91 replies to this topic

[idle crow]

aniviron, on 09 June 2013 - 05:51 PM, said:

Competitive players can still poptart, it's just done on the way down now.

You have to jump further up to fire on the way down. Back in MW4 days that's actually what we call a poptart. A bad jump sniper who over exposed himself.

Interesting the debate on what competitive teams will use. I would assume we revert back to the heavy mechs we used before Jump Jets got fixed? People seem to forget not to many patches ago Jump Jets didn't work worth a crap.

[Soy]

LL, personally, I definitely shoot extremely close to landing or even while touching down post-patch.

People don't really give much thought to the idea of setting up shots with JJs, rather than simply using the JJ to actually take the shot itself. In other words, JJs can get you into positions or angles ala shot creation, doesn't necessarily have to be a snipe or a poptart type of 'end-all' godmode shots. A good example of this is Highlanders popping to get the range needed to touch lights, or to brawl while soaking multiples.

The advantage isn't always taken in the air. Sometimes being in the air is the setup, that's best way I can explain it man.

There are so many 3D builds that aren't trip ppc or dual gauss that you can still hop around in and be pretty effective. People need to learn to take the poptart skills they got the hang of, and incorporate that into other things; doesn't mean you have to completely change everything, maybe the build, or maybe a diff variant, etc.

Edited by Soy, 09 June 2013 - 06:03 PM.

[p00k]

idle crow, on 09 June 2013 - 06:00 PM, said:

You have to jump further up to fire on the way down. Back in MW4 days that's actually what we call a poptart. A bad jump sniper who over exposed himself.

this. i suspect people who say they weren't affected by the shake never really used the 3D to its full utility

certainly having the vertical mobility is useful for maneuvering, as well as shifting damage if enemies do close on you, but the ability to project offensive power downrange while remaining largely unmolested has changed dramatically. you can still jumpsnipe, but you'll be taking a lot more return fire than you were before (or if you're taking the same amount of return fire, you were doing it wrong in the first place)

[Vercinaigh]

JSparrowist, on 09 June 2013 - 12:58 PM, said:

I stopped reading after "I'm sorry that you suck so much that it doesn't matter what build you use."

Ohh how I wish MWO had a 1v1 mode. Until that happens, keep on with the assumptions.

You're not even on your own house's tourney team, shut up.

PEEFsmash, on 09 June 2013 - 01:08 PM, said:

This is the very-harshly-said truth.

The especially important part is that competitive players don't use cheese builds to become good. We will use whatever build a low or mid-level player uses better than that player. We will even take that low or mid-level player's build all the way up to the top Elo levels. However, at some point, you need to get tiny edges over your opponents, and this is why the best players use the best builds. Once you play competitive 8s vs the best players in the game, giving up even a teensie tiny advantage is a mistake, so we don't do it.

If Elo was public I (or any other top competitive player) would prove this to you by making a new account, using whatever honorific, suboptimal build that some guy used in some book 20 years ago that you can throw at me, and take it to the highest Elo, smacking down mid-level players using "boating" or "sniper" or "cheese" builds all along the way.
Having a mediocre build or an amazing build just DOESN'T MATTER when you can't aim or position yourself properly. Blaming competitive players for carrying themselves to the top with cheese builds is just an attempt to make lower level players feel better about themselves. Are there players who weren't that good, but improved slightly because they used a good build? Sure, they improved a bit, but it isn't like top players tremble at the sight of some PPC poptart that they've never heard of before.

I'm more scared of Soy's 6 Small Pulse Laser Awesome than a no-name's 3PPC 1 Gauss Highlander.

Completely agree'd, can't have said it better myself, just so damn frustrated anymore.

p00k, on 09 June 2013 - 02:17 PM, said:

when winning is all that matters, every advantage will be exploited, every imbalance will be exaggerated, and "good" is just as useless as "bad" if it's not the "best".

before the jj nerf, if you had target info on your enemy, you only had to jump just enough to get your crosshairs on target and your weapons clear of obstacles. now, you have to jump enough so that you have a split second after you cut the burn for your reticule to stabilize, then another split second to line up your shot. for practical purposes this often means exposing your entire mech rather than the top third of your torso, and using the majority of your jj burn rather than less than half, meaning you can't jj twice in rapid succession

the 3D still has utility given how recent the jj nerf was, but when a better option comes around, it will be replaced. much as stalkers have begun to replace highlanders in the assault world, and much as highlanders replaced brawler DDC's before them.

thanks for speaking up p00k, people just have no clue wtf they are talking about, at all, only in their 4mans of awesomsauce.

