146 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

SixBottles, on 08 June 2013 - 01:21 AM, said:

yeah right...


GAU-8 Avenger

Gatling-Type AutoCannon
30 × 173 mm PGU-14/B Armor Piercing Incendiary
projectile weight: 15.0 oz (425 grams or 6,560 grains)
4200 rpm (70 rounds per second)
Armor penetration: 69 mm at 500 meters

Fisrt, GAU-8 is an Auto Cannon, not a Machine Gun. Second The PGU-14 is a Depleted Uranium penitrator with High Explosives added for better levels of excitement.

It is not a Bullet. And thus the GAU-8 is not a Machine Gun.

[Xeno Phalcon]

All I need to say.

[Joseph Mallan]

Boating 12 machine guns should be painful. It is boating at its pinnicle after all.
Second if The Machine Gun did its damage in one second bursts like a small laser it would be far more accurate to game balance.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 08 June 2013 - 04:12 AM.

[stjobe]

I feel like we've had this discussion before...

Joseph Mallan, on 08 June 2013 - 03:47 AM, said:

Fisrt, GAU-8 is an Auto Cannon, not a Machine Gun. Second The PGU-14 is a Depleted Uranium penitrator with High Explosives added for better levels of excitement.

It is not a Bullet. And thus the GAU-8 is not a Machine Gun.

stjobe, on 07 June 2013 - 12:05 AM, said:

In today's nomenclature, sure. But a 'mech-mounted "Machine Gun" in the BattleTech Universe is nothing at all like a "machine gun" in today's parlance. It is, in fact, what we today would call a (rotary) autocannon.

As for the BattleTech Autocannon, according to the fluff it is a development of the Rifle, which in turn is a development of modern-day main battle tank guns like the 120mm smoothbore gun on the M1A1. Funnily enough, the Rifle family of weapons have a -3 damage modifier against 'mech armour, meaning that the Light Rifle cannot damage 'mechs at all - and still the Machine Gun does 2 damage against 'mechs.

So a weapon derived from modern-day tank guns cannot damage 'mechs, but the MG can. Make of that what you will - to me that means that MGs aren't anything like what we today would call "machine guns", and any arguments based on real-life machine guns or real-life armour fails by default.

The current distinction between autocannon and machine gun has absolutely zero bearing on what's called an autocannon or machine gun in the 31st century.

Joe, I know you know enough BT lore to know the AC is a development of the Rifle, which in turn is based on modern-day tank guns. It's not a scaled-up version of what we today call an autocannon.

Likewise, what's called a MG in BattleTech doesn't seem to be a scaled-up version of what we today call a machine gun; since they're more powerful than Light Rifles (who are developed from modern tank guns).

In short, 1000-years-in-the-future-and-in-space-weapon A and B have no real connection except their name to the weapons you played with in the military.

[SixBottles]

Joseph Mallan, on 08 June 2013 - 03:47 AM, said:

Fisrt, GAU-8 is an Auto Cannon, not a Machine Gun. Second The PGU-14 is a Depleted Uranium penitrator with High Explosives added for better levels of excitement.

It is not a Bullet. And thus the GAU-8 is not a Machine Gun.

A machine gun is a fully automatic mounted or portable firearm,
Machine guns are generally categorized as submachine guns, machine guns, or autocannons.

so much to statisfy the grammar {Godwin's Law}.


...my point was, we are talking about huge metal mechanized robots.
they wont carry submashine guns. they can carry big huge mean weaponsystems.
if u are talking about mg's and mechs u dont compare em to today's handheld guns but to big machine mounted death spitters.


EDIT:

WTF? u cannot say N A Z I?
whats next?
J E W
A F R I C A N
M O S L E M
C H R I S T I A N

...give me a break -.-

Edited by SixBottles, 08 June 2013 - 04:24 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

stjobe, on 08 June 2013 - 04:17 AM, said:

I feel like we've had this discussion before...




The current distinction between autocannon and machine gun has absolutely zero bearing on what's called an autocannon or machine gun in the 31st century.

Joe, I know you know enough BT lore to know the AC is a development of the Rifle, which in turn is based on modern-day tank guns. It's not a scaled-up version of what we today call an autocannon.

