1263 replies to this topic

[JDH4mm3r]

don't need any penalties outside of what currently exists atm. don't break the game any further than it is.

[Boogie Man]

SMDMadCow, on 11 June 2013 - 12:39 PM, said:

This "fix" is entirely too clunky.
All you have to do is crank the heat on PPCs to 10 and ERs to 15 per shot.

This is exactly what they need to do.

[TostitoBandito]

If you do this, the ability to macro UAC5 cycle times and circumvent jamming MUST be addressed. With three of them you can fire one every 0.37 seconds with no risk of jamming, and these heat penalties would not apply. Even if the heat penalties did apply every third shot, it generates so little heat that it wouldn't really break it.

Plus, this needs to be fixed anyways. People choosing to run macros should not be able to completely circumvent the only drawback of this weapon.

[Rippthrough]

Suprentus, on 11 June 2013 - 01:07 PM, said:

Oh, go take a nap. You know the game is supposed to have imbalances, right? This isn't chess. Every build has weaknesses, and if you're a true gamer, you'd be able to exploit those weaknesses instead of crying about them on the forums.

You do know you're in a thread about balance right?
Poor troll is poor.

[Chavette]

Boogie Man, on 11 June 2013 - 01:55 PM, said:

This is exactly what they need to do.

They shouldn't, the alpha fix must apply for all weapons, missiles, ballistic, even the ones that dont produce heat at all.

[ShadowSpirit]

I think the heat scale in this game is pretty good. Increase the penalties for overheating but don't penalize people for logically grouping weapons. What you just suggested further marginalizes heat sinks.

First coolant flush and now "weapon group penalty" ? Indecisive much? You guys are missing the forest for the trees in this game. You need to quit focusing on the solo game and start putting more work into the team play / group play aspects.

That's where the money is at and you will see a shift in the tactics and methods used. You are balancing this game with a hodgepodge of newbies and veterans all in the same mix. Matchmaker is borked man. Why yes ... my 4 PPC stalker did blow a stock jenner out of the water in one shot ... no surprise there ...

Edited by ShadowSpirit, 11 June 2013 - 02:06 PM.

[Captain Katawa]

Boogie Man, on 11 June 2013 - 01:55 PM, said:

This is exactly what they need to do.

How about one PPC mechs?
What if my mech runs medlasers + a single PPC?

[Fut]

Obadiah333, on 11 June 2013 - 11:12 AM, said:

150%! How about 100%, you know, your ACTUAL limit to heat tolerance

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 11 June 2013 - 11:13 AM, said:

Also 150% is way too high. Whats wrong with 100% and forcing mechs to be built for more heat efficiency rather than just DHS in the engine and then as many guns as you can cram onto the mech?

150% seems way to high.
It'd be nice if logic took hold of this one, and the limit was set at 100%... I mean, it's called 100% for a reason, right?

[Captain Katawa]

ShadowSpirit, on 11 June 2013 - 02:00 PM, said:

I think the heat scale in this game is pretty good. Increase the penalties for overheating but don't penalize people for logically grouping weapons.

What you just suggested further marginalizes heat sinks.

First coolant flush and now "weapon group penalty" ? Indecisive much?

Also sounds good.
Lets think that override saferty now works like rocket doors so it's either toggled on or off. When safety is off you can fire as much as you want BUT heating more than 100% will hurt and heating further will HURT. When safety is on you will get same damage but only after 120% but you also are turned off which is a huge disadvangtage in fight.

So lets think that you shot an alpha that heated you up to 150% which is a lot, with safety off you get 50 damage to internals, or 30 with safety on but you also will be stunned.

Edited by Captain Katawa, 11 June 2013 - 02:10 PM.

[Dude42]

SSRM feedback: They need a damage per missiles buff for them to still be at all viable. I'll be dropping SSRM2s from all builds in this case, I'd have a better chance and do more damage with SRM2s. Making a weapons system completely pointless is never the way to go.

Heat Damage feedback: 110% or 120% as a damage threshold would be more appropriate, with 130%+ having increasing chances for critical hits. What kind of alpha do you have to do to even hit 150%? Fire all 6 PPCs at 99%? Yea that's not even going to be noticed by a normal player. Bring heat management back to the game as a real mechanic. Also, remember it should take longer for the mech to cool while it is shut down, due to the coolant not flowing through the heatsinks, as per TT. Not sure if it's in the game currently, just tossing it out there.

Heat Stacking Penalties: This is just silly. The real way to balance the boating issue is using a stiffer heat scale(see above) and increasing the PPC and ERPPC heat back to where they should be, as well as reducing the projectile speeds, and removing instant convergence. Problem solved. This... This should never have been dreamed up, as it makes no sense.

Edited by Dude42, 11 June 2013 - 02:10 PM.

[topgun505]

I think these changes are a step in the right direction. Is it the final fix? Probably not. I expect the threshold limit will need to change to 125% instead of 150%.

Also, three PPCs is still pretty steep. But that change plus maybe increasing the ERPPC/PPC heat by 1 might be enough.

This fix will not logically work on boating gauss rifles since they only produce like 1 heat to begin with but then again they are so heavy that you can't really have more than two on most units.

[Thorqemada]

S-SRM changes:

The solution will simply kill S-SRM for non boaters.

It does not count in that you can defend damaged parts by moving and twisting.

