84 replies to this topic

[Nightcrept]

Islington, on 07 June 2013 - 09:19 AM, said:

What your forgetting is LRM's are easier to use than any other weapon available and basically require zero skill. The onus of skill should be on the attacker not the defender or you are doing nothing but providing an incentive for unskilled players to never get any better.

The very concept of LRM's basically breaks any fps game. That being said complaining about them is pointless because they will never be balanced. The only really viable option is to simply remove them and lets face it thats not going to happen.

Sorry man but that just isn't true.

Lrm's are by far the hardest weapon system to effectively use right now and has hideous damage to weight ratios.
It is easy to fire a lrm after you get a momentary lock. But it is almost impossible currently to be a good lrm user.

And this is not a fps game. If you want a fps shooter go play cod etc.

[Asmosis]

I think people forget that to get a lock, you need to have the mouse over your target for a few seconds. Its a lot easier to do that and fire a ballistic/ppc projectile at the person than grab a lock and keep it locked for the flight time, while making sure there is no immediate cover within 5-7 seconds travelling distance.

I play stalkers mainly atm, can definitely say it takes more skill to play a lrm stalker than a PPC stalker effectively.

As for lrms themselves, the flight path is pretty good right now, they do seem to be CT intensive but that could just be down to atremis+tag in my case (i dont indirect fire, ever). The damage is still a bit on the low side, but its not horrible. I consistently outdamge my lrm stalker with my ppc or LL stalker though.

On the receiving end i've had arms/side torsos blown off by lrms so there is definitely spread, but it might only apply to non buffed (no atremis/tag/narc) ones.

Edited by Asmosis, 07 June 2013 - 01:42 PM.

[Krzysztof z Bagien]

Nexus Omega, on 06 June 2013 - 08:09 PM, said:

Training ground mechs are made of paper, try those LRM's in a real match vs a Real Atlas, you won't be singing the same tune.

Stock Atlas D (the one that is in testing grounds) have 94 armour on the front CT + 62 points of internal CT. That makes 156 damage required to core it from the front, guy is right.

Nightcrept, on 07 June 2013 - 04:55 AM, said:

Devs have said repeatedly that the training grounds are broken and don't run off the same in game mechanics that we do on the live servers.
All dmg etc is different on the training grounds.

Devs have said many things repeatedly, many of which turned out to be not true. This is one of them.
Damage done in testing grounds is no different from done in normal game, I've tested that. There are slight differences in cooldown time, your targets are stationary and have lower amounts of armour in general than people normally use, but damage you do is exactly the same.
It is really hard to test LRMs and SSRMs in live game without any form of lobby, as both of the weapons require lock, which can only by aquired no enemy. We (means Kmieciu and I) have tested SRMs however, and results are somewhat confusing: it took 44 salvos from SRM6 to kill a stationary Jenner from 200m. That's 264 missiles, in theory almost 400 damage! To kill a Catapult we only needed 23 salvos. Both targets were tested in live game, both mechs we normally use and have almost maxed out armour. That leads me to belive missile (from all missile weapons, not only SRM) damage is applied differently for different mechs, because of some kind of hitbox bug probably. Or maybe there is some bug in HSR?
Conclusion: it's realy hard to tell whether LRMs are OK (they seem to be about right to me, but that's just a feeling without hard evidence to support it) or not.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

I can say from when training grounds were installed to now. I've always one shotted every light/medium with one volley of 3 LRM 15's. Sometimes I core a heavy in 1, if not 1 and a half to kill. And Assaults are 2-3.

It's been that way the whole time. No matter what version of LRM's.

Training Grounds are not a good way to test LRM's at all. Period.

I can tell you right now. I can't kill lights with LRM's, Mediums seem to have a 50% miss rate, And Heavies/Assaults take 5+ volley's to kill.

[Nightcrept]

Krzysztof z Bagien, on 07 June 2013 - 02:18 PM, said:

Stock Atlas D (the one that is in testing grounds) have 94 armour on the front CT + 62 points of internal CT. That makes 156 damage required to core it from the front, guy is right.

