasp on game mechanics they do not know what has been tried before in the past and worked or didn't.


Lastly the elitist thing.

I responded to an insult with a insult. You did the same. Difference is I actual know that what you are suggesting has been done. Older players remember lrms being vastly more powerful and not breaking game meta. Thus my suggestion above.

"Devs should start off at that previously voted on and accepted dmg lvl then adjust dmg down as they buff other areas of lrm performance. My bet is current speed and flight path 1.3-1.5 dmg plus a correctly working splash mechanic"


And you can quote me that when splash damage is reintroduced missiles will be vastly more powerful as they have always been before the bugged patch. And the game will again be better for it.

[tulip]

Dryer Lint, on 06 June 2013 - 07:02 PM, said:

Here's a video of LRMs in testing grounds. An Atlas with 156 total CT hitpoints is killed by 71 LRMs. This means LRMs are doing 2.2 damage per shot, which is double what they are reporting at the end game report, probably double what they should be doing at the moment. This means that a single LRM 20 puts out 9.26 DPS, which is almost twice as much as any other weapon in the entire game. If you honestly think that LRMs are not over powered, then congratulations on your literally unprecedented ability to fool yourself.

If that mech had even a single AMS it would have shot all those LRM's down thus the conclusion would have been that a single AMS makes you invulnerable to LRMs. Are AMS's OP or is that an unrealistic test?

When fired in large numbers the LRMs spread out dealing damage to a large area, unlike ballistic or energy weapons it's important to remember this when talking about balance.

I understand you were trying to work out the damage for a single LRM but honestly rather than using them on testing grounds and guessing you could probably obtain better information by sync dropping until you get a friend on the opposite team then arrange for them to stand out in the open away from any AMS, you can fire a known quantity of LRMs and not shoot for the rest of the round, the score screen will tell you how much damage you caused.

[Aegic]

Lets keep it kosher boys.

[42and19]

It's really interesting to see the dichotomy between the opinions here. I have to wonder if maybe the lrms are working better for some people than for others and maybe this might have something to do with latency and hit detection.

I would also like to respond to the obviously jealous burn on founders. I also drop solo most of the time and I have found that countering lrm boats is not that hard. I have not experienced any of the issues with trajectory that people are complaining about. I seem to be able to take cover behind most hills and buildings. I wonder again if this isn't an issue with latency and hit detection. It could be that the server is seeing you in a different spot than it show on your screen.

I agree with some of the previous comments that there have been times in the past were lrm's have been overpowered to an insane amount. I remember just two months ago or so were a single lrm volly could wreck any mech if shot from the right angle because nearly all the damage hit the head. There have also been times to the other extreme.

Personally I find that I am rather frustrated with pgi at the moment. In comparison to other mmo development teams that I encounter they seem to be....lacking something.

I dunno, hopefully they will fix things soon I guess so that everyone can whine about something else being overpowered.

(A note, one thing that a lot of people are not keeping in mind is when there are three boats focusing fire they SHOULD be able to wreck a mech quickly. It's not different than three laser boats focusing fire or whatever. Focus fire destroys in this game)

[Asmosis]

Seddrik, on 08 June 2013 - 11:29 AM, said:

You know, the replies are almost laughable. Because you guys know every reply to every situation.

I know you can out run SOME missles... but with the missle speeds and trajectory, when missles get launched by multiple boats in numbers above 40 each (thats called boating btw just so you know) you won't be taking just scratches on the paint. But you guys know all this right? or did you forget?

Want to know how much damage you'll take from multiple ppc/ballistic boats? hint: its a LOT more than multiple lrm boats.

If you walk into line of sight of 3-4 PPC stalkers, you are dead within 2 seconds, plan and simple. Walk into line of sight of 3-4 lrm stalkers (the heaviest hitting lrm boats) and you'll take heavy damage in 6-7 seconds that you have a decent shot at avoiding altogether, and you wont actually die unless you take another 2 volleys.

