1263 replies to this topic

[Jabilo]

There is one mech that has ruined this game.

It has unbalanced the game to such an extent that it can only be described as broken.

Whatever your ELO it casts a shadow over the meta.

Whole teams simply run with it, 8 at a time like packs of wild hunting dogs!

The Hunchback 4P.

F*** the hunchback 4P! It is time to kill this ******* powerhouse and its many lasers of evil.

Let the bells of Winchester ring across the land, the game is saved and balance has been restored.

Of course a Highlander running 3 PPCs and 1 ERPPC is absolutely fine.

Or perhaps a Misery with 3 ERPPCs and a Gauss. This is fine.

Atlas RS with 2 PPCs, 2 ERPPCs and a Gauss? Nothing to see here.

It's all fine.

All fine.

Fine.

Fin.

[Felicitatem Parco]

For this to work to it's intended effect, I think that ER and Normal variants of PPCs and LL have to be treated as the same. Also, the 150% cap should be lowered to 130%. The 6ML max is good, that allows the Hunchback 4P to alpha the shoulder, and the BJ can alpha the arms without penalty, then fire the remaining 2 or 3 lasers half-a-second later.


I know that this Heat Penalty is not an attempt to draw people away from the Gauss + 2 PPC and other direct-fire builds build, I'm sorry that so many people are mad that this penalty won't have that effect. It's kind of the same as back when people were infuriated about how the 4-second PPC cooldown time was a miserable attempt to curb PPC boating, even though it wasn't an attempt to curb PPC boating. The large amount of Direct Fire currently deployed is something that requires a variety of tuning techniques to tame. Curbing the Massed-PPC direct fire is one step, just a step, and I'm not angry about how that single step hasn't solved everything.

There are many possible steps to take regarding the encouragement of other weapons like reducing the AC/10 and AC/2's heat and other game-altering effects can be introduced such as firing-recoil or whatnot. But, in the absence of those changes, I will say that the PPC boating heat penalty is a non-game-breaking change that will encourage a little less massive alphas, and a little more damage spread. More changes are surly inbound.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 11 June 2013 - 01:35 PM.

[Raso]

Pulse lasers still act as beam lasers with a much shorter range. This needs to be changed. They need some further distinction. Maybe give them a significant increase to their rate of fire but reduce their damage per shot but keep it so that their DPS surpass that of a beam laser. Maybe make them act like short range PPCs and fire quick bursts of pin point damage rather than a beam laser's 10 or so damage ticks.

Moving along, the AC10 also needs some loving. It feels a little under-powered atm. It seems to be a stop gap between the AC5 and the AC20 but so much so that it often seems better to use either of those in place of the AC10. I propose increased range and bullet speed. Make the AC10 capable of dealing significant damage out to a respectable distance. Make a dual AC20 Jager fear an AC10 Jager at a distance, not the other way around.

That said the LBX10 is still garbage. Fix it. Make it do DAMAGE no more of this crit nonsense. Make it deal extra damage inside of 150m, bump it's base damage beyond that, reduce it' spread and there you go. Now it's a weapon that is feared up close, usable from a fair distance and no longer useless.

Lastly we have SRMs. They feel very much lacking at the moment and could really use a boost. Fix them.

And finally this nonsense about boating. Do you know how deadly a Cataphract with 2 ERPPC and a gauss is? Or even with 2 PPC and a gauss? The problem isn't people boating 20 PPC it's that if you fire 3 PPC and a gauss together that translates into MASSIVE damage to a single part of a mech's body. And that is only a part of the problem. Right now the meta is largely on long range, direct fire weapons with high damage per shot. There needs to be a reason to brawl again. Make fix SRMs and the LBX10 and you'll be on your way to making that a reality. Then, you need to make pulse lasers something that stands out, something more than a short range beam laser with a lot more heat and a little bit more damage.

[ThePieMaker]

150% is too high IMHO.
Should be something like minor damage taken at 105-115%
Significant damage at 115-130%
Critical damage or Instant death at 130-135%

[Mokou]

SirLANsalot, on 11 June 2013 - 01:32 PM, said:

So 2 LL/PPC is normal for a mech ...blah blah blah... nerf 3xPPC

******** it, stop drive only stalker or what kind of mech u all use?
Two of my AWS have 3xPPC(and 3xERPPC) on stock loadout.
Can u read it THREE PPC AND THREE ERPPC ON STOCK LOADOUT.
Not two, not one, not four. Leave us AWS alone!