Devs have said many things repeatedly, many of which turned out to be not true. This is one of them.
Damage done in testing grounds is no different from done in normal game, I've tested that. There are slight differences in cooldown time, your targets are stationary and have lower amounts of armour in general than people normally use, but damage you do is exactly the same.
It is really hard to test LRMs and SSRMs in live game without any form of lobby, as both of the weapons require lock, which can only by aquired no enemy. We (means Kmieciu and I) have tested SRMs however, and results are somewhat confusing: it took 44 salvos from SRM6 to kill a stationary Jenner from 200m. That's 264 missiles, in theory almost 400 damage! To kill a Catapult we only needed 23 salvos. Both targets were tested in live game, both mechs we normally use and have almost maxed out armour. That leads me to belive missile (from all missile weapons, not only SRM) damage is applied differently for different mechs, because of some kind of hitbox bug probably. Or maybe there is some bug in HSR?
Conclusion: it's realy hard to tell whether LRMs are OK (they seem to be about right to me, but that's just a feeling without hard evidence to support it) or not.

Other players have done tests on and in the training grounds.

It is known to be borked in comparison to the main servers (regardless of what you think.)
Damage, hit boxes, splash dmg etc are different.

[Krzysztof z Bagien]

Every non-missile weapon I tested in testing ground behaves exactly like I expect it in the terms of damage (like ERPPC does exactly 10 damage, Gauss 15 and so on). If you don't belive me test it yourself.
With missiles it's slightly different story, as they are not pinpoint accurate and spread their damage all over the target, so I can't be sure they do what they're supposed to in TG. Also, LRMs and SSRMs require lock so it can't be tested on a friendlly. Results of firing SRMs at Kmieciu in live game (we dropped together) are very similar to what I get in testing grounds however. We didn't test LRMs and SSRMs so I can't be SURE they are the same in TG and live, but what I have seen so far makes me belive missiles in TG behave just like in normal game. SRMs certainly do, or are very similar at least.
Has anyone actually tested LRMs in live game in the conditions matching TG (stationary target, noone firing at you etc.)?

Edited by Krzysztof z Bagien, 07 June 2013 - 03:05 PM.

[Nexus Omega]

Krzysztof z Bagien, on 07 June 2013 - 02:18 PM, said:

Stock Atlas D (the one that is in testing grounds) have 94 armour on the front CT + 62 points of internal CT. That makes 156 damage required to core it from the front, guy is right.

Devs have said many things repeatedly, many of which turned out to be not true. This is one of them.
Damage done in testing grounds is no different from done in normal game, I've tested that. There are slight differences in cooldown time, your targets are stationary and have lower amounts of armour in general than people normally use, but damage you do is exactly the same.

Let me tell you of a tale of old when the Stalker was first introduced,LRM's did 1.7 Damage. 1.6 was considered under-powered, and 1.8 was OP,
I drove a Stalker 5S Filled with 70 LRM tubes, I met a Catapult we locked eyes and fired our LRM's at each other, his 30 vs my 70, our AMS chattered away, and missiles collided with steal, the Catapult tried to run after the first volley stripped his Armour, but by then it was too late, a 2nd volley of 70 LRMs was already inbound, and the Catpult was turned to scrap.

The Stalker hungry for more, found an Atlas, a mighty beast of steel slow and steady the Atlas approached. The Stalker fired his LRM's ready for his next meal, but the Atlas shrugged, 1 volley 2 volley 3 volley and 4. The Atlas caught the Stalker, and the Stalker was no more.

The Moral of this story is, even back when LRM's caused nearly 60% more damage, including splash, (when everything worked right)
You could not quite 1 shot a Catapult, Let alone an Atlas, I find it very hard to Belive you can kill an Atlas with just 70 LRM's in a live game, with the current state of LRM's

I have just tried a 3L with 2 LRM5's I fired off a ton of ammo, everything in line of site, shot a HBK and a Legged Commando did 54 damage total. both targets we stationary.
(was trying to record it but I can't seem to save recordings..)

if only enemy players were more cooperative,

[Seddrik]

I get on the fastest mech I have - Jenner with xl 300. Heres how my games go.

I hide behind a building... WARNING INCOMING MISSLES!

I run to a bigger building... WARNING INCOMING MISSLES!

I fall back behind multiple buildings... WARNING INCOMING MISSLES!

I run to a new area to find better cover... WARNING INCOMING MISSLES!

WARNING INCOMING MISSLES!

WARNING INCOMING MISSLES!

