1263 replies to this topic

[Takony]

Havok1978, on 12 June 2013 - 12:33 AM, said:

it means you can't run around alpha, alpha, shutdown, alpha... theres gonna be alot more time running around cooling down and bitching about the heat on your ppc boat before you can attempt to 1 shot someone again.

I think you are missing the point of the objections raised in the the replies.

In a nutshell: the typical 2PPC+Gauss heavy/assault was not and will not be in danger of even overheating if played properly.
The "fix" proposed by PGI will not even effect the current meta in the heavy/assault world.

I personally don't give a rat's behind about the high damage pinpoint alphas, because I can live with them: get some, give some.

But the point is: this fix won't affect the typical builds, just complicate matters for select mediums/lights, and maybe, maybe affect 4+PPC Stalkers/ 4PPC Atlas RS, but then again we have Cool Shot ...

The meta you seem to strive for, in which having multiple different weapon systems on a mech is a viable option as opposed to the current meta where you either deliver devastating pinpoint damage at long/med range immediately in one shot, or you are doing it wrong, is indeed seems desirable, but the proposed fix does not help to reach this goal.

I feel, that heat scale effects and (Oh God Noes!) maybe buffing/making other weapons (SRM, lasers in general, smaller caliber AC-s) viable/effective, might do the trick. Or might not.

Deep inside I doubt that high burst damage will ever lose its dominant position in PVP, but I'm looking forward to proven wrong, but by interesting new options/choices, rather than by stupid limitations.

And as many pointed out: people CAN aim. Even me, and I'm old and usually sleepy by the time I get to play MWO, and as average a player as one can be: hitting select components, coring a mech is not a big deal with the right weapons.

[Victor Morson]

Havok1978, on 12 June 2013 - 01:11 AM, said:

actually I *dont* live in some TT world, I use these builds effectively already.. fact is you know NOTHING about what I do or dont do ingame.

tinfoil sword of QQ tears..deflected.

I've run across you enough times in the actual game to know exactly what kind of builds you run, and they are not good. This is in addition to your statements like "Run 1 ML and a LPL on a Hunchback!" because that would be one God awful POS Hunchback.

This misguided belief that "anything can be made to work!" is just plain wrong. Exploiting the best designs and team layouts is where the game begins, not the first shot fired. If you are fighting someone of exactly even skill in a Frankenmech with an optimized 'mech - in particular if mediums are forced to become Frankens - you've already won the battle.

Just like if one design was forced to stagger into two shots, and another could deliver everything in one - if the skill is in the same range - the one that can deliver shots in one wins.

Back to the topic at hand, the nerf only hurts the 'mechs that aren't the problem. It does nothing to the best 'mechs and everything to those that need, if anything, buffs.

Edited by Victor Morson, 12 June 2013 - 01:18 AM.

[Nik Reaper]

Kitane, on 11 June 2013 - 11:11 AM, said:

1) Treat ER PPC and PPCs as a one type of weapon, ER LL and LL too.

2) Set the PPC limit to 2, 3 PPC + Gauss builds should already be affected by a penalty.

3) AC20 should be limited to one, with a significant heat penalty for firing two at once.

4) 150% heat limit is not going to have any noticeable effect on the game. Most builds will never get that high even if they tried.

This, ^ this and this . The heat limit should be about 110~115%.
Also if brawling is to come back some increase to srm seems needed as they are the answer to low weigh good payoff for short range only.

Edited by Nik Reaper, 12 June 2013 - 01:18 AM.

[PhoenixFire55]

RiceyFighter, on 11 June 2013 - 02:14 PM, said:

This patch will indirectly buff the HGN 732 with its 3 ppc 1 Gauss build.

You need to treat ER PPC and PPC the same thing or PPC stalkers can do 3 PPC 3 ER PPC alpha. To prevent the indirect buff to HGN 732 it should be 2 PPC threshold not 3.