Soy, on 09 June 2013 - 02:32 PM, said:

JSparrow, I can answer that for you.

Cuz after some point, you just don't give a **** how you "appear" on a forum to some moron. Personally I don't know when that occured, I'm guessing probably day 1 of playing this game.

Here's the situation: you're trying to fight against the torrential flood of morons. I don't doubt that there are people whos sole goal in MWO is to be a socialite, but, reality is somebody has to step up and start talking over all these ******* lemmings.

Why don't you join TS and come chat and have some fun and casually kill some people; see if we're all egomaniacal hipsters, or just players who have played a lot and are getting sick and tired of ******* trying to steer the game into a dumpster fire. There's lots of cool people playing this game. I have only met a few truly immature individuals, not counting the forums.

Exactly, I'm just so tired of all the clowns who barely understand half the mechanics in this game trying to dictate balance in this game. do I understand some things ruin pug play and ow elo and they need some quality of Life fixes? Sure, but the **** that has been happening has absolutely got to end.

p00k, on 09 June 2013 - 06:14 PM, said:

this. i suspect people who say they weren't affected by the shake never really used the 3D to its full utility

certainly having the vertical mobility is useful for maneuvering, as well as shifting damage if enemies do close on you, but the ability to project offensive power downrange while remaining largely unmolested has changed dramatically. you can still jumpsnipe, but you'll be taking a lot more return fire than you were before (or if you're taking the same amount of return fire, you were doing it wrong in the first place)

Yep, pretty much, in fact really you can still jump snipe, it's just sickening and you're better off with harder hitting non JJ'ing snipers anyways,no balance was had here, just swung in a different direction while simultaneously removing a item from play due to horrible implementation. to be honest they should instead of looked on how to make JJ's boost brawlers like it does snipers, not that damn hard.

[Victor Morson]

p00k, on 09 June 2013 - 06:14 PM, said:

this.  i suspect people who say they weren't affected by the shake never really used the 3D to its full utility

certainly having the vertical mobility is useful for maneuvering, as well as shifting damage if enemies do close on you, but the ability to project offensive power downrange while remaining largely unmolested has changed dramatically.  you can still jumpsnipe, but you'll be taking a lot more return fire than you were before (or if you're taking the same amount of return fire, you were doing it wrong in the first place)

It definitely impacted things and I am entirely alright with jump sniping still being viable - in particular on the 3D.  It requires far more skill now to execute, and as far as I'm concerned, adding skill requirements is usually a good thing.

I'd rather them make things like poptarting more difficult than make it impossible, and that's right where we're at.  I would however endorse a reduction in shake for light & medium 'mechs.

Edited by Victor Morson, 09 June 2013 - 07:51 PM.

[Malora Sidewinder]

The Cheese, on 09 June 2013 - 05:57 PM, said:

CRAAAAAWLING IIIIIN MY SKIIIIIIN!

The Cheese, on 09 June 2013 - 05:57 PM, said:

CRAAAAAWLING IIIIIN MY SKIIIIIIN!

THESE WOUNDS... THEY WILL... NOT HEUHLLL!!!

[Deathlike]

The 3D is still viable... it simply requires more skill.

So, it would be nice if people stopped saying that JJs are "skill-less" since they require a lot more of it than they used to. All I ask for is less cockpit shake (or removal of it) and be done with it.

Edited by Deathlike, 09 June 2013 - 09:31 PM.

[Unabatedtuna]

Even not using jumpjets on my cataphracts, i feel it has an advantage that the Jaeger doesnt. the ability to shoot left to right and up down with the arms at a much wider angle.

[NachoFoot]

Unabatedtuna, on 09 June 2013 - 09:41 PM, said:

Even not using jumpjets on my cataphracts, i feel it has an advantage that the Jaeger doesnt. the ability to shoot left to right and up down with the arms at a much wider angle.

