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June 4Th Patch: "srm Adjustments"


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#1 Voidcrafter

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 01:57 AM

Yes, there are few comments here and there I haven't managed to find a good, descriptive topic about what do people think about the Short Range Missles and I think there are lots of folks, who had their hopes raised for those two words: "SRM Adjustments".

In the end the patch came with the following data:



- Host State Rewinding Phase 3 (Missile weapons)
- User should no longer have firing delay when shooting a missile weapon
- User should now be able to hit moving targets with these weapons even when experiencing latency up to ~450 ms
- Affected weapons: SRM2, SRM4, SRM6, NARC


And:

- SRM spread reduced from 8m to 6m.
(Both taken from the patch notes)

I personally think that these two are way insuffitient change toward making the SRM if not good, then at least not completely useless weapon at all.
Yes, I can understand why the DEVs have decieded to go slowly toward the weapon ballance, but looking at the upcoming content tracker I can see no intention for upcoming future "fix" for the current terrible missile state.

Are they(SRMs) really, REALLY terrible? Do they need fixing? Is that important at all?
What the hell is this guy talking about? Is it my fault he can not use the weapon and decieded to start topic, whining about how useless it is for his own skill borders?

I expect as such as comments.
By a way or another I can never prove that neither I am 100% right and I have no prejudices, nor anyone can prove a valid enough point to convince me I am 100% wrong about these thing, so what I'm looking forward is a discussion! ;)

And with that in mind here's my point of view:
The missiles do way too tiny amount of damage - I've rolled some games with my Zombie Cent 9-A and my hunchie 4SP.
What proof is that?
Well... back in the good 'ol times the missiles were a very important part of the arsenal of the medium mechs. I mean - cmon - the Centurion(all except the hero mech), the Huhchback(two of the strongest variants - at least in my taste - 4SP and 4J), The Trebuchete, even the Cicada(well.. the X-5 anyways, which is not the best starting point you know :ph34r: ) - some of the Heavies too - the Catapult, the Dragon, now the A-variant of the Jagermech could do some very interesting things with the SRMs.

How many of those mechs have you seen lately trying to put some Short Range Missiles in a interesting build that helps the gameplay variety?
Back to where I was - I played with my zombie cent and 4SP - and to be fair - I felt like a complete clown.
Not because I didn't pilot them good, had a bad aim, didn't lived long enough - nope.
I lived more than I ever expected(considering - you know - I'm piloting a medium in a good ELO bracket, which means the numbers of the Atlai/HGNs with a gauss and 3+PPCs and PEPSI stalkers are ordinary quite high, which basically means on an accurate shot from their side I lose my half firepower... and that IF I'm lucky :blink: ) - I put incredible effort in hitting the enemy, most of the shots landed, paired with the medium lasers etc. etc.
You know what?
300 damage.
That was for about around 200 missiles fired(a bit more tho - with few misses), and after every single volley I waited 4 secs for the SRM6-es to cooldown, so I can fire again.
I recall hitting a cicada about 5 times in the back(with 2xSRM6es) without seriously endager it.

So seriously, for example, if an Atlai(and for the example again - try to imagine that to be a DDC which has gone toward the standard build) could've put something else in that left torso, wouldn't it go for it?
What reason could somebody see in the idea of wasting space and weight for this weapon?
Yes, I know - they needed to remove the spash damage - OK.
They made the spread terrible - OK.
But why the hell the damage, that the best brawling weapon of choice had should be reduced that much?
I think that's one of the things that makes the medium mechs such a rare sight nowadays.
I literally felt helpless - I knew that even if I get close enough to something slower than me I won't be able to do any serious harm to it before I get killed.
I was certain about it - I had no doubt about it.
Cause of that damage reduction, combined with the spread and everything - the time it takes me to punish a foe for letting me that close is more than 2.5 times before the SRMs started to get hit by the nerf bat.
What do a 4SP or a 4J has as choice then?
You can do either that, or mount LRMs or SSRMs.

Then what about the people who really ejnoyed the SRMs as a weapon then?
Why should we ignore the existence of a weapon in the game - and if we should - why should it be there(in game) at all?

The lack of that sort of builds, even amoungst the Medium mechs, in my opinion again, shift the metagaming to a state, which direction is very hard to predict.
I think bringing back the SRMs as one of the main brawler choice when it comes down to a weapon should be a priority of the efforts that go toward the game ballance.