I second that. 732 one-shots any light it looks at.

mania3c, on 11 June 2013 - 02:12 PM, said:

When emergency shutdown occurs? at 100%? if yes.. damage should kick immediately.. 110-120% maybe..but 100% is too early I think..

Shutdown is there for a reason. I think you should have a 'chance' (like 25%) to blow yourself up if you go into shutdown even just above 100%. Above 110% - 35% chance, above 120% - 45% chance and so on. If you override shut down you should take damage 100% times.

[Havok1978]

Victor Morson, on 12 June 2013 - 01:10 AM, said:

I don't need to, I think everyone already realizes that from the posts you've been making. You keep unrealistically expecting people to run horrendous builds, because you want people to run Frankenmechs, but you want this in the same meta with very optimized designs.

I don't even understand what you are thinking even from a Frankenmech POV. That is literally a situation nobody wins (Except the top tier snipers, but they might even feel bad about it).

EDIT: Also that's not even opinion. It's right there in the OP. The Hunchback will have to stagger it's fire, the Highlander will not. Black is white, up is down.

frakenmech? LoL ya its a frakenmech.. 9ML's is soooo fraken and broken... oh wait you dont frontline a hunchie.. and the only "people" critiqueing my posts are same ones such as yourself who have been on the QQ train since yesterday. I just got on here an hour or so ago to poke you with a stick...

you have made no valid points and as the tinfoil hat wearer you are you take what paul said as fact when he clearly said it was an example which means it hasnt been implemented yet and on a side note if you keep on boasting about your highlander being uneffected dont be suprised if he looks at this thread and says.. you know he is right lets scale it back to hitting that mech next... LoL troll on

[Victor Morson]

The thing that scares me about saying that is next they'll think we want to nerf the 732. I, at least, do not. I am saying it is ludicrous to nerf the energy boat mediums that aren't causing anyone any harm and are in no way OP to get at nerfing a gimmicky sniper that's not half as good as it's job as the alternatives.

I'm not saying flip this and nerf big guns only or something. I'm saying that PGI should forget this entire announcement ever happened and immediately go back to the drawing board to address the topic at a later time.

[WolvesX]

Imagine if they would have thought out a good concept with reasonable balance!

HOW MUCH PRAISE AND HONORING WOULD BE IN THIS THREAD!

[Havok1978]

Victor Morson, on 12 June 2013 - 01:14 AM, said:

I've run across you enough times in the actual game to know exactly what kind of builds you run, and they are not good. This is in addition to your statements like "Run 1 ML and a LPL on a Hunchback!" because that would be one God awful POS Hunchback.

This misguided belief that "anything can be made to work!" is just plain wrong. Exploiting the best designs and team layouts is where the game begins, not the first shot fired. If you are fighting someone of exactly even skill in a Frankenmech with an optimized 'mech - in particular if mediums are forced to become Frankens - you've already won the battle.

Just like if one design was forced to stagger into two shots, and another could deliver everything in one - if the skill is in the same range - the one that can deliver shots in one wins.

Back to the topic at hand, the nerf only hurts the 'mechs that aren't the problem. It does nothing to the best 'mechs and everything to those that need, if anything, buffs.

I didnt say run 1 ml 1 lpl on an HB.. YOU said that in an effort to twist my words.. and ya i have ran across you a few times in game and over you most of them.. so your highlander isnt effected? neither is mine.. it shouldnt be.. but those cool 5ppc cataphracts with no leg armor you guys like to use will be

[Victor Morson]

Havok1978, on 12 June 2013 - 01:21 AM, said:

frakenmech? LoL ya its a frakenmech.. 9ML's is soooo fraken and broken... oh wait you dont frontline a hunchie.. and the only "people" critiqueing my posts are same ones such as yourself who have been on the QQ train since yesterday. I just got on here an hour or so ago to poke you with a stick...

you have made no valid points and as the tinfoil hat wearer you are you take what paul said as fact when he clearly said it was an example which means it hasnt been implemented yet and on a side note if you keep on boasting about your highlander being uneffected dont be suprised if he looks at this thread and says.. you know he is right lets scale it back to hitting that mech next... LoL troll on

Given the serious number of balance issues that got added against our will, buffed and nerfed endlessly in ways no one wanted until either their removal or nerfing into non-consequence - not to mention technical issues that got injected - do you really have the gall to call anyone a "tinfoil hat" for pointing out a proposed system sounds absolutely horrendous and missed the mark by a mile?