It does not reflect the reality the the CT is the biggest part of almost any Mech and that up to 80% of the Players aim at the CT anyway with any weapon:
http://mwomercs.com/...at-enemy-mechs/

SSRM and LRM would be perfect weapons for People who have injuries or disabilties (1 crippled Hand etc.) to use while playing MWO.
LRM still need a broad set of tactical skill (more than click&boom weapons) and SSRM are shortrange weapons that endanger the user seriously exposing him while fighting to all types of enemy fire.

The idea of Click&Boom superior to piloting-, team and tactical skills is a false assumption sometimes voiced with an intend.

Edited by Thorqemada, 11 June 2013 - 02:10 PM.

[ShadowSpirit]

Fut, on 11 June 2013 - 02:04 PM, said:

150% seems way to high. It'd be nice if logic took hold of this one, and the limit was set at 100%... I mean, it's called 100% for a reason, right?

They need to implement all of the penaties that came with getting hot in the board game.

"Heat buildup is a major limiting factor of the game, and overheating a unit can have many negative affects such as penalties to weapon accuracy, slower movement, or even detonation of any ammunition carried by the Mech."

1) Slow the mechs down when they get hot. You reduce torso twist/turn/speed and people will really focus on heat efficiency
2) Accuracy is everything. Start making that reticle blink in/out or fade with heat.
3) Mech hot, mech go boom. As outlined in the suggestion I like it but I think 150% is too high. Anything over 110% (and it should vary based on # on heat sinks or overall heat efficiency of the build)....

Edited by ShadowSpirit, 11 June 2013 - 02:11 PM.

[PhoenixFire55]

Finally! About damn time alpha builds will suffer.

However, you only mentioned SSRMs undergoing changes due to CT-only hits. What about LRMs and their CT-only hits??

[FactorlanP]

Fut, on 11 June 2013 - 02:04 PM, said:

150% seems way to high.
It'd be nice if logic took hold of this one, and the limit was set at 100%... I mean, it's called 100% for a reason, right?

Well, I think there should be a little wiggle room above 100%.

Think of it like a submarine. They are rated for a certain depth, everyone knows they can go deeper, but the manufacturer only guarantees them to the rated depth.

That said, 150% is waaaaaaaaay to high! If a mech could go to 149% without taking internal damage, why didn't the manufacturer move the auto shutdown point much closer to the the point at which damage actually occurs?

Why would a manufacturer build in such an ENORMOUS safety margin?

It makes no sense at all.

[mania3c]

Fut, on 11 June 2013 - 02:04 PM, said:

150% seems way to high.
It'd be nice if logic took hold of this one, and the limit was set at 100%... I mean, it's called 100% for a reason, right?

When emergency shutdown occurs? at 100%? if yes.. damage should kick immediately.. 110-120% maybe..but 100% is too early I think..

[Fut]

ShadowSpirit, on 11 June 2013 - 02:10 PM, said:

They need to implement all of the penaties that came with getting hot in the board game.

"Heat buildup is a major limiting factor of the game, and overheating a unit can have many negative affects such as penalties to weapon accuracy, slower movement, or even detonation of any ammunition carried by the Mech."

1) Slow the mechs down when they get hot. You reduce torso twist/turn/speed and people will really focus on heat efficiency
2) Accuracy is everything. Start making that reticle blink in/out or fade with heat.
3) Mech hot, mech go boom. As outlined in the suggestion I like it but I think 150% is too high. Anything over 110% (and it should vary based on # on heat sinks or overall heat efficiency of the build)....

Damn. I wish this would be implemented!
Would really make Alpha-Strikes what they were intended to be - last ditch efforts, or at the very least a risky move.
Alpha-Warrior: Online will never be as much fun as MechWarrior: Online.

Edited by Fut, 11 June 2013 - 02:17 PM.

[RiceyFighter]

This patch will indirectly buff the HGN 732 with its 3 ppc 1 Gauss build.

You need to treat ER PPC and PPC the same thing or PPC stalkers can do 3 PPC 3 ER PPC alpha. To prevent the indirect buff to HGN 732 it should be 2 PPC threshold not 3.

[TekGnosis]

Ok, so let me get this straight.

The balance mechanism proposed has the following properties:

It does not address future meta.
It is arbitrary by nature.
It must be re-evaluated (arbitrarily) each time any weapon impacted is changed in stats...
It is not intuitive or obvious to a person using the mechlab who does not read forums.
It creates new mini-game that can be macro'd away, penalizing only those 'not in the know'.

Seriously?

The meta for high alpha will continue until brawling is possible within the game mechanic. It is not currently, as heat sinks only increase scale and not dissipation significantly. Therefore there is no reason not to use the capacity given (in whatever meta skirts the new mechanic) to 'heat dump' to that maximum and return to cover.

As it stands now, there is essentially no way to achieve more than ~9-10dps sustained (usually much less) out of non-gimmick builds due to heat limitations. The first clue that we have a problem is that brawling builds in MWO have FAR more heat sinks than similar builds did in TT, and are still not competitive. Why brawl then if dps is inherently nerfed?

We are being instructed by the game mechanics to choose Alpha as a combat path. As high alpha weapons also happen to be long range... ... ... What meta was expected to emerge from the playerbase?

Meanwhile, I'm going to go fetch a G15, and set up a .5s offset alpha macro. Good job promoting Logitech corp products?

[Rigmoran]

SMDMadCow, on 11 June 2013 - 12:39 PM, said:

This "fix" is entirely too clunky.
All you have to do is crank the heat on PPCs to 10 and ERs to 15 per shot.

That's the craziest thing I've heard in a long time. Why would they want to take an idea from that silly old Battletech game? It's not like MWO is based, seemingly more loosely by the day, on Battletech or any of the MechWarrior games that came afterwards...