Edited by Mokou, 11 June 2013 - 01:37 PM.

[FerrolupisXIII]

I'd like to see this implemented on a per mech basis. like in their original post, they mention the 4SP which comes stock with those 6 medium lasers. so, why should it be penalized for using them? i think the same should apply for other mechs that come with large numbers of certain weapons systems, like the Awesome with its large numbers of PPC's stock.

[Huntsman]

FrDrake, on 11 June 2013 - 01:30 PM, said:

Pulse changes = good for SPL, mediums are still underwhelming, LPL are looking kind of bad now

LPL are bad now, although they had a rare niche when the mech using it had absolutely 0 heat issues. With this upcoming change they're to be back to being total and complete garbage. I'm not sure what reality the decision maker was in when he came to the conclusion..."ya know what's OP? LPLs."

[Hauser]

If anything I hope these changes aren't implemented until the damage on SRMs is increased to usable levels.

[Capt Jester]

Banditman, on 11 June 2013 - 11:06 AM, said:

I don't think that your reasoning for the ML limit is a strong one. You are basing a balance point for the entire game around one single variant of one single mech. That doesn't seem like a great idea to me. I am not arguing for an increase or decrease to the ML limit, only saying that I hope more analysis went into that number than simply to say "Well, the 4P has six energy HP's in it's hunch".

I also think you should consider increase the delay from .5 to a full second. Half a second will not really make a difference in the mega alpha builds like the 6 PPC Stalker. People will simply macro it with a G15 or similar keyboard or mouse. Certainly, they can still macro it at 1 second, but it will feel a lot more awkward at that point.

They just don't want to admit this is all because of 6 PPC Stalkers and other PPC boats. I don't think there's a huge number of Laserbacks, and when you do find them, their effective range is 270m. A 6 PPC Stalker, on the other hand, has an effective range of double that: 540m. If they're crazy and choose ERPPCs, they've got even more range.

Laserbacks are balanced, PPC boats are not. They don't need to fire often because once they hit your CT or your head, you're a goner already.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Given that the 4P's head hard point is super synergistic with the pod hard points, it is disappointing to see the ML limit set at 6. Still, this might well be a simple example and subject to review, so I won't focus on it too heavily.

I do like the apparent trend in boating limits being based on canonical boat builds like the 4P and the Awesome. It seems like the best way to set a base line without making certain Trial mechs absolutely useless.

Also, will the 150%+ damage be an additional mechanic to the current Override damage, or will it replace it? I hope it will be in addition.

MG and Flamer changes look good.

SSRM changes can't come soon enough. Hopefully this will let you bump up SRM damage to where it really needs to be.

[Lostdragon]

I think the boating heat penalty is double plus ungood. The game is already complicated enough, there is no need to make the learning curve steeper by assigning arbitrary values for each weapon to be considered boated. This will break some good builds that are not OP and it will probably not have the desired result if you can just fire 3 PPCs then fire 3 more 0.5 s later.

I firmly believe the problem can be solved with a lower heat cap and higher dissipation. Going this route might require adjusting heat values on individual weapons but it is far less convoluted and much easier for players to understand.

If you implement the system you have outlined you are going to wind up with top tier players who understand all the mechanics taking advantage of the way the system works to crush those who will not grasp the nuances of the game. Fun games that attract large audiences are easy to learn and difficult to master. The pendulum for MWO is swinging toward difficult to learn and difficult to master which is not going to be good for the game in the long run.

[Chavette]

Why not make a SRM-like spread for the SSRMS so you don't have to deal with magic numbers? Just make them small, direct path LRMs and forget this always-hit, even-if-you-are-behind-the-the-guy-and-facing-away garbage.

ThePieMaker, on 11 June 2013 - 01:35 PM, said:

150% is too high IMHO.
Should be something like minor damage taken at 105-115%
Significant damage at 115-130%
Critical damage or Instant death at 130-135%

You have two buttons dedicated just to deal with high heat situations. Why would it be so complicated if you get F-ed if you shoot a single ppc over the heat threshold? Whats the use of an override button if you die anyway if you use it?

[Chemie]

So SSRM go from CT seaker (which was not good) to arm, leg, and HEAD seeker? So I get to head shot with SSRM now? or making SSRM useless because I do not need to shot an Atlas' legs and arms?

Lower probability CT makes no sense. Lower hit probability CT,RT,LT is dumb.

and like others said, instead of a new mechaic that will break something else. just put PPC back to where they were a few months ago. Slower projectile speed and a bit more heat. Problem solved.

