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The Threefold Changes To Jjs:bad Idea(Especially The Randeapon Offset)Om W


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#1 Talimar1

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Posted 06 June 2013 - 06:02 AM

Parenthesis should say (Especially the Random Weapon Offset). Not sure what happened there.

Quote

- Jump jetting now cause:
- Screen shake - Jump jetting Mechs shake while jump jets are active.
- Cross hair shake - Cross-hair shake while jump jets are active.
- Weapon fire spread - Aiming weapons is randomly offset while jump jets are active.


While I agree that Poptarts were op and took very little skill to use, let's look at what they really did. Ignoring the issues of nausea caused by the screen shake(which is a very serious issue), the simple fact is the three changes were overboard for all reasons. I play a Spider 5D. Noone would say they are OP. In fact, they have come to have a very low reputation and only the most dedicated and skilled pilots can use them to potential. The JJ shake, combined with 151kph, and the previous patch's changes ppc cooldown makes the erppc spider nearly useless except at very close range, or when not taking advantage of your jump jets(PROTIP:This means death much of the time.)

These three changes can essentially be boiled to one solution that was devised by PGI: When in the air, it is completely random whether or not you hit your opponent, and where, oh, and you cant scout with JJs as easily to identify mech types because of the shake.

Screen shake makes it harder to line up enemies. That can be compensated to an extent with skill, but definitely not at the levels it is currently at for lights that move very quickly using more long range weaponry. It also lasts too long and should taper off the longer you use the JJs, not continue for a second while in free fall. Don't taper the degree of it too much or it will be too easy for poptarts, but it should taper off.

Ok, that seems reasonable. (You are now reading in Billy May's voice) But wait, there's more!

The crosshair shakes INDEPENDENTLY of the mech in the air, thus only giving an approximation of where your guns are aiming. The torso crosshair at the very least should shake at the same rate your screen shakes on a 1:1 ration. The arm one should also shake at the same or similar rate, and should be coordinated to the JJ shake, not going every which a way with no coordination with screens shake. This makes since and would provide a challenge that would keep everyone from running poptarts and would naturally deal with convergence using mechanics that are consistent.

The third change, however is the biggest issue: Weapon fire spread. This is completely, 100% random. The issue that brought it to light for me was when JJing in Frozen city, I hop on top of buildings and jump between them firing my erppc at the enemy team down the streets. A few were hitting, a few missing, I put it down to not being used to the new shake etc. Finally, one of my erppc shots didn't just miss, it missed by a mile. I'm talking the center of my screen was on the target with both crosshairs on the target(an Atlas nonetheless), and I see my erppc shot go to the right at near the maximum angle that a spider can pull off with his right arm mounted erppc. This concerns me very greatly. The shake had been billed as the thing that would cause randomness, not a random number that cannot be accounted for at all. This might be good for nerfing high alpha poptarts, but was an ill thought out move for pretty much everyone in the game. When a jenner pilot shoots over his target that is "too big to miss" not due to his own ineptness but due to a number that cannot be accounted for in gameplay, there will be complaints. I just was the first to get a massive offset.

A spider is not a simple poptart. It is a run and gun guerrilla warfare striker and scout, and the majority of it's fight time is in the air. If it doesn't it dies. It really is that simple. If you take away its ability to even do meager damage reliably, then you will find that you spent $100k or whatever you spent designing and testing and modelling etc on a worthless chassis or two(or three, as the commando is widely considered to be mostly useless as well). That leaves you with the Raven as most consistent light, and so it will once again be the only light seen in competitive fights.

PGI: Pick 2 of these 3(The ones that actually make sense hopefully, but my faith in your gameplay design choices is near to zero, especially with the fact that MGs and Flamers are still broken) The introduction of all three of these massive changes in one patch was not a good idea from a design perspective, especially after the way LRMs have been handled over the months.

PS: Since the shake changes, I have noticed that in my spider I get random screen shake when falling down hills or dropping off a building. This is independent of my use of JJs. I think it is tied to the continued shake that occurs for a second or so(I don't know the number) after letting off your JJs. It is very disorienting when that happens, and has occured even on smaller drops, including once when going off of a small rock in the garden area of river city. This isn't just collision shake, it is full on nausea inducing JJ shake. That could be part of the nausea issue.

PPS: Call me all the names you want. Call me a poptart defender. Do whatever. Poptarts are a legitimate strategy. The number of them deployed in the field was not good for MWO, but there is a place for them. The Highlander was specifically designed for poptarting, just not always in the MWO sense.

tl;dr Weapon fire spread that is completely random is not a good thing due to it not being able to be overcome through skill, and PGI used a nuke when a simple stick of dynamite would have sufficed.

Edited by Talimar1, 06 June 2013 - 06:04 AM.