WARNING INCOMING MISSLES!

I get so sick of it I just stop, so the game can stinking end and I can post yet again in this forum.

Get the point yet? Even in a building thick map, its rediculously hard to hide. It makes sneaking impossible with all the combined sensors. And in one alpha I get critical red legs... then stun mechanism comes into play.... plus JJs shake... So that its a PAIN IN THE REAR to even play a light when it USED to be fun.

PGI actually put up a sale for colors and hero mechs (even though they arent ones I wanted) so I bought some MC. BUT... I'm still not happy with these rediculous patches that only seem to primarily reduce & handicap brawling.

I am mad because I really enjoyed this game... until recent patches. At least you could hide from poptarts... all too often when you THINK you've hidden from missles... you can't.

Edited by Seddrik, 07 June 2013 - 11:46 PM.

[Fiona Marshe]

You will get "Incoming Missile" warnings anytime a locked salvo fires on you. It does not mean they are going to hit!
You receive it with StreakSRMs as well.

Instead of finding cover, you should be looking for the enemy spotter (usually a Raven-3L or Cicada) that is locking you up for the LRM boats.

[Bad Andy]

this patch is fine, if you think lrms are strong you should look to your playstyle first

[Monkeystador]

Seddrik, on 07 June 2013 - 11:38 PM, said:

I get on the fastest mech I have - Jenner with xl 300. Heres how my games go.

I hide behind a building... WARNING INCOMING MISSLES!

I run to a bigger building... WARNING INCOMING MISSLES!

I fall back behind multiple buildings... WARNING INCOMING MISSLES!

I run to a new area to find better cover... WARNING INCOMING MISSLES!

WARNING INCOMING MISSLES!

WARNING INCOMING MISSLES!

WARNING INCOMING MISSLES!

I get so sick of it I just stop, so the game can stinking end and I can post yet again in this forum.

Get the point yet? Even in a building thick map, its rediculously hard to hide. It makes sneaking impossible with all the combined sensors. And in one alpha I get critical red legs... then stun mechanism comes into play.... plus JJs shake... So that its a PAIN IN THE REAR to even play a light when it USED to be fun.

PGI actually put up a sale for colors and hero mechs (even though they arent ones I wanted) so I bought some MC. BUT... I'm still not happy with these rediculous patches that only seem to primarily reduce & handicap brawling.

I am mad because I really enjoyed this game... until recent patches. At least you could hide from poptarts... all too often when you THINK you've hidden from missles... you can't.

Haha, you mean running around with lag shield and abusing the lack of knockdowns? Every pilot that got used to this will be in for a bad suprise after all these issues are fixed.
Light mechs are not made directly combat heavier mechs. Either its light vs lights or lights can only do hit and run or scouting. Thats why i think its all good to get this **** fixed.

And regarding hiding... its supposed to like this. There should be no really save hiding place. The must be a leverage point to every situation.

Edited by Monkeystador, 08 June 2013 - 06:52 AM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Seddrik, on 07 June 2013 - 11:38 PM, said:

I get on the fastest mech I have - Jenner with xl 300. Heres how my games go.

I hide behind a building... WARNING INCOMING MISSLES!

I run to a bigger building... WARNING INCOMING MISSLES!

I fall back behind multiple buildings... WARNING INCOMING MISSLES!

I run to a new area to find better cover... WARNING INCOMING MISSLES!

WARNING INCOMING MISSLES!

WARNING INCOMING MISSLES!

WARNING INCOMING MISSLES!

I get so sick of it I just stop, so the game can stinking end and I can post yet again in this forum.

Get the point yet? Even in a building thick map, its rediculously hard to hide. It makes sneaking impossible with all the combined sensors. And in one alpha I get critical red legs... then stun mechanism comes into play.... plus JJs shake... So that its a PAIN IN THE REAR to even play a light when it USED to be fun.

PGI actually put up a sale for colors and hero mechs (even though they arent ones I wanted) so I bought some MC. BUT... I'm still not happy with these rediculous patches that only seem to primarily reduce & handicap brawling.

I am mad because I really enjoyed this game... until recent patches. At least you could hide from poptarts... all too often when you THINK you've hidden from missles... you can't.

I'm going to try and be nice...but I really do not understand how people can be so utterly uninformed about the game.