What people like you tend to forget is your trying to compare taking damage from 4 assult class mechs simultaneously to *ONE* assult class brawler or longe range laser/ballistic mech and saying that the 4 combined are balanced or OP because they actually manage to outdamage a single mech? oh and thats not counting the requirement for 1-2 scouts for indirect fire i.e. almost an entire team vs one mech.

[bonapartist1]

LRM has once again defined MWO combat for the worse, as it was many many months ago.

PGI drops the ball again.

[bonapartist1]

Asmosis, on 11 June 2013 - 08:08 PM, said:

Want to know how much damage you'll take from multiple ppc/ballistic boats? hint: its a LOT more than multiple lrm boats.

If you walk into line of sight of 3-4 PPC stalkers, you are dead within 2 seconds, plan and simple. Walk into line of sight of 3-4 lrm stalkers (the heaviest hitting lrm boats) and you'll take heavy damage in 6-7 seconds that you have a decent shot at avoiding altogether, and you wont actually die unless you take another 2 volleys.

A) you're underestimating the damage of those LRM volleys, and you forget that those stalkers need to put themselves at enormous risk to hit you with PPCs. They have high reward and high risk. If they miss their second alpha strike, they're shutting down and are incredibly vulnerable. They have to squint, consider, sweat, and really concentrate to hit you; they yell "yes!" or "merde" depending on whether they hit true, whether it all dumps into the intended component, whether a friend jumps in his line of fire. The LRM is just an armchair-losers dream. He puts himself at no risk, is not worried about heat, does not often worry about ammunition, does not have to put himself in LOS toward the enemy; he's not at risk in any meaningful way.

LRM and SSRM are the crutch weapons and should be treated as such. They shouldn't be elevated to amongst the most destructive, effective weaponry in the game.

[Col Jaime Wolf]

i agree the lrm damage is a bit much, also i don't think lrms work the way they should. i think the splash damage should just be dropped until PGI finds a way to balance that issue out separately simply because the current implementation of splash for lrms just seems broken for the purpose of realistic/balanced LRM splash. it either does no appreciable splash, or it acts like ppc's from MW2, dealing so much splash that a head shot is inevitable and very likely.

LRMS should move much faster in my opinion, as deadly as they are, with patience and good cover, mechs as slow as 40 kph don't have to worry about even a single missile hitting them. granted there are plenty of pilots that just take the damage, realistically (tactically) lrms are useless against a prepared and trained foe.

LRMS with Artemis should have much better path finding, by that lrms+Artemis should always (within reason) intelligently go above or below the crystals in tourmaline or other obstacles of the like, instead of taking a suicide path and just smashing needlessly into the rocks/building. this should also allow LRMS to effectively climb then dive at mechs behind tall buildings. LRMS main purpose is to provide indirect fire, its like a grenade in its tactical application. smoke out the sniper or machine guns nest, or providing tactical support to your teammates, by hitting targets far away without having to expose yourself to direct fire.

this is why LRMS need speed and accuracy more than damage. they have to be tactically useful and balanced, right now LRMS are pretty missiles that float along and devastate your team needlessly before your eyes. again this is why i think they need less damage (not nerfed damage, just reasonable, like lrm 20 actually doing something like 20 damage with a good hit), more speed, better flight paths. more tactical uses for smoking out campers and snipers with indirect fire.

also PGI needs to hurry up with heat penalties for weapon boating.

Edited by Mellifluer, 11 June 2013 - 09:21 PM.

[Nightcrept]

bonapartist1, on 11 June 2013 - 08:20 PM, said:

A) you're underestimating the damage of those LRM volleys, and you forget that those stalkers need to put themselves at enormous risk to hit you with PPCs. They have high reward and high risk. If they miss their second alpha strike, they're shutting down and are incredibly vulnerable. They have to squint, consider, sweat, and really concentrate to hit you; they yell "yes!" or "merde" depending on whether they hit true, whether it all dumps into the intended component, whether a friend jumps in his line of fire. The LRM is just an armchair-losers dream. He puts himself at no risk, is not worried about heat, does not often worry about ammunition, does not have to put himself in LOS toward the enemy; he's not at risk in any meaningful way.