I don't think it.
I'm sure of it.

Probably I'm not the only person in the world, that evades playing his medium mechs cause of that.

#2 Sephlock

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 02:07 AM

Quote

I personally think that these two are way insuffitient change toward making the SRM if not good, then at least not completely useless weapon at all.
Yes, I can understand why the DEVs have decieded to go slowly toward the weapon ballance, but looking at the [color="#b27204"]upcoming content tracker[/color] I can see no intention for upcoming future "fix" for the current terrible missile state.
I would think you'd be used to that by now. Have you been following LBX, MGs, or Flamers at all? Or anything, really ;)?

#3 Tennex

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 02:10 AM

Should be like this

Posted Image

#4 armyof1

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 02:25 AM

Yes not seeing any mention of tweaking SRMs in dev future plans is truly worrying. I've been running a couple matches with a Cent D and the lack of decent SRMs is really getting annoying. The only other choice is go with lame streaks and hunt lights and medium CTs. SRMs (when they are any good) are a lot more versatile as long as you're good at leading your shots, but now it's just too much a waste of time. Back to PPCs and Large lasers for me which is about twice as effective until they bother making SRMs good enough.

Edited by armyof1, 10 June 2013 - 02:27 AM.


#5 Voidcrafter

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 02:39 AM

View Postarmyof1, on 10 June 2013 - 02:25 AM, said:

Yes not seeing any mention of tweaking SRMs in dev future plans is truly worrying. I've been running a couple matches with a Cent D and the lack of decent SRMs is really getting annoying. The only other choice is go with lame streaks and hunt lights and medium CTs. SRMs (when they are any good) are a lot more versatile as long as you're good at leading your shots, but now it's just too much a waste of time. Back to PPCs and Large lasers for me which is about twice as effective until they bother making SRMs good enough.


That's about it - if I can put a PPC in anywhere in my side torsos to compensate for the extra weight I got cause of the SRMs I could've put otherwise(well... in case they were useful at all) - I won't have any doubt about doing it.
That's just a part of the thingy I mentioned about the metagame shifting.
Hell.. I even see ravens and jenners and spiders with ERPPC now.

The main thing is that SRMs don't reward you for the effort you put in using them, you know?
Few months back when I was either in my zombie cent or in my 4SP I really felt like a "light mech hunter"... Now they(the lights) make me feel like a complete clown.
Everytime I see them circling around me I can hear their thoughts "HAHA the poor guy has SRMs...".
So I manage to land a volley of SRMs on the light mech again and again and again and again and again... and I eventually get killed, cause, you see, the light pilot's 4 medium lasers were able to do twice(if not three times) the harm my carefully aimed 2xSRM6s could've done.
It just feels wrong.

Back in the good old days(again) sometimes, when I had no choice, I ocasionally engaged any random Assault, tried to stay in it's back, behind my speed shield and now and then I had the kill.
Now that just can't happen - the assaults fear no mech with SRMs.
A stalker, instead of thinking "2 Mediums with SRMs on me... man I'm gonna die quickly.." now is thinking "Gah... 2 Mediums with SRMs on me... those guys are really anoying... it will take me 5 minutes to get rid of them...".
PPC boats, LRM boats should be afraid of the lights.
A way more then they do now.
Cause good medium pilot should mean the death of them, not some annoying mishap, that takes few extra seconds to get rid off.

Most of the mediums have the ability to mount SRMs - that was one of the main idea about their design and role - they get to you quickly and cause headaches.
Yes they can be support or "LRM boats", but that's pretty much it - probably they are the chasis that's most crippled by the uselessness of the SRMs.
I miss piloting one, I really do - mostly cause I loved the missiles.
And I miss the days when engaging a DDC I actually had doubts about which sidetorso I should focus-fire on first ;)

#6 Sephlock

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 02:44 AM

On the bright side, the current state of SRMs + the lack of any changes to them in the forseeable future + LRMs being poopy outside of the hallucinations of lunatics = an SSRM holocaust for light mechs.



#7 Rippthrough

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 03:19 AM

View PostSephlock, on 10 June 2013 - 02:07 AM, said:

I would think you'd be used to that by now. Have you been following LBX, MGs, or Flamers at all? Or anything, really ;)?