Edited by Chemie, 11 June 2013 - 01:54 PM.

[Shae Starfyre]

I am tired of reading these 10 pages.

Whatever you do, PGI, good for you, as I am sure it will provide the data you need to continue the process.

[GroovYChickeN]

First off to the fourm users.

Stop being {Richard Cameron}. Responding with some venomous ******* remark will not get you what you want. All it will do is make everyone say "he must be a 6erppc Stakler pilot".

You guys need to give CONSTRUCTIVE feed back. Not nerd rage.

STOP BEING {Richard Cameron}!


To PGI:

I don't like this boating fix as stated. I think it is a step in the right direction but I think that this could cause unforeseen problems with other builds.

If you want to implement something like this I think it should be as a quirk of individual mechs. IE. Give an AWS a higher ppc cap than a Stalker, not a blanket rule across all mechs.


I also REALLY like the heat changes I think they are much needed. I think starting at 150% is a little high. I think the dmg should scale once you get past 115% or so.

My $.02

[Captain Katawa]

Not everything is supposed to carry 12 PPC. Do stalkers boat PPCs only in battle tech?
No? Then what is going on here?

And Jagermechs are not supposed to have their AC40. They are just not suposed to as well as K2.
Something has to be done and the idea with hardpoint size restrictions seems to be fine to me.

If stalker had two 3slots hardpoints and four 2slots harpoints it could still boat LLs or carry both but not fourteen ppcs because he's not awesome enough for that.

Now everything is good for it's own role. Awesome is awesome a PPCing, AS7-RS scorches butts with large lasers and gauss and stalker is good for eeehhm, uuum, something, maybe.
And Cat will get back to it's role. Jager will be free to choose between AC10s or gausses which explode into his face XL Engine so it's sort of balanced, at least better than AC40.

Edited by Captain Katawa, 11 June 2013 - 01:53 PM.

[Sable]

Well my question comes along with future mechs. One mech i am looking forward too is the Warhawk or Masakari which uses 4 Clan ER PPCs. Will this heat penalty system effect this mech in the same way when its one of the stock variants for it? Also mechs like the Nova will be drastically effected by this, a mech built on boating lasers and will be forced to not ever group fire because of such a system. Just looking for your thoughts and/or confirmation that you have considered future mech builds are also under consideration with such a system.

[Chavette]

Lostdragon, on 11 June 2013 - 01:44 PM, said:

I think the boating heat penalty is double plus ungood. The game is already complicated enough, there is no need to make the learning curve steeper by assigning arbitrary values for each weapon to be considered boated. This will break some good builds that are not OP and it will probably not have the desired result if you can just fire 3 PPCs then fire 3 more 0.5 s later.

I firmly believe the problem can be solved with a lower heat cap and higher dissipation. Going this route might require adjusting heat values on individual weapons but it is far less convoluted and much easier for players to understand.

If you implement the system you have outlined you are going to wind up with top tier players who understand all the mechanics taking advantage of the way the system works to crush those who will not grasp the nuances of the game. Fun games that attract large audiences are easy to learn and difficult to master. The pendulum for MWO is swinging toward difficult to learn and difficult to master which is not going to be good for the game in the long run.

I agree. This magic with the numbers game will mean nothing once a mech that can mount 2xgauss 2xPpc comes out... are they gonna make a 1 heat weapon get a 1O heat penalty? lol
These workarounds arent helping...

Edited by Chavette, 11 June 2013 - 01:54 PM.

[PraetorRUS]

I think it's a bad idea, 'cos it will add another really strange and complicated rule to the game.

How are you suppose to let newbies some knowledge about things like 'you can't fire more then 6 mlasers at once and more than 3ppc at once and so on'?

Hidden rules like this is just a bad design and you will have a lot of problems with them later, trying to balance new mechs/clan tech and so on.

I'm pretty sure that damage to internals if you are overheat is pretty enough to balance high alpha builds.

Edited by PraetorRUS, 11 June 2013 - 01:56 PM.

[FactorlanP]

150% is too high of a threshold to have much effect... I would prefer 120% or so.

Hopefully, the Devs are going to apply the heat penalties on a mech by mech basis, like an additional "quirk"...

If a mech is designed to boat a particular weapon, then let the penalty threshold make sense. Let's not overly penalize the Awesome, for instance, when it's the Stalkers that seem to be the real issue.