I hope sincerely you are right, and this was just a proposal from Paul. I would personally love to read him post in here or make another announcement that's pretty much "Yeah, I see the problems, good lookin' out guys." Do you know why that is even a possibility of happening? Because we're being damned vocal about it.

If we adopted this "wait and see" attitude there would be a 100% chance this would arrive, screw the game up, then absolutely stick around against everyone's wishes while it gets nerfed out of existence (See: The way ECM was handled.)

It's not a conspiracy if it feels like we go through something like this every 3-4 months.

WolvesX, on 12 June 2013 - 01:23 AM, said:

Imagine if they would have thought out a good concept with reasonable balance!

HOW MUCH PRAISE AND HONORING WOULD BE IN THIS THREAD!

I've got tons of praise for the last patch (if a few minor complaints) as a huge step in the right direction.

I'm not one of those people that comes here only to complain because I enjoy complaining. Between the last patch and this one I've barely been around at all. I had very high hopes that this patch would continue the trend of inching weapons up that needed upgrading - maybe even seeing 2.0 SRMs back.

Instead I got a montage of non-logic resulting in breaking things that are fine to fix things that aren't broke.

Havok1978, on 12 June 2013 - 01:23 AM, said:

I didnt say run 1 ml 1 lpl on an HB.. YOU said that in an effort to twist my words.. and ya i have ran across you a few times in game and over you most of them.. so your highlander isnt effected? neither is mine.. it shouldnt be.. but those cool 5ppc cataphracts with no leg armor you guys like to use will be

Are you honestly complaining about a 'mech with no leg armor? Do you really think that needs a nerf? That says many, many things right there.

I see a design like that and I think "Hell yeah, free kill" not "NERF IT!"

EDIT: Is there even a Phract that can FIT 5 PPCs? I thought the max was 4. Maybe I'm overlooking one.

EDIT 2: I'd be more worried about our 2 PPC / 1 Gauss & 3 PPC Phracts because guess what? They aren't being nerfed.

Edited by Victor Morson, 12 June 2013 - 01:31 AM.

[WolvesX]

Hunchback 4P OP you heard it here first!

[pesco]

Re heat penalty: Hahahaha, band-aiding over the breakage caused by not doing heat properly. Nice to see you acknowledge that.

Re overheat damage: See above!

Re MG damage: Ah, 1DPS, you're getting closer to the AC/2 where it should be...

Re Streak SRM targeting: Why do they still all fire AND all hit? Why don't you just go read the book and make the targeting behave the way it should?



Man, I really wish you guys knew what you were doing, but you don't.

Edited by pesco, 12 June 2013 - 01:35 AM.

[FaleBowt]

150% heat is a good starting point. For those of you complaining that it's too high I do agree but it would be ignorant for them to start at 100%.

What I assume (read hope) is that they're going to check stats to see how many mechs blow up. If the high heat alpahs aren't diminished enough they drop it to 140% check again...130%...too many 135%..etc etc until they find the perfect point.

It would be rediculotarded if they went immediately to 100% and every mech was blowing up making the game unplayable and would have to hot fix it to remove this aspect of the patch.

-FB

[Onmyoudo]

This is a poor solution, and Victor has the right of it. The proposed solution is so tangental to the issues it might as well not exist, merely serving to add another complicated behind-the-scenes system to confuse new players or even players that don't forum browse (which according to PGI themselves is the majority of the players).