I've played all three main heavy mechs (dragon not included b/c it sucks). My skill rate in MWO is decently high.

Being that as it may, my favorite mech with the highest damage and kills per game ratio is the Cataphract. However, the programmers have added an ELO multiplier to the Cataphract based upon its legendary CTF-3D cheese builds. My Merc guild has noticed the same thing with the Highlander. While your k/d ratio may go up, your win ratio will go down.

[LordBraxton]

my 3d is carrying 2UAC5 and 4 Mlas and running 86.6 kph

he is doing quite well

but my 1-x is just as fast and carries 4 PPCs

and ridge humps like a pro

[Kaldor]

"Kentucky Fried Marik"

I had to laugh....

I dont really care about the tournament scene. We tried some 8man, and its fun, but my unit is like most casual units, everyone circlejerking around trying to get ready, instead of just playing. Its hard to get a consistent team going when you cant get everyone on the same page. Its a huge turn off, Id rather PUG, duo, or 4 man because I just simply dont have the time I used have to for video games. My ELO is probably somewhere in the middle, so pretty average. I understand the tactics, how to move, and where you need to be to get your shot. I dont see the poptart nerf as a big deal, and Soy brings up a GREAT point about how the JJs help create a shot, not give you a free pass for a shot. I still play my Highlanders moreso because I think flying through the air with a 90 tonner is f_cking cool sh_t and using it to enhance my survivability or get me in place to take a shot is great. Definitely doesnt soak damage like my Atlai but more fun to play.

I will say this about the tryhard poptarters, Im glad the meta changed slightly with the "perceived" nerf. Perception is everything!! Im glad they did it. Doesnt effect me. I still play my Highlanders and I still play my 3D and I still fly through the air. Screw it.

[MustrumRidcully]

Requiring more skill to execute poptarting seems to me a useful accomplishment. The harder something is to pull off, the more likely you can also make a mistake, a mistake that will benefit your enemy. No matter how good you are, no one is perfect ,and if the enemy is just as good as you, but uses a simpler tactic, he will likely make less mistakes and beat you.

And so, this is definitely a nerf, adding a skill requirement always is.

Whether this is a bad or a good thing is another matter.
I tend to think less poptarting is a good thing. If the 3D is now seen as less competitive, maybe that is a problem, but that is something that first needs to be verified. I tend to think if the 3D is seen less competitive, it's low hanging arms are a problem ,especially since they are also paired with a lowered arm movement range (originally to avoid a clipping problem).
That is probably what would make the Jagermech more interesting as ballistic platform. It doesn't have horizontal arm movement at all, but a good torso twist and high placed guns.

[El Bandito]

Less poptarts around is definitely a good thing for the future of MWO. And if few elites are inconvenienced by a bit as opposed to the general population, then that is entirely acceptable.

[The Cheese]

MustrumRidcully, on 09 June 2013 - 11:13 PM, said:

And so, this is definitely a nerf, adding a skill requirement always is.

If the shots went to where the reticule was, and the reticule moved in a semi-predictable manner (think of the waver that most FPS games use for a sniper rifle), then this would be a skill requirement. What we have now is the reticule having a fit while the weapons are actually still pointing at the same place that they were before the shake was introduced. Unless you're using lasers. In that case, they just randomly fire off in all directions (unless you tap off/on the jets, then sometimes they'll line themselves up properly and stay that way.)

Not trying to take it away from the people who can still jump snipe effectively with ballistics.Those people have definitely adapted well, but really all they're doing is ignoring the shake.

I said it before and I'll say it again: RNG is not a good balancing mechanic.

Edited by The Cheese, 09 June 2013 - 11:29 PM.

[El Bandito]

The Cheese, on 09 June 2013 - 11:25 PM, said:

If the shots went to where the reticule was, and the reticule moved in a semi-predictable manner (think of the waver that most FPS games use for a sniper rifle), then this would be a skill requirement. What we have now is the reticule having a fit while the weapons are actually still pointing at the same place that they were before the shake was introduced. Unless you're using lasers. In that case, they just randomly fire off in all directions (unless you tap off/on the jets, then sometimes they'll line themselves up properly and stay that way.) Not trying to take it away from the people who can still jump snipe effectively with ballistics.Those people have definitely adapted well, but really all they're doing is ignoring the shake. I said it before and I'll say it again: RNG is not a good balancing mechanic.