#2 TexAce

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Posted 06 June 2013 - 06:08 AM

The only thing that should shake from a pilots perspective is everything outside of his cockpit. No extra random weapon shake at all. it would be completely enough. If you have no skill you'll shoot all over the place, if you have skill you can adapt a bit and control it to some extent but not completely.

i'll say it again:

They implemented it wrong. The way it is now it means that the pilot in the cockpit is getting shaked AND the mech is getting shaked (and its weapons). But the pilot should stay fit inside the cockpit and not move around, only the mech should move around. Meaning only what you see outside of the mech should shake. This would remove the nausea effect completely. Because the brain needs one thing it can use as a fix point. Usually its your own body it uses to compensate the nausea, but the way it is implemented now the brain has nothing and thus -> feeling of illness.

I only have one JJ mech, and it's a treb, I love that we have more brawling now but I can't look at the shaking screen while JJing in the Treb without the need to close my eyes. Really heavy to look at because of the reason described above.

Edited by TexAss, 06 June 2013 - 06:11 AM.


#3 JSparrowist

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Posted 06 June 2013 - 06:08 AM

poptarts were abusing JJs to camp in 4 man lances behind ridges. I want to play mech warrior...not whack-a-mech warrior.

They now require skill to use, and can still be used for poptarting...it just requires skill now!

Perhaps you need to read the patch notes again...fire on your way down! Not on the way up or at the apex.

Geez, what a hard concept!

#4 El Bandito

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Posted 06 June 2013 - 06:12 AM

JJ random shot should stay and it is perfectly reasonable. On land, you have your gyros to keep your weapons on target. In the air? Good luck trying to hit anything unless you are in a free fall.

So, yes to random targetting while using JJs. Just let go off the space button if you wanna shoot. You poptarts shouldn't be complaining since poptarting takes a bit of skill now.

Nice sig Sparrowist--captured my thought.

Edited by El Bandito, 06 June 2013 - 06:14 AM.


#5 Calos112

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Posted 06 June 2013 - 06:20 AM

Have to disagree. Its perfect. Nausea is not a serious problem. Besides they would only have to put a warning like they do for seizures from light patterns. I can hit mechs just fine at full speed, full jump. Don't know why everyone is complaining. I agree they could tone down the shake for lights only. Maybe a small tweak for mediums. But leave the heavies and assaults shake right where it is.

#6 Vassago Rain

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Posted 06 June 2013 - 06:24 AM

I run a raven with twin PPCs and jets.

It can do the exact same thing you'd use a 3D for. The change hit every mech equally, and was for the best.

#7 Tarl Cabot

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Posted 06 June 2013 - 06:28 AM

What is the difference between a lance of 4-6 ER/PPC stalkers staking out their claim around Theta and a lance of HGN 733P (3-4 ER/PPCs) camping out another spot at a distance with a ridge between them both?

The stalkers should own the "poptart" (those, by most definitions, are those who pop up and down in the same place), even if the stalkers do not move. Each side can only hit what they can see and a highlander has to show lot of her profile for her shots to arrive. And the "poptarts" rarely time their jumps together or purposely target the same mech. And the other hand, there is the reaction time of the stalkers, "How long do I wait before I pull that trigger and blast that mech?". Of course it is a two-way street, most pilots do not follow the one, basic rule, a non-moving mech is a dead mech, be it standing in one spot or jumping up/down in one spot.

The other thing I have noticed, my perception, is that many of the "jump haters" are those who rarely use jump capable mechs and they are in slow moving mechs. It is easier, whether one is jumping or not, to hit a slow moving mech and even more so when that mech is moving almost in a direct line towards you and looking elsewhere (or have very slow reaction time).

As a highlander owner myself the least favor one I own is the 733P (max 4 ER/PPC), the same mech that I have seen several of the "poptarts" utilize. For the amount of time I piloted it both W/L and KDR are almost 1 for 1. I also realized why that is too. I enjoy playing all the ranges, weakening my opponents as much as possible before it becomes a knife fight. And during those knife fights I enjoyed having the ability to jump and fire at my opponents from the air, be it in a jenner, a cataphract or a highlander. The effects are they are either too slow to react and miss me or clipping my legs some. And when you are a highlander in the mist of the enemy they all tend to focus on you, thus allowing your team mates to start mop up.

Do I agree with the current nerf? No, as it was too severe, aimed more at one particular class of mech for the wrong reason. Can't help it either that the devs made themselves easy targets (slow moving/straight line) and were head shot a few times. From my view point with the screen shake the eye strain is most severe with the missile cross hairs.

Now the haters with adapt phrase. What if a change had been made and the large laser effects caused you severe discomfort which you were told to just adapt to it by not using them. How would you really feel about that?

