146 replies to this topic

[stjobe]

verybad, on 07 June 2013 - 09:36 AM, said:

MGs aren't an anti-armor weapon

In the BattleTech Universe they are, or they wouldn't do damage to 'mechs.
Since they do, and they also get a bonus versus infantry, they're at the very least general purpose.

However regardless of what they are in real life or in the BattleTech Universe, in this game they need to be anti-armour or they have no use whatsoever.

[Pinselborste]

created a thread with an idea to make the mg a usefull weapon http://mwomercs.com/...eds-a-redesign/ hopefully it will get some attention.

[Fate 6]

GingerBang, on 06 June 2013 - 07:33 AM, said:

ballistic mechs have AC 2's, 5's, 10's, 20's, and Gauss to work with. What game are you playing? Sounds like ****.

The Spider, Flea, and Cicada would like a word with you. And small mech with multiple ballistics can't make use of any of those.

[GingerBang]

Monky, on 06 June 2013 - 08:22 AM, said:

Actually, in battletech, it would be called a primitive mech scale machinegun. An Autocannon is a completely different beast.

Part of this entire shitstorm is that people can't seperate what 'we' consider a machinegun/cannon from what battletech considers a machinegun/cannon.

A modern 120 mm Abrams tank, for example, would deal an AC2's worth of damage to mech grade ablative armor. Given 90 meters effective range for a machinegun, which is equally effective as that, rough weight/size comparisons, etc, the GAU8 is about as practical a fit for 'machinegun' that we have to compare to.

Even battletech considered MG's anti-infantry, and it is implied that they use lead rounds as well. Lead vs steel, steel wins. MG's already destroy exposed components, i don't understand why everyone thinks they need to dominate. If anything, maybe PGI should consider tuning other weapons down a notch, making MG's stronger on a relative sense.

[Deathlike]

GingerBang, on 07 June 2013 - 07:20 PM, said:

Even battletech considered MG's anti-infantry, and it is implied that they use lead rounds as well. Lead vs steel, steel wins. MG's already destroy exposed components, i don't understand why everyone thinks they need to dominate. If anything, maybe PGI should consider tuning other weapons down a notch, making MG's stronger on a relative sense.

No.

Destroying the component section is FAR more effective than stripping it. If you destroy a side torso.. you effectively rid of the arm on that side. If say you were facing a BJ-1X, even if the mech didn't have an XL engine, reducing half of its effective firepower is better than stripping the DHS and (possibly) the solo medium laser on that torso side.

Edited by Deathlike, 07 June 2013 - 09:40 PM.

[JP Josh]

Deathlike, on 06 June 2013 - 11:35 PM, said:

Because, to use the MG effectively... you need to do the following:

1) Continue to expose yourself - and this is almost always a bad idea, especially in a light mech like the Spider-5K. Lasers fire for its duration and you can leave to avoid being shot back until the weapon+heat is dealt with. MGs need to keep hitting the target to actually reach its stated DPS, despite generating no heat.

2) Ammo explosions - MG ammo depletes at a far slower rate than any other ammo. If you get an ammo explosion, it's pretty much a death. Each ton of ammo is 80 pts of potentially explosive damage... slowly being consumed 10 bullets/sec which only reduces the damage by .8/sec (which is really really slow).

3) Not enough damage - It's still worse than a Small Laser in every comparable way. This doesn't even factor the minimum of 1 ton of ammo required to feed the MG.

you missed the should be part.

you should only have to expose your self to fire as long as a small lazer should take (granted this would provide higher dps but at a higher risk. lazers dont run out of ammo and energy users dont have ammo explosions.

ammo explosions are part of a ballance designe store it properly in a least dmging spot you mostly dont get hit in.

we just need to play with the settings more and itle be right.

[Gaan Cathal]

GingerBang, on 07 June 2013 - 07:20 PM, said:

Even battletech considered MG's anti-infantry, and it is implied that they use lead rounds as well. Lead vs steel, steel wins. MG's already destroy exposed components, i don't understand why everyone thinks they need to dominate. If anything, maybe PGI should consider tuning other weapons down a notch, making MG's stronger on a relative sense.