[Havok1978]

Victor Morson, on 12 June 2013 - 01:29 AM, said:

Given the serious number of balance issues that got added against our will, buffed and nerfed endlessly in ways no one wanted until either their removal or nerfing into non-consequence - not to mention technical issues that got injected - do you really have the gall to call anyone a "tinfoil hat" for pointing out a proposed system sounds absolutely horrendous and missed the mark by a mile?

I hope sincerely you are right, and this was just a proposal from Paul. I would personally love to read him post in here or make another announcement that's pretty much "Yeah, I see the problems, good lookin' out guys." Do you know why that is even a possibility of happening? Because we're being damned vocal about it.

If we adopted this "wait and see" attitude there would be a 100% chance this would arrive, screw the game up, then absolutely stick around against everyone's wishes while it gets nerfed out of existence (See: The way ECM was handled.)

It's not a conspiracy if it feels like we go through something like this every 3-4 months.



I've got tons of praise for the last patch (if a few minor complaints) as a huge step in the right direction.

I'm not one of those people that comes here only to complain because I enjoy complaining. Between the last patch and this one I've barely been around at all. I had very high hopes that this patch would continue the trend of inching weapons up that needed upgrading - maybe even seeing 2.0 SRMs back.

Instead I got a montage of non-logic resulting in breaking things that are fine to fix things that aren't broke.



Are you honestly complaining about a 'mech with no leg armor? Do you really think that needs a nerf? That says many, many things right there.

I see a design like that and I think "Hell yeah, free kill" not "NERF IT!"

EDIT: Is there even a Phract that can FIT 5 PPCs? I thought the max was 4. Maybe I'm overlooking one.

EDIT 2: I'd be more worried about our 2 PPC / 1 Gauss & 3 PPC Phracts because guess what? They aren't being nerfed.

CTF1X
and you got the mudslinging started way back in this thread.
want to debate a topic? ill debate a topic, want to sling mud? i can do that too.

bottomline is each mech has a role on the battlefield, moving a mech from its respective role means your gonna lose *most* the time. at the moment due to ppc boating mechs have lost this identity.

while a person *can* use a mech out of its role its not going to perform as well in that role. atm all you really see are ppc boats and lrm boats. its old and tired and so is this thread.

One thing you defintely have right is PGI will do what PGI does, and it doesnt matter if we the players like it or not.
we didnt want coolant flush, we have coolant flush, we didnt want 3pv, 3pv is on its way. ECM is called guardian when its really angel the list goes on and on.

I've played mechwarrior since dos days with the powerhits set all the way thru till now, i rarely play TT. I used TT more as a tool for playing mechwarrior pen and paper rpg.

this game is broke, its getting better and the only way they will fix it is if they first smash thier fingers with a hammer then deal with it, cuz not hitting your finger in the first place isnt in thier mindset.
I'd rather see sized hardpoints as a means of balanceing

[Capt Cole 117]

Victor Morson, on 12 June 2013 - 01:08 AM, said:

So what you are saying is this:
"I run terrible builds, but I won't be hurt. Therefor you wear a tinfoil hat!"

I hate to break it to you but laser banked mediums and lights are somewhat underpowered already. Right on the cusp. "Making it chainfire and manage it's heat" is crippling to these sorts of builds.

So while you're running around in a Hunchback playing this oddball chainfire/alpha/heat game, I'll be shooting you right in the freakin' face with my 3 PPC/1 Gauss Highlander. I've got the same damage, accuracy and power as before, and you don't even have that.

I don't know why you think this is a good thing. It's literally zero impact to the best builds that started this in the first place.

Victor Morson, on 12 June 2013 - 01:05 AM, said:

It's right there in the OP clear as crystal, if you take the time to realize what they're saying.

Heat penalties for PPCs kick in at 4. 4. This means 3 PPC + 1 Gauss = No penalty.

Now, over to the BJ1X - now you've got to stagger your fire into multiple groups split a half second apart, meaning you'll miss tons of open shots, lower your overall accurate damage, etc. A lot of the time your window for hitting a target is small, forcing you to fire twice to output the same damage destroys that. They're only option (to be effective) is to run multiples.