I actually am for a change in the pin point accuracy this game has for its direct fire weapons, be it standing still, walking, running or jetting around. Reduce the shake and put in a cone of fire. On the other hand, think about how the three.. that is three, not one, not two but three effects were used to alter a specific game play, and how those effects can now be used elsewhere, seriously. One of the first things that came to mind is that this is PGI's first steps in towards putting in BT penalties for movement, any type of movement. It would be a step towards increasing a mech's lifespan, even if it only for a little bit longer.

PGI triple hit has caused quite a stir, enough to make those who had not been playing come back to play, thinking things are changing and will continue to change, a sleight of hand. And PGI implementation of some of their items does show that their internal testers/users, including themselves, rarely think outside the box in their game play. That can be garnered from both their posted videos and their live feeds. Sad day...And I am holding my opinions on their open test server that is supposed happen here in the near future.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 06 June 2013 - 07:51 AM.


#8 Talimar1

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Posted 06 June 2013 - 06:29 AM

I know all about firing on the down arc. I do that quite frequently. If you notice, I agreed that poptarts were out of hand.

HOWEVER

A random factor such as the RANDOM offset of which there is no indication is a bad thing. It doesn't require skill, it is pure luck. JSparrowist, it is obvious that you don't know how a spider is played. The windows for firing in a spider are small. There has to be a way to hit from longer range in the air while JJing. Yes it should take considerable skill. Should I miss when I have fought both the screen shake and reticule shake, only come to find out my weapons were being offset by a factor that cannot be known nor predicted? No.

#9 El Bandito

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Posted 06 June 2013 - 06:30 AM

View PostTarl Cabot, on 06 June 2013 - 06:28 AM, said:

What is the difference between a lance of 4-6 ER/PPC stalkers staking out their claim around Theta and a lance of HGN 733P camping out another spot at a distance with a ridge between them both?


The Stalkers are easy to beat in brawls. Huge side torsos and slow turns and no horizontal arm movement.

#10 Vassago Rain

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Posted 06 June 2013 - 06:31 AM

View PostTarl Cabot, on 06 June 2013 - 06:28 AM, said:

What is the difference between a lance of 4-6 ER/PPC stalkers staking out their claim around Theta and a lance of HGN 733P camping out another spot at a distance with a ridge between them both?


The stalkers can be caught, and must play by the rules. They can't magically make all terrain go away, and land 45 damage strikes on people without any real risk of retaliation.

We always come back to bunnyhopping scouts, versus AWP snipers covering entrances.

#11 El Bandito

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Posted 06 June 2013 - 06:32 AM

View PostTalimar1, on 06 June 2013 - 06:29 AM, said:

I know all about firing on the down arc. I do that quite frequently. If you notice, I agreed that poptarts were out of hand. HOWEVER A random factor such as the RANDOM offset of which there is no indication is a bad thing. It doesn't require skill, it is pure luck. JSparrowist, it is obvious that you don't know how a spider is played. The windows for firing in a spider are small. There has to be a way to hit from longer range in the air while JJing. Yes it should take considerable skill. Should I miss when I have fought both the screen shake and reticule shake, only come to find out my weapons were being offset by a factor that cannot be known nor predicted? No.


Just let go of that space button. Then shoot. With practice, you can do it, unless you want to whine here instead.

#12 Zyllos

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Posted 06 June 2013 - 06:35 AM

Doesn't the shake stop if you stop using thrusters for like half a second?

If it doesn't, then that is a bug.

But that is how you fix aiming when jumping, you have to wait until you want to reach your apex before firing.

#13 MaddMaxx

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Posted 06 June 2013 - 06:36 AM

View PostTarl Cabot, on 06 June 2013 - 06:28 AM, said:

What is the difference between a lance of 4-6 ER/PPC stalkers staking out their claim around Theta and a lance of HGN 733P camping out another spot at a distance with a ridge between them both?


If you really do not know the difference, it is doubtful anyone can explain it such that you would understand anyways.

#14 Bilbo

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Posted 06 June 2013 - 06:37 AM

View PostTarl Cabot, on 06 June 2013 - 06:28 AM, said:

What is the difference between a lance of 4-6 ER/PPC stalkers staking out their claim around Theta and a lance of HGN 733P camping out another spot at a distance with a ridge between them both?


The stalkers have to expose themselves for more than a second to shoot at you.

#15 MuonNeutrino

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Posted 06 June 2013 - 06:37 AM

I agree with the previous posts. Random deviation is perfectly fine - in fact, it's *required* if they want the changes to actually have the intended effect, precisely because it *can't* be worked around. For the people who are bothered by it on a realism level, think about it this way - you're not aiming, your targeting computer is, and while the jets are shaking your mech all over the place the unreliable dystopian-future-grade-tech targeting computer can't cope with all of the random motions and can't properly update the crosshair position to reflect where the guns are actually currently pointing.