But it is more canon. JJs are suppose to give you big accuracy penalty, in TT and in lore. If people want their simple FPS with Jumpsniping from far away--they really should go play Counter-Strike. Hell, even in Counter-Strike (one of the most balanced competitive FPS), there is RNG while running or jumping.

We are now at a time where current technology can help PGI create the most immersive (more BT like) Mechwarrior game to date on PC. I don't want the general FPS crowd to take that away.

Edited by El Bandito, 09 June 2013 - 11:52 PM.

[PEEFsmash]

El Bandito, on 09 June 2013 - 11:47 PM, said:

But it is more canon. JJs are suppose to give you big accuracy penalty, in TT and in lore. If people want their simple FPS with Jumpsniping from far away--they really should go play Counter-Strike. Hell, even in Counter-Strike (one of the most balanced competitive FPS), there is RNG while running or jumping.

In CS 1.6, if I'm not mistaken, although guns had cones of fire, they had dedicated and non-random flight paths. (First AK bullet would be directly on target, second would be slightly up and to the left, etc).

[El Bandito]

PEEFsmash, on 09 June 2013 - 11:52 PM, said:

In CS 1.6, if I'm not mistaken, although guns had cones of fire, they had dedicated and non-random flight paths. (First AK bullet would be directly on target, second would be slightly up and to the left, etc).

Not while running and jumping. And from my own CS tests, every 10 round burst hit slightly different locations from the others.

Edited by El Bandito, 09 June 2013 - 11:54 PM.

[Sam Slade]

Lefty Lucy, on 09 June 2013 - 12:11 PM, said:

You get to determine how I have fun?

Yes. 'Leet Uber-skillz' folks are not the money spinners in this game, ordinary players are. It is delusional to think that a few Superhero Mecha-monster 'competative' teams will decide balance.

On the jump jets; it's interesting to see almost exactly the same complaints that the Counterstrike: Global Offensive testing got when it added reticule blur to movement on the AWP insta-gib sniper rifle (as opposed to the sniper easy mode in CS: S) appearing with the same angry tone here. For regular players CS:GO is a way better game then CS:S because dull 'AWPing' is not nearly as easy as it once was.

By the way all the really useless 'competative' players still play CS:S and use their beloved AWP... food for thought. The dynamic competative players upgraded their skills for CS:GO.

EDIT: El Bandito you're correct on the bullet path variation but it never really matters with insta-gib.

Edited by Sam Slade, 10 June 2013 - 12:04 AM.

[The Cheese]

El Bandito, on 09 June 2013 - 11:47 PM, said:

But it is more canon.

I'm sure I'm not going to make any friends with this, but I rate good gameplay over canon any day.

Also, I think you misunderstood me. I like MW games and I do want this to be a MW game, not another standard FPS. I'm also not against some kind of mechanic which makes jumpsniping tougher to accomplish. However, I think that the mechanic we've been given here is ham-fisted and half-arsed.

There are ways of enforcing a true skill requirement while still staying true to the lore, but this isn't one of them. To me, this looks like a knee-jerk reaction to too many people crying about poptarts rather than something that was thought up well in advance and deliberately included as a feature.

Edited by The Cheese, 10 June 2013 - 12:02 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

The Cheese, on 09 June 2013 - 11:25 PM, said:

If the shots went to where the reticule was, and the reticule moved in a semi-predictable manner (think of the waver that most FPS games use for a sniper rifle), then this would be a skill requirement. What we have now is the reticule having a fit while the weapons are actually still pointing at the same place that they were before the shake was introduced. Unless you're using lasers. In that case, they just randomly fire off in all directions (unless you tap off/on the jets, then sometimes they'll line themselves up properly and stay that way.)

Not trying to take it away from the people who can still jump snipe effectively with ballistics.Those people have definitely adapted well, but really all they're doing is ignoring the shake.

I said it before and I'll say it again: RNG is not a good balancing mechanic.

I have the impression that the "trick" people use is - they wait until the shaking stops, and then take their aim. Which is now under more time pressure, because they couldn't spend the time up getting their sights in the right position, they must do it as the descent begins, and fire before they are behind cover again.