LRM's basically can't hit a max engine light mech moving at full speed.

You will catch maybe 1-5 missiles out of a 45 missile volley hitting you. So that's about 5 damage give or take, spread out over your mech.

I don't know how you don't realize that.

The missile warning doesn't mean anything except that someone had a 1 second lock on you and fired missiles.

If you are moving you can't be hurt.

I literally cannot kill light mechs with LRM's unless they mess up and stop moving.

[Pando]

Kmieciu, on 06 June 2013 - 01:40 AM, said:

The one thing I find anticlimactic is that the LRM hit the center torso so often. When I kill people using LRMs (no Atemis) , it's always the center torso that gets destroyed first. It's never the side torso...

Stop starring at the pretty missiles. I constantly find myself coring LT or RT provided I have an XL because I take a quick moment to find the source of the LRMs, locate nearest cover, figure out if they're going to hit me, position my rear /side to the missiles and let them hit. I would rather lose an arm than my CT.

Playstyle, fix yours!

[Dude42]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 08 June 2013 - 06:58 AM, said:

I'm going to try and be nice...but I really do not understand how people can be so utterly uninformed about the game.

LRM's basically can't hit a max engine light mech moving at full speed.

You will catch maybe 1-5 missiles out of a 45 missile volley hitting you. So that's about 5 damage give or take, spread out over your mech.

I don't know how you don't realize that.

The missile warning doesn't mean anything except that someone had a 1 second lock on you and fired missiles.

If you are moving you can't be hurt.

I literally cannot kill light mechs with LRM's unless they mess up and stop moving.

It is the "Incoming Missile" message that is OP. He never said he was getting hit with missiles or dying to them randomly. He just stops playing if he sees the incoming missile message too many times. Maybe they should just remove the message

[Motroid]

I think LRMs are just fine as they are right now.

When hitting they do devastating damage. As they should, regarding the sacrifices (Weight, Ammo...).
But still gives the pilots some options for (effective) defense, like AMS, Battlefield awareness, Jump jets)

Was a long way to go, we might have finally arrived.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Dude42, on 08 June 2013 - 07:03 AM, said:

It is the "Incoming Missile" message that is OP. He never said he was getting hit with missiles or dying to them randomly. He just stops playing if he sees the incoming missile message too many times. Maybe they should just remove the message

If only.

[Seddrik]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 08 June 2013 - 06:58 AM, said:

I'm going to try and be nice...but I really do not understand how people can be so utterly uninformed about the game.

LRM's basically can't hit a max engine light mech moving at full speed.

You will catch maybe 1-5 missiles out of a 45 missile volley hitting you. So that's about 5 damage give or take, spread out over your mech.

I don't know how you don't realize that.

The missile warning doesn't mean anything except that someone had a 1 second lock on you and fired missiles.

If you are moving you can't be hurt.

I literally cannot kill light mechs with LRM's unless they mess up and stop moving.

You know, the replies are almost laughable. Because you guys know every reply to every situation.

I know you can out run SOME missles... but with the missle speeds and trajectory, when missles get launched by multiple boats in numbers above 40 each (thats called boating btw just so you know) you won't be taking just scratches on the paint. But you guys know all this right? or did you forget?


I know there can be spotters. I am not talking about that. I know for a fact that there was no spotter behind us when i posted. I swept the area and ran back through (with seismic etc) it trying to find some small place of shelter from endless missles.

And if I dared to go into the open, I would get alphaed by 4+ people.


But you guys know every thing already so its not use telling you all this...

Pando, on 08 June 2013 - 07:01 AM, said:

Stop starring at the pretty missiles. I constantly find myself coring LT or RT provided I have an XL because I take a quick moment to find the source of the LRMs, locate nearest cover, figure out if they're going to hit me, position my rear /side to the missiles and let them hit. I would rather lose an arm than my CT.

Playstyle, fix yours!

Interpretation - don't play a light like a light. Ok fine. I am FORCED now to play like a poptart in a light. Hang way back, put on ONE er ppc... and just sniper. How... fun.... zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

But hey you guys know the answers to everything.

Edited by Seddrik, 08 June 2013 - 11:37 AM.