Likewise, what's called a MG in BattleTech doesn't seem to be a scaled-up version of what we today call a machine gun; since they're more powerful than Light Rifles (who are developed from modern tank guns).

In short, 1000-years-in-the-future-and-in-space-weapon A and B have no real connection except their name to the weapons you played with in the military.

Even by CBT standards a Machine gun is 20 mm or less Jobe(you have even posted the list IIRC). It is not the 30mm GAU-8. I will nit-pick that till armchair soldiers know the difference. It may be a fine line, but I am Irish enough to hold it till my last breath.

[SixBottles]

Joseph Mallan, on 08 June 2013 - 04:28 AM, said:

Even by CBT standards a Machine gun is 20 mm or less Jobe(you have even posted the list IIRC). It is not the 30mm GAU-8. I will nit-pick that till armchair soldiers know the difference. It may be a fine line, but I am Irish enough to hold it till my last breath.

so because today a 30mm GAU-8 is not technically a MG. u dont want a MG buff?

because right now it feels more like PGI implemented this thing:

Edited by SixBottles, 08 June 2013 - 05:09 AM.

[Liberator]

Please do not give Gingerbang any more attention, at first i thought this must be a troll thread he has cooked up, but i seems he really considers mg's decent weapons against internals, and that a 1,5 tonne weapon that can explode should be worse than a 0.5 tonne with unlimited ammo. He also uses "anti-infantry" and "lead bullets" as arguments about game balance.


Dedicated members have used time and resources to investigate the mg http://mwomercs.com/...04#entry2425804 and it's effect and this is the reply they get from Gingerbang:

"It is interesting that you did this, but i find these results about 80% irrelevant, unless you also test it in a team environment where you have 1 mech using ac20's or something along that line stripping armor for you. MG's look weak because they suck against armor. They rock against internals. People need to start using teamwork and stop calling what is supposed to be the least effective weapon in the game "weak.""

From this we can conclude that he has no idea what he is speaking about, and it's just opinions, his very personal opinions.
He has some other topics and replies that seem sane, so i cannot say if this is a elaborate troll or not, but just don't reply to him...

[General Taskeen]

The moral of the story is: PGI, Please do buff/re-program MG's.

[Joseph Mallan]

SixBottles, on 08 June 2013 - 05:06 AM, said:

so because today a 30mm GAU-8 is not technically a MG. u dont want a MG buff?

because right now it feels more like PGI implemented this thing:

No sir. I don't want people confusing a Present day AutoCannon with an In game Machine gun.

MWO Machine Gun should be equal to a small laser for damage, rate of fire and cool down. That would put this game's Machine Gun exactly where it belongs. Balanced v its energy counterpart.

[General Taskeen]

Joseph Mallan, on 08 June 2013 - 07:43 AM, said:

No sir. I don't want people confusing a Present day AutoCannon with an In game Machine gun.

MWO Machine Gun should be equal to a small laser for damage, rate of fire and cool down. That would put this game's Machine Gun exactly where it belongs. Balanced v its energy counterpart.

Hopefully, otherwise the rest of the "MG" family of BT weapons are going to be true turds. And turds come in triplets. The HMG, after all, is 3 damage, same as SL.

[Joseph Mallan]

Heavy Machine Gun isn't for another 15-20 years... And could be 4 damage as far as I am concerned.

[General Taskeen]

Joseph Mallan, on 08 June 2013 - 07:51 AM, said:

Heavy Machine Gun isn't for another 15-20 years... And could be 4 damage as far as I am concerned.

Right, but you do realize PGI isn't going to wait 15-20 years to add things right? Just saying the MG should be re-featured so LMG's and HMG's don't also end up being total turds of weapons.

[Joseph Mallan]

Lets worry about the MG first. get it set, then Nerf/Buff the Light/Heavy accordingly. seriously it isn't that much a problem either make the MG equal to or slightly weaker than a small laser. In DpS Cyclic rate, the works. it's not a big problem. I don't read a lot of complaints on the small lasers performance, MGs are right in that arena.

[Zerberus]

I don`t use MGs, and never have, even in CBT. They never really ofered anything a SL couldn`t do cheaper.

But I LOVE them in MWO. nothing is more hilarious thad being circled by a spider dakkaing himself insane and slowly plodding away, typing "Cut it out, that tickles" in /all chat

[Joseph Mallan]

Zerberus, on 08 June 2013 - 08:29 AM, said:

I don`t use MGs, and never have, even in CBT. They never really ofered anything a SL couldn`t do cheaper.

But I LOVE them in MWO. nothing is more hilarious thad being circled by a spider dakkaing himself insane and slowly plodding away, typing "Cut it out, that tickles" in /all chat

I've wanted to do this for so long. But I type really slow!

[Malora Sidewinder]

GingerBang, on 06 June 2013 - 07:24 AM, said:

a machine doesn't do {Richard Cameron} to a solid steel wall. Why do you think the US Army has anti-tank artillery, and not just 6 guys with M249's.

as a soldier, i must point out how incorrect you are.

one of our premier anti-tank weapons is the GAU8 avenger, mounted on the a10 warthog. it's very similar in size and ability to MGs mech mounted in BT universe. the difference is that the gau8 can gut an aircraft carrier in just about a single strafe.

each bullet is 12 inches long and weighs more than a pound. 2-3 rounds to the bulb of a tank will disable it. this includes the modern abrams.

that said, for gameplay reasons in BT machine guns NEED to be terrible.
if they were good they'd be broken. how would you like to see a 6 machine gun jagermech kicking the crap out of a stalker in a brawl?
if BT mgs were like real life ones, a 6 mg jager would basically insta-kill a stalker.

Edited by Malora Sidewinder, 08 June 2013 - 11:06 AM.

[Gaan Cathal]

Joseph Mallan, on 08 June 2013 - 04:28 AM, said:

Even by CBT standards a Machine gun is 20 mm or less Jobe(you have even posted the list IIRC). It is not the 30mm GAU-8. I will nit-pick that till armchair soldiers know the difference. It may be a fine line, but I am Irish enough to hold it till my last breath.

If we assume the largest calibre mentioned is the thing to define equivalence by, at 20mm it's a Vulcan.
If we assume the weight is the thing to define equivalence by, it's a Gau-8.

Both of those are currently defined as rotary cannons. That has exactly zero ******* bearing on what they're called in BTech, being as that is 80's sci-fi written by people with a rudimentary understanding of military technology at best. What they describe when talking about mech-mounted MGs are modern rotary cannon, more or less ("gatling" and "light autogun" for example).

And far, far more importantly - the game needs a lightweight ballistic that's not more dangerous to the carrying mech than to the enemy. The BTech MG is an ultra-short-ranged AC/2, not a paintchipper.

Malora Sidewinder, on 08 June 2013 - 11:05 AM, said:

that said, for gameplay reasons in BT machine guns NEED to be terrible.
if they were good they'd be broken. how would you like to see a 6 machine gun jagermech kicking the crap out of a stalker in a brawl?

The equivalent of a 6-SLAS Jaeger would be so terrifying that it's worth consigning any light and most medium mechs with ballistic hardpoints to the scrapheap? Really?

Edited by Gaan Cathal, 08 June 2013 - 11:09 AM.

[Roland]

Joseph Mallan, on 08 June 2013 - 03:47 AM, said:

Fisrt, GAU-8 is an Auto Cannon, not a Machine Gun. Second The PGU-14 is a Depleted Uranium penitrator with High Explosives added for better levels of excitement.

It is not a Bullet. And thus the GAU-8 is not a Machine Gun.

What are you talking about?
The PGU is just a round that uses DU as the heavy metal component. What exactly makes this "not a bullet"?

[stjobe]

Joseph Mallan, on 08 June 2013 - 03:47 AM, said:

Second The PGU-14 is a Depleted Uranium penitrator with High Explosives added for better levels of excitement.

It is not a Bullet. And thus the GAU-8 is not a Machine Gun.

Looks like a bullet to me; and where's the high explosives?



It's usually used in a 5:1 mix with the PGU-13 HEI round, but AFAICT the PGU-14 is just a sub-calibre depleted uranium penetrator - i.e. a bullet.