The Battletech mech-mounted 'machine gun' is a 30mm rotary cannon. It does the same damage to Mechs as an AC/2.

For the record, the Gau-8 is a 30mm rotary cannon. It can penetrate armour quite happily.

And, far, far more importantly than the above. There are mechs that require a viable low-weight ballistic weapon in the game. There currently isn't one. The machinegun is in the game, and should be. The simple route is to, y'know, make it one.

Problem is, it'll probably core an Atlas in 3s.

[Deathlike]

Gaan Cathal, on 07 June 2013 - 11:17 PM, said:

Problem is, it'll probably core an Atlas in 3s.

Faster than the 3 second Jenner?

Even with the mythical 6MG Spider?

[Gaan Cathal]

Deathlike, on 07 June 2013 - 11:26 PM, said:

Faster than the 3 second Jenner?

Even with the mythical 6MG Spider?

Assuming a 1s relocation between targets a single 6MG Spider could take out an entire lance of Altai in 15s flat if the MG was buffed even slightly. It would be a holocaust of terror that would make the prospect of even TruDubJenners seem welcome.

[Deathlike]

Gaan Cathal, on 07 June 2013 - 11:30 PM, said:

Assuming a 1s relocation between targets a single 6MG Spider could take out an entire lance of Altai in 15s flat if the MG was buffed even slightly. It would be a holocaust of terror that would make the prospect of even TruDubJenners seem welcome.

I await our Spider-Jenner overlords.

[Gaan Cathal]

Deathlike, on 07 June 2013 - 11:36 PM, said:

I await our Spider-Jenner overlords.

Don't forget the Flea is coming. The Fire-Ant variant is like a Spider-Jenner hybrid. It'll probably core Atlai in 2.5s with that sort of firepower.

[Sephlock]

Maybe he meant a stock Atlas ;P?

[Gaan Cathal]

A stock Altas of any game-present variant has 28 rear armour, plus 62 internal hp.

A volley of 6MLAS from a JR7-F of that particular build does 5x6=30 damage.

It does this over the course of 1s.

Thus, after 1s has passed, the Atlas is reduced to 0 armour and 60 internal hp and the MLAS are cooling.

After 2s the MLAS are still cooling, and the Atlas has not lost any more hitpoints.

After 3s the MLAS are still cooling, and the Atlas has not lost any more hitpoints. {MAGIC 3s NUMBER!}

After 4s the MLAS have finished cooling and begin to do damage again, 5x6=30 over 1s.

After 5s the MLAS have done a further 30 damage, reducing the internal hp to 30.

After 6s the MLAS are still cooling, and the Atlas has not lost any more hitpoints.

After 7s the MLAS are still cooling, and the Atlas has not lost any more hitpoints.

After 8s the MLAS have finished cooling and begin to do damage again, 5x6=30 over 1s.

After 9s the MLAS have done a further 30 damage, reducing the internal hp to 0.



That's 9s minimum to reduce a stock Atlas to 0 internal core hp. This would be true if heat were 0 for MLAS. If mechs actually die at -1 hp, which there's some evidence for, then it takes another 3.01s to kill it.

This also assumes Fast Fire isn't specced, which reduces the cooldowns by 5% - not enough to break that 3s window by a long shot.

Note that because of the peculiarity of the rear armour points on a stock Atlas in relation to 6MLAS alpha, it would actually take (almost) as long to kill an unarmoured Atlas, in that it would take the same number of volleys, but die 1/15th of a second into the last volley's duration.

It still would remain unaffected by heat.




Clearly, MGs would be terrifying if they were buffed, and the people telling us this know better than maths does. I mean, I just proved maths was completely wrong about how fast a Jenner can core an Atlas!




Note: And for the record, no a dual-SRM4 build doesn't frontload damage enough to speed up the kill below (or even close to) 3s.

Edited by Gaan Cathal, 08 June 2013 - 12:03 AM.

[Kazma]

Machine Guns are bad, I haven't played another Mechwarrior Game before

[JudgeDeathCZ]

GingerBang, on 06 June 2013 - 07:24 AM, said:

Why do you think the US Army has anti-tank artillery, and not just 6 guys with M249's.

This reminds me how marines are able to take down Battlecruiser in SC/SC2

[SixBottles]

GingerBang, on 06 June 2013 - 07:24 AM, said:

a machine doesn't do {Richard Cameron} to a solid steel wall. Why do you think the US Army has anti-tank artillery, and not just 6 guys with M249's.

yeah right...


GAU-8 Avenger

Gatling-Type AutoCannon
30 × 173 mm PGU-14/B Armor Piercing Incendiary
projectile weight: 15.0 oz (425 grams or 6,560 grains)
4200 rpm (70 rounds per second)
Armor penetration: 69 mm at 500 meters

Edited by SixBottles, 08 June 2013 - 01:24 AM.

[Karazyr]

no! buff them more! they need to do as much damage as a rapid fire ac20!! its cannon doncha know!

[MustrumRidcully]

Gaan Cathal, on 08 June 2013 - 12:03 AM, said:

A stock Altas of any game-present variant has 28 rear armour, plus 62 internal hp.

A volley of 6MLAS from a JR7-F of that particular build does 5x6=30 damage.

It does this over the course of 1s.

Thus, after 1s has passed, the Atlas is reduced to 0 armour and 60 internal hp and the MLAS are cooling.

After 2s the MLAS are still cooling, and the Atlas has not lost any more hitpoints.

After 3s the MLAS are still cooling, and the Atlas has not lost any more hitpoints. {MAGIC 3s NUMBER!}

After 4s the MLAS have finished cooling and begin to do damage again, 5x6=30 over 1s.

After 5s the MLAS have done a further 30 damage, reducing the internal hp to 30.

After 6s the MLAS are still cooling, and the Atlas has not lost any more hitpoints.

After 7s the MLAS are still cooling, and the Atlas has not lost any more hitpoints.

After 8s the MLAS have finished cooling and begin to do damage again, 5x6=30 over 1s.

After 9s the MLAS have done a further 30 damage, reducing the internal hp to 0.



That's 9s minimum to reduce a stock Atlas to 0 internal core hp. This would be true if heat were 0 for MLAS. If mechs actually die at -1 hp, which there's some evidence for, then it takes another 3.01s to kill it.

This also assumes Fast Fire isn't specced, which reduces the cooldowns by 5% - not enough to break that 3s window by a long shot.

Note that because of the peculiarity of the rear armour points on a stock Atlas in relation to 6MLAS alpha, it would actually take (almost) as long to kill an unarmoured Atlas, in that it would take the same number of volleys, but die 1/15th of a second into the last volley's duration.

It still would remain unaffected by heat.




Clearly, MGs would be terrifying if they were buffed, and the people telling us this know better than maths does. I mean, I just proved maths was completely wrong about how fast a Jenner can core an Atlas!




Note: And for the record, no a dual-SRM4 build doesn't frontload damage enough to speed up the kill below (or even close to) 3s.

That was always the most ridicilious thing about the 3 second Jenner. There was basically no weapon setup a Jenner could carry that would allow it to deal the necessary damage in 3 seconds, simply because most weapons the Jenner can carry had a longer effective cycle time then 3 seconds.

The only energy weapon that could pull it of was the PPC. But try to put 4.5 PPCs in a Jenner...

[LonestarrSB]

I think machine guns are actually in a good place. Of course 1 machine gun is useless but that's not supposed to be how its used. I run 3 Machine guns and 2 ppc's on my Hunchback. I consistantly get more than 500 dmg in matches

[SixBottles]

LonestarrSB, on 08 June 2013 - 03:26 AM, said:

I think machine guns are actually in a good place. Of course 1 machine gun is useless but that's not supposed to be how its used. I run 3 Machine guns and 2 ppc's on my Hunchback. I consistantly get more than 500 dmg in matches

yeah, i run six MG's and two LPLAS on my JM6-DD... many times i get 400+ dmg... but the thing is... most of the actual damage comes from the DUAL PULSE LASERS

try your hunchback without the ppc's... and check up how much damage u'll do with only the mg's... it wont be much.

Edited by SixBottles, 08 June 2013 - 03:46 AM.