[John MatriX82]

The issue remains the boating, I've seen 5xLRM15 stk 5M core blow a fresh Atlas with 1,5 volleys.. they are still pretty CT intensive. Until they won't realize we need some kind of hardpoint system limiting, the game ballast will always be off for absurd builds like these.

They should limit the maximum number of address-able lrm launchers to the tubes available in that section. This way only a STK 3H could bring 50 LRMs (20 tubes in each arm, 6 -lrm5- in each side torso), like an HGN 732 could, but then you'd fall to 40 LRMs in the CTPL-C4, 30x on trebs,awesomes,other stalkers, CTPL-A1/C1, JM6-A, 20x on HBK 4J and 10 in the rest.

You've got more of a missile hardpoint in a same location?

Fine, you can mix smaller LRMs launchers up to the number of tubes available, so a CTPL-A1 could go 6xLRM5's.

The only concession would be to mix SRMs/streaks where you've already filled the LRM space, so the same A1 can do 2xLRM15 + 2xSRM6. The same system can be done also for SRMs, the same A1 wouldn't be able to boat 36s srms, you would be limited to 15 tubes, so SRM6+SRM4+SRM4 or SRM6+SRM6+SRM2.

And similar system should be done also to avoid 6 PPCs/6LL builds and stuff like that. Limit a certain mech to 2x 3 crit AND/OR 2 crit weapons when the rest is 1 crit limited (take stalkers, this would mean 2xPPCs + 4 ML or 2xLL + 4 ML or 1x PPC + 1xLL + 4x MLs), while certain mechs could get a bonus.. like AWS 9M or 8Q to be able to bring 3x3 crit and/OR 3x2 crit weapons (so 3 PPCs or 3 LLs + single energy slots where available or 2xLL 1x PPC).. ballast of heat, variants, chassis could be achieved in a totally different way.

[Nightcrept]

Seddrik, on 08 June 2013 - 11:29 AM, said:

You know, the replies are almost laughable. Because you guys know every reply to every situation. I know you can out run SOME missles... but with the missle speeds and trajectory, when missles get launched by multiple boats in numbers above 40 each (thats called boating btw just so you know) you won't be taking just scratches on the paint. But you guys know all this right? or did you forget? I know there can be spotters. I am not talking about that. I know for a fact that there was no spotter behind us when i posted. I swept the area and ran back through (with seismic etc) it trying to find some small place of shelter from endless missles. And if I dared to go into the open, I would get alphaed by 4+ people. But you guys know every thing already so its not use telling you all this... Interpretation - don't play a light like a light. Ok fine. I am FORCED now to play like a poptart in a light. Hang way back, put on ONE er ppc... and just sniper. How... fun.... zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz But hey you guys know the answers to everything.

If you're going to come on here sounding stupid you can expect people to respond accordingly.

Fact is that what you're describing doesn't happen unless you are too new to know what you are doing or u suck. Many of the guys talking to you have played over 5000 games and or been here since closed beta so yes they know a lot.

Especially a issue like lrm balancing we have dealt with for more then a year.



Just because you get the warning it does not mean that the mech who fired them is going to be able to hit you with them.

If you don't like the warning there isn't anything you can do about it. (most of us don't like it either.)

Use your speed effectively to help negate most of the dmg from lrms.

Terrain does work I use it in my atlai to avoid lrms. (So i can definitely do it in your light mech.)

Don't try to brawl in a light.


None of this is brain surgery.

[42and19]

1) no, lrms are still fairly worthless. Before the who fiddling began almost a month ago my average damage with an lrm boat was around 350 (this is with a treb) and a freind of mine could pull 800 in a good match. Now we are around 150 for me and 250 for him. Something is seriously wrong with the hit detection.

2) You are seeing more lrm boats now because they changed the lrms and people are experimenting. But they are still kinda ****.

3) Nothing needs to be done with the damage or firing arc or spread. Something is wrong with the hit detection. My friend runs a boat with 4 lrm 15s that can be fired simultaneously, however, it seems as if the game only registers the first 20 missiles and ignores the rest. Something is wrong with this.

4) I have noticed that the people who tend to whine the most about lrms are the ones that don't use the counters for them. AMS especially in groups can completely eliminate lrm fire. Using cover is key and possible with the current fire arch. ECM is still viable for lrm cover in many situations. Think tactics before you come on the forum and whine about a weapon being overpowered.