You missed out LRMs, machine guns, pulse lasers, PPC's, NARC, ECM, BAP, AC5/UAC5, streaks, jumpjets, airstrike, artillery, and the *********** that is Seismic which relegates anything lighter than 50 tons to only being in the game to act as a duck shoot.

Edited by Rippthrough, 10 June 2013 - 03:22 AM.


#8 OneEyed Jack

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 03:54 AM

View PostRippthrough, on 10 June 2013 - 03:19 AM, said:


You missed out LRMs, machine guns, pulse lasers, PPC's, NARC, ECM, BAP, AC5/UAC5, streaks, jumpjets, airstrike, artillery, and the *********** that is Seismic which relegates anything lighter than 50 tons to only being in the game to act as a duck shoot.

No, you just missed the point of his post, He wasn't whining like you. He was just mentioning the weapons that have been bad since the beginning of the game and are never addressed in a meaningful way.

Christ, it'd take you less time to tell us the stuff in the game you're not gonna whine about.

#9 MustrumRidcully

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 04:03 AM

View PostTennex, on 10 June 2013 - 02:10 AM, said:

Should be like this

Posted Image

I am not opposed, but maybe we should keep it simple:
  • SRM damage raised to 2.0 per missile
Do this, and see what happens. (I wouldn't touch the SSRM for now.)

#10 Rippthrough

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 04:12 AM

View PostOneEyed Jack, on 10 June 2013 - 03:54 AM, said:

Christ, it'd take you less time to tell us the stuff in the game you're not gonna whine about.


You know what, think back over months and months and months of the same ****. I'm feeling the same way.
I logged in for the first time in a couple of months yesterday only to find the JJ and PPC nerfs do nothing against what they were supposed to (poptarting/boating PPC's, everything still dies to the 3F/3D/highlander), which is pretty obvious when you consider the changes, and those combined with seismic and SRM's being crap have just been another kick in the nuts to brawling and lights. If you're going to give JJ's shake and give everyone a wallhack, at least give them some power back so you don't need to mount 8-12 on a light just to get it to manouver up cliffs...


View PostMustrumRidcully, on 10 June 2013 - 04:03 AM, said:

I am not opposed, but maybe we should keep it simple:
  • SRM damage raised to 2.0 per missile
Do this, and see what happens. (I wouldn't touch the SSRM for now.)




SSRM seems okay with lower damage as a trade off, I think the SRM will probably need a touch more than 2.0 damage to offset it's range and spread, but it's a good starting point.

Edited by Rippthrough, 10 June 2013 - 04:15 AM.


#11 Voidcrafter

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 04:15 AM

View PostMustrumRidcully, on 10 June 2013 - 04:03 AM, said:

I am not opposed, but maybe we should keep it simple:
  • SRM damage raised to 2.0 per missile
Do this, and see what happens. (I wouldn't touch the SSRM for now.)



Let's make it 3 as a start ;)
2 is not a bad value for baby steps, but let's be real here...
There is no splash damage as it was before they nerfed it - having in mind the spread they currently have I think even 3 would be a bit tiny...
It's not the same as AC20(even tho it may seem that 3x6 == 18) with less weight - AC20s fly in a straight line, hittin' the same place every time.
SRMs spread, even at point blank there is a chance for you not hitting the same torso part, tho rarely - but even so they have less range than the ACs. They are not even comparable to begin with...
It's cool - leave the spread, I'll miss the old flying path(yea, the fellow above pointed it quite accurate actually - which actually made the missiles quite a "skill" weapon in case you really want to use it right), but double the current damage!

Give some reason to the most of the medium mechs to get on the battlefield again...

#12 John MatriX82

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 04:32 AM

I second Tennex and I add that SRMs should be buffed in damage again.. otherwise like the op said, an important brawling choice is missing, therefore you can't brawl for good without them and you go sniping or LRMing.

Latest srm patches simply destroyed many builds I used to go around happily with (Cent A/AL, D-DC srm brawler, 3F mid to short brawler, HBK 4SP.. and Dragons got 1/3 of their short ranged capability crippled, take a dual SRM4 1N.. it's dusting by weeks in my mechbay).

Edited by John MatriX82, 10 June 2013 - 04:33 AM.