As for the rest of it, I do agree that the visual shake is a bit too much right now. However, PGI has already said that they're going to further tweak things in a future patch such that the shake is dependent on mech weight, so that should restore some of the usefulness for lights and mediums.

Edited by MuonNeutrino, 06 June 2013 - 06:37 AM.


#16 RedDragon

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Posted 06 June 2013 - 06:47 AM

View PostTalimar1, on 06 June 2013 - 06:02 AM, said:

erppc spider

There is your problem.

#17 Talimar1

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Posted 06 June 2013 - 06:56 AM

I want to say again, I know how to aim and shoot after the apex of my jump, when JJs are released.There is a problem however. The spider doesn't jump straight up and down like poptarts generally do and moves much quicker. If piloted right, the spider generally fires in a much shallower parabolic curve. You can't fire post apex often because you will be blocked by an obstacle. Otherwise, you might as well not have JJs for a spider. I am pissed because this all means that I have to relearn everything about piloting my favorite mech, one in which I have accumulated nearly 800,000 xp in since january, none of it paid for all of it earned. I am so dedicated to it I fought my way to 8th place in the Light category in a time when streaks and ravens were OP as ****. Don't think for a second I don't know how to pilot my mech.

Yes Poptarts were a problem. No, the Spider was not a problem. Yes PGI's response was heavy handed. No, randomness for the sake of randomness is not good. Yes shake can be compensated with skill. No, a random weapon offset of which there is no indication and is purely random is not a good, as it can't be compensated with skill. Yes, you can always fire post Jump Jets along your arc. But not on a spider while trying to let it have a modicum of usefulness in this game, a modicum that was already disputed. Do you see what I am getting at?

THERE SHOULD BE NO USELESS MECHS IN GAME, AND NERFING JJs IN THE MANNER THEY HAVE HAS MADE THE SPIDER PERMANENTLY USELESS, NO HOPE OF REDEMPTION WITHOUT TAKING OUT THE COMPLETELY RANDOM WEAPON OFFSET.

Edited by Talimar1, 06 June 2013 - 07:00 AM.


#18 Tarl Cabot

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Posted 06 June 2013 - 07:58 AM

(chuckles) My apologies. I should have considered how the stalker pilots would handle the situation based on both their experiences and reflexes.

Sad day..

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 06 June 2013 - 07:58 AM.


#19 Monky

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Posted 06 June 2013 - 08:26 AM

Jumpjet sniping is bad for game balance and is unintended anyways. Sorry guys, give up the ghost. I know you're used to being able to do it, but that toy has been taken away. Use Jumpjets to get around, not to blast people from midair.

#20 Wreknar Temper

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Posted 06 June 2013 - 08:37 AM

View PostTalimar1, on 06 June 2013 - 06:56 AM, said:

I want to say again, I know how to aim and shoot after the apex of my jump, when JJs are released.There is a problem however. The spider doesn't jump straight up and down like poptarts generally do and moves much quicker. If piloted right, the spider generally fires in a much shallower parabolic curve. You can't fire post apex often because you will be blocked by an obstacle. Otherwise, you might as well not have JJs for a spider. I am pissed because this all means that I have to relearn everything about piloting my favorite mech, one in which I have accumulated nearly 800,000 xp in since january, none of it paid for all of it earned. I am so dedicated to it I fought my way to 8th place in the Light category in a time when streaks and ravens were OP as ****. Don't think for a second I don't know how to pilot my mech.

Yes Poptarts were a problem. No, the Spider was not a problem. Yes PGI's response was heavy handed. No, randomness for the sake of randomness is not good. Yes shake can be compensated with skill. No, a random weapon offset of which there is no indication and is purely random is not a good, as it can't be compensated with skill. Yes, you can always fire post Jump Jets along your arc. But not on a spider while trying to let it have a modicum of usefulness in this game, a modicum that was already disputed. Do you see what I am getting at?

THERE SHOULD BE NO USELESS MECHS IN GAME, AND NERFING JJs IN THE MANNER THEY HAVE HAS MADE THE SPIDER PERMANENTLY USELESS, NO HOPE OF REDEMPTION WITHOUT TAKING OUT THE COMPLETELY RANDOM WEAPON OFFSET.



Am I to understand you correctly that you are angry you have to relearn how to poptart snipe in the spider? Like everyone else piloting the other jump capable mechs? Sorry man, but you're not in any worse of a situation than everyone else so you can knock off the melodrama. The parabolic curve jump arc you're complaining about is the same for any mech that jumps in motion, you jump the same height regardless of standing still or in motion.

The shake is really not that bad, you just have to over jump in order to take a shot, big freaking deal.





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