The very example in the OP used a Hunchback - VERY specifically a Hunchback.

So 4 PPC Stalkers take a minor heat nerf (provided ER PPCs count as PPCs), 3 PPC + 1 Gauss Highlander/Misery take no penalty. The upcoming Victor with it's sturdy armor and twin Gauss support (on top of PPCs) will be in there soon as well.

The best snipers in the game: 1
A lot of mediums/lights that rely on laser & missile banks: 0

I hope I didn't make you choke on your popcorn.

Only two mechs have 8 energy hard points, so its not a widespread nerf to lights and mediums, few have more then four of a single hardpoint type. With the BJ1X, I could have two groups of four medium lasers, or I could carry a mix of mlas and slas, I won’t be “missing a ton of open shots” and my total damage won’t drop dramatically.

PPC shots move at 2000 arbitrary units per second, gauss at 1200. If you fire them simultaneously at a moving target, either the ppcs or gauss will miss unless your close to the target. And how could you know that 3 ppcs wouldn’t incur a heat penalty, the numbers haven’t been released yet.

I'll have you know I'm enjoying my popcorn very much.

[fil5000]

I'm a little lost as to why in a system where we have so many levers available to balance weapons, there's development effort going in to adding another one. Between weight, crits, heat, damage, cycle time, beam duration, travel time and hardpoints, I don't see why it's necessary to add another way to control and restrict weapon use. If PPC boating is a problem, then make PPCs heavier, or hotter, or slow the projectile down, or make the cycle time longer. Using the 4P as an example is baffling as well, as I firing nine medium lasers at once already generates so much heat that you're not doing it more than twice without shutting down, and it's already balanced by having a great big target on your shoulder that will remove three quarters of your weapons if you shoot it.

[Tomo3 14]

Some time ago you nerf SRM and SRM become in **** . Now you nerf SSRM ... **** , when again will be close fights ??? I forget when last time kill LONG mech like STK with PPC or ER PPC from something close like atlas AC/20 + 3 SRM 6 + 2 ML or STK 4 SRM 6 + 4 ML . Why you just dont want to NEFR PPC ? In BattleTech its one of the most hot weapons , that can melt mech. Nope , you increase cd of ppc , and its dont making any sense , because PPC boats dont fire by cd . Now you creating a huge system .... Facepalm , just facepalm .

Edited by Tomo3 14, 12 June 2013 - 01:54 AM.

[Salticidae]

This wont work, im running my misery with 4 PPCs 21 double heat sinks. now your just telling me I have to run it with 3 PPCs and a gauss rifle. my swayback with go from 9 medium to 6 medium and 3 small pulse and I can still alpha on both and avoid this penalty. Your spending all this time changing the UI to make it easyier on new players then confuse the hell out of them with this.

[Victor Morson]

Capt Cole 117, on 12 June 2013 - 01:48 AM, said:

Only two mechs have 8 energy hard points, so its not a widespread nerf to lights and mediums, few have more then four of a single hardpoint type.

There are a large number with 6 and it will decimate them.

This will also destroy builds you're not even considering, like 4x AC/2 Jagger, that aren't even very good to begin with.

Zyne, on 12 June 2013 - 01:54 AM, said:

This wont work, im running my misery with 4 PPCs 21 double heat sinks. now your just telling me I have to run it with 3 PPCs and a gauss rifle. my swayback with go from 9 medium to 6 medium and 3 small pulse and I can still alpha on both and avoid this penalty. Your spending all this time changing the UI to make it easyier on new players then confuse the hell out of them with this.

Zyne, on 12 June 2013 - 01:54 AM, said:

This wont work, im running my misery with 4 PPCs 21 double heat sinks. now your just telling me I have to run it with 3 PPCs and a gauss rifle. my swayback with go from 9 medium to 6 medium and 3 small pulse and I can still alpha on both and avoid this penalty. Your spending all this time changing the UI to make it easyier on new players then confuse the hