96 replies to this topic

[DocBach]

Right now the interaction between ECM and Beagle Active Probe have very little to do with gaining or witholding information, they are just linear counters and taxes of each other to employ guided missiles.

We have recently received seismic sensors, which do in fact provide information, but we still lack that capability in Beagle Active Probe, which is suppose to serve as an active, probing sensor.

Suggestion:

Give the Beagle Active Probe similar capability to the seismic sensor; within a 120 meter bubble around the probe the Beagle should be able to detect enemy 'Mechs regardless of line of sight. The difference between seismic and Beagle could be that Beagle can actually allow the sensor targets that the Beagle detects to be targeted. This allows a Beagle Active Probe scout to actually relay hard intel to their team mates.

Further, the Beagle Active Probe also has a probing ability in the expanded Double Blind rules of Battletech in which it can view an opposing 'Mechs record sheet and see all of its information. This could be simulated in MWO by allowing a 'Mech equipped with Beagle Active Probe to scan enemy targets within its 120m radius and see a more detailed readout, that could show the location of items, what equipment it has such as an XL engine, heat level, ect. ECM would shroud a 'Mech from Beagle's ability to gain this information.

The caveat is though Beagle can nullify ECM's denial of missile locks, ECM and its bubble protects their users from being detected by Beagle's increased sensor ability to detect enemies out of line of sight and blocks it's ability to probe ECM units in line of sight it is countering.

Many of the modules such as the consumables have a high-end version and a low-end equivalent available, but the information warfare pieces do not. By giving some abilities to Beagle Active Probe, Seismic would still have a place as it has longer detection range, and is not blocked by ECM. Beagle itself would have its own shortcomings with reduced range, the ability to be blocked by ECM, by having a critical slot and weight requirement, and the ability to be destroyed.

Making the suggested change to Beagle would give players the ability to participate in information warfare by having equipment available that isn't prohibited by massive GXP costs, and increase the ability to provide the role for actual gathering and sharing of information (much like ECM shares protection) which the advertised Information Warfare pillar is sorely lacking.

Edited by DocBach, 15 September 2014 - 04:34 AM.

[Kaio-Kerensky x10]

DocBach, on 09 June 2013 - 10:38 AM, said:

Right now the interaction between ECM and Beagle Active Probe have nothing to do with gaining or witholding information, they are just counters and taxes to employ missiles.

We have recently received seismic sensors, which do in fact provide information, but we still lack that capability in Beagle Active Probe, which is suppose to serve as an active, probing sensor.

BAP also increases your sensor range, can detect shut-down mechs, and gives you an information readout on enemies faster.

[DocBach]

Right now, the only way to gain information for the information warfare pillar of this game can only be done with modules that cost more than most 'Mechs, and cannot be blocked, as both the UAV and Seismic sensors cannot be blocked.

Beagle Active Probe is suppose to have information gathering ability beyond the basic rulesets ability to detect hidden or shut down targets, and this information gathering ability is suppose to be countered by ECM. Further, the utility of Beagle by itself compared to ECM by itself is unbalanced. If ECM does not present itself, the function BAP serves is limited beyond allowing Streak boats to target shut down 'Mechs. Allowing Beagle the information gathering ability it has from expanded Battletech rulesets would make it much more useful in its own right.

[General Taskeen]

ECM needs the missile anti-lock turned off, with the caveat that it keeps the "longer time to lock" ability as has been the case in pretty much every Mech title. All unnecessary, hard counter, big fish balancing removed. Then ECM and BAP can be the Info Warfare tools they are supposed to be.

Edited by General Taskeen, 09 June 2013 - 11:10 AM.

[DocBach]

Though I agree that ECM's hard counter ability is a bad mechanic, I'm more concerned how Information Warfare revolves around expensive modules that have no counters rather than the traditional Beagle Active Probe, which is suppose to be countered by ECM. Right now Beagle counters ECM's anti-missile function which is somewhat canon if you equate ECM's lock defeat with Ghost Target mode, but we are missing Beagle's stand alone function to provide information, which is suppose to be blocked by ECM.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

I've long been an advocate of letting the BAP detect target signatures regardless of LOS inside its 150m range (or whatever the number is for detecting shut-down mechs).

[Deathlike]

BAP stopped being information gatherer since it is a literal hard counter for ECM.

People still make the mistake that it decreases lock times... it does not. Only ECM increases lock times.

[Dantiger]

the BAP should be able to "target" all enemies on the mechs line of sight and inside the bubble. your mech will target independently from the BAP, but every ally mech will be able to target the enemies on your line of sigh. then the ECM job will be to counter that

[DocBach]

Dantiger, on 09 June 2013 - 02:58 PM, said:

the BAP should be able to "target" all enemies on the mechs line of sight and inside the bubble. your mech will target independently from the BAP, but every ally mech will be able to target the enemies on your line of sigh. then the ECM job will be to counter that

I think this is actually a better way to implement C3 - C3 is an information sharing network

[Unbound Inferno]

Dantiger, on 09 June 2013 - 02:58 PM, said:

the BAP should be able to "target" all enemies on the mechs line of sight and inside the bubble. your mech will target independently from the BAP, but every ally mech will be able to target the enemies on your line of sigh. then the ECM job will be to counter that

I like the direction of this idea.

But perhaps rework it a bit?

Have it so ally mechs can target any enemy mech that is detected within a short range like 250m for indirect support. I would think have it swap modes like an ECM - so when it tries to counter an ECM it can't do that at the same time

[DocBach]

Unbound Inferno, on 10 June 2013 - 05:21 PM, said:

I like the direction of this idea.

But perhaps rework it a bit?

Have it so ally mechs can target any enemy mech that is detected within a short range like 250m for indirect support. I would think have it swap modes like an ECM - so when it tries to counter an ECM it can't do that at the same time

Perhaps the active radar mode could be called "Active" and the ability to counter ECM or gain additional information on an enemy could be called.... "Probe"

[Dantiger]

the thing is that BAP is supposed to be op, and ECM a way to make it less op
but the way the battles works now, the size of the map, and etc don't help the BAP at all

Edited by Dantiger, 10 June 2013 - 07:36 PM.

[DocBach]

Beagle and ECM are suppose to work as yin and yang, sort of, at least in the expanded rulesets;

the Beagle Active Probe can detect hidden units outside of line of sight that aren't shut down or purposefully camouflaged;

the ECM blocks this ability

ECM can project ghost targets which flood sensor screens with false targets and makes it harder to obtain targeting;

Beagle can see through the false targets

Right now we have Beagle countering ECM's target lock defeat, but Beagle does not have a function that ECM can block, which is ironic as ECM's original and prime function is to block other electronics like the Beagle.

Edited by DocBach, 10 June 2013 - 07:47 PM.

[StalaggtIKE]

BAP and ECM are nothing but on and off switches for guided missiles:

• BAP > ECM = much LRM
  
• ECM > BAP (and TAG) = few LRM

You are correct in that they really have little to do with information warfare. Every since Seismic came out, I've been thinking..., this is what BAP should have been. Completely agree.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 11 June 2013 - 04:02 AM.

[DocBach]

We need something to let us actually participate in gaining information without a module slot - and the fact that its range would be shorter and ECM would defeat its ability to do so would give it less utility then seismic, hence justify why it could be bought with just c-bill in comparison to seismic's XP requirement.

[Omigir]

SO, Doc, you are suggesting BAP give you similar but less effective effects as several modules in one? Longer range, 360 targeting, seismic sensors?

though I do like the advanced information option to see where components are placed like heat sinks, ammo and the like.. make shooting for ammunition explosions so much easier

[Gaan Cathal]

DocBach, on 09 June 2013 - 02:22 PM, said:

Though I agree that ECM's hard counter ability is a bad mechanic, I'm more concerned how Information Warfare revolves around expensive modules that have no counters rather than the traditional Beagle Active Probe, which is suppose to be countered by ECM. Right now Beagle counters ECM's anti-missile function which is somewhat canon if you equate ECM's lock defeat with Ghost Target mode, but we are missing Beagle's stand alone function to provide information, which is suppose to be blocked by ECM.

Modules are MWO's equivalent of MW4's coolantflush/poptarting. A brain-dead mechanic implemented by someone who had no idea what the implications of it was for the game and that is basically unsalvageable because they can't be rectified without a unconscionably massive overhaul.

Making a bunch of very powerful gamechanging equipment in a MW game and not requiring critslots or tonnage for it displays a basic lack of understanding of how cost-limit balancing works.

[DocBach]

Omigir, on 12 June 2013 - 07:55 AM, said:

SO, Doc, you are suggesting BAP give you similar but less effective effects as several modules in one? Longer range, 360 targeting, seismic sensors?

though I do like the advanced information option to see where components are placed like heat sinks, ammo and the like.. make shooting for ammunition explosions so much easier

Yes, pretty much - like a poor man's module package, that would be blocked out by ECM so it wouldn't be nearly as powerful as the modules which have no counters. Modules also cost GXP which is a different kind of currency that can only be accrued by play time so it makes sense that it would be more powerful than a regular item that just cost c-bills.

[Iacov]

BAP should be a long range "detection help" whilst seismic is close range

if BAP is just another seismic sensor, you only encourage fast and/or close range mehcs

[DocBach]

Iacov, on 12 June 2013 - 09:00 AM, said:

BAP should be a long range "detection help" whilst seismic is close range

if BAP is just another seismic sensor, you only encourage fast and/or close range mehcs

BAP is suppose to be a reconnaissance tool, in which fast 'Mechs are suppose to play a role as scouts, so if it encourages that kind of 'Mech rather than just serving as an on switch for missiles, then its doing its job.