#13 Tennex

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 04:32 AM

View PostMustrumRidcully, on 10 June 2013 - 04:03 AM, said:

I am not opposed, but maybe we should keep it simple:
  • SRM damage raised to 2.0 per missile
Do this, and see what happens. (I wouldn't touch the SSRM for now.)





that would work too.. but the devs do not want to increase SRM damage without increasing sSRM damage also. they want them to be linked for some reason

maybe for lore reasons

Just looked at it now, and lol even the damage, cycle rate and dps are the same for the SRM2 and sSRM2

Edited by Tennex, 10 June 2013 - 04:34 AM.


#14 MaddMaxx

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 05:22 AM

View PostTennex, on 10 June 2013 - 04:32 AM, said:


that would work too.. but the devs do not want to increase SRM damage without increasing sSRM damage also. they want them to be linked for some reason

maybe for lore reasons

Just looked at it now, and lol even the damage, cycle rate and dps are the same for the SRM2 and sSRM2


Perhaps it is because they are BOTH Short Range Missiles? A tracking chip doesn't change the base missile ffs.

#15 John MatriX82

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 05:27 AM

View PostMaddMaxx, on 10 June 2013 - 05:22 AM, said:


Perhaps it is because they are BOTH Short Range Missiles? A tracking chip doesn't change the base missile ffs.


But maybe they could say "guidance sys takes aways some room for the payload" and bang, they could do different damages..

#16 Voidcrafter

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 05:38 AM

View PostJohn MatriX82, on 10 June 2013 - 05:27 AM, said:


But maybe they could say "guidance sys takes aways some room for the payload" and bang, they could do different damages..


Yea - I agree with that - the SSRMS should do a bit less damage than SRMs - currently, at least as long as I've played with them - they(the streaks) seems to be alright.
That's a good point though - the lights(well... most of them) lack the missile tubes to make full use of SRM4s/6s which, intended or not, I find very good for the ballance.
On the other hand if the streaks do about 3 damage per shot, that would make any good light pilot a demi-god(I mean the 2D commando and the 3-L ravens mostly) - and that's not only amongst their own chasis(cause not all the lights can put a SSRMs you know) - yes, there are state rewinds and there are very good pilots with the ballistic weapons, an AC40 Jager can one shot most light mechs, but for the average pilot, a light with ECM and SSRMS doing 3 damage is a bit of an overkill.

The more we discuss the topic the more I see why the short range missiles are tough to ballance...
But still I'm certain their current state is unacceptable!
I wanna get back to my beloved hunchie and not feel worthless again...

#17 MaddMaxx

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 05:43 AM

View PostJohn MatriX82, on 10 June 2013 - 05:27 AM, said:


But maybe they could say "guidance sys takes aways some room for the payload" and bang, they could do different damages..


Or perhaps they could call a PPC a Pretty Pissy Cannon and not allow more then 2 on a Mech and bang, no more dreaded 60 point alpha's. ;)

#18 SpiralRazor

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 05:49 AM

Simple...If Splash was removed, like it has been, there was no reason for a damage nerf as well.


Both systems need to go back to 2.5. Streaks are already limited in doing 5 damage per launcher.

#19 John MatriX82

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 05:58 AM

View PostMaddMaxx, on 10 June 2013 - 05:43 AM, said:


Or perhaps they could call a PPC a Pretty Pissy Cannon and not allow more then 2 on a Mech and bang, no more dreaded 60 point alpha's. ;)


I hope they'll realize that heat penalties won't work and they'll introduce some kind of hardpoint restriction system, something like that you can still place any weapon anywhere, but the chassis has a limit, like that Stalkers can mount 2x3crit energy slot maximum (2 PPCs) or 3x2crit slots (3x LL); the remaining 4/3 slots would be limited to 1 crit slot (mls/smls and so on).. then make the Awesomes (8Q/9M) to be the only ones to carry 3xPPCs and bang! You'd have a counterable but respected chassis.

Srms and lrms should have a similar system, but only considering the total number of tubes available in a section, so that if that section holds 3 missile hardpoints with 10 tubes (Cent A), you can't load 3xSRM6, but SRM4+SRM6+LRM10 (mixing of srms and lrms is allowed) or srm4+srm4+srm2 if you want higher dps srms only.

Edited by John MatriX82, 10 June 2013 - 06:00 AM.


#20 MustrumRidcully

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 06:00 AM

View PostJohn MatriX82, on 10 June 2013 - 05:27 AM, said:


But maybe they could say "guidance sys takes aways some room for the payload" and bang, they could do different damages..

Exactly.





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