LRM and SSRM are the crutch weapons and should be treated as such. They shouldn't be elevated to amongst the most destructive, effective weaponry in the game.

What a load of crap.

"The LRM is just an armchair-losers dream. He puts himself at no risk, is not worried about heat, does not often worry about ammunition, does not have to put himself in LOS toward the enemy; he's not at risk in any meaningful way."

No one plays lrms like that. And you get almost zero damage if you do.

The easiest weapons in the game to use are the ppc-erppc's. You could train a monkey to get over 500 dmg using them.
On the contrary almost no one can currently do the same with lrms.

I use them all. Almost every weapon. And lrms are currently the hardest of all to use effectively.

Ppc-erppc are easy mode. I can fire off my alphas then switch to chainfire and get far far far more dmg and kills then with my lrm boat.

[RapierE01]

You are now nearby unable to find Cover from LRM. On Frozen City or Caustic and Canyon you die in a massive Lrm rain because LRM fall behind nearby every Cover you can find on this maps.

Is this what Devs want for LRM?

[42and19]

I'm going to have to run some experiments. I really need to see this whole, "can't take cover" thing in action. Because I am seriously confused on this. Hmmm To bad I won't have much time today.

A couple questions for those having issues taking cover.

1) what is your average ping
2) if you have a vague idea what is the average ping of the boats that are firing volleys you can't dodge?
3) what mechs are you all piloting. (I think height may have something to do with taking cover )

I'm really curious to see what is going on and I really have a feeling that this heated argument may be due to a game bug that is only effecting some.

[Asmosis]

bonapartist1, on 11 June 2013 - 08:20 PM, said:

A) you're underestimating the damage of those LRM volleys, and you forget that those stalkers need to put themselves at enormous risk to hit you with PPCs. They have high reward and high risk. If they miss their second alpha strike, they're shutting down and are incredibly vulnerable. They have to squint, consider, sweat, and really concentrate to hit you; they yell &quot;yes!&quot; or &quot;merde&quot; depending on whether they hit true, whether it all dumps into the intended component, whether a friend jumps in his line of fire. The LRM is just an armchair-losers dream. He puts himself at no risk, is not worried about heat, does not often worry about ammunition, does not have to put himself in LOS toward the enemy; he's not at risk in any meaningful way.

LRM and SSRM are the crutch weapons and should be treated as such. They shouldn't be elevated to amongst the most destructive, effective weaponry in the game.

You need line of sight for both weapons. I know this as I use a lrm70 stalker with tag/atremis sometimes, its vastly inferior to a 4 PPC stalker with supplementary weapons for dealing with close combat. You don't fire PPCs and then stand still. you fire on the move from cover to cover, you can't do that with lrms.

You need to get the target lock, and hold it. You need visual contact the entire time, during which time he can hit you twice on either side torso he wants (remember HSR favors the attacker, you can't swivel to avoid it).

Also only a 6 ppc stalker will shut down after a 2nd volley. I can fire 4-5 aimed 4ppc volleys before overheating, which is enough to core a mech if he's silly enough to stay in range, which coincidently is what a LRM boat needs to do in order for those lrms to connect.

Also you can't use the excuse "but indirect fire due to spotter ..." into the equation without introducing a second mech on the PPC side as well. If it requires a 2v1 scenario just to be on par, its not a good build.

***

those proposed heat changes may change things for stalkers, but not for lrm boats. highlanders have about the same alpha made up of energy + ballistic, atlas to some degree as well (and misery ofc).

Edited by Asmosis, 12 June 2013 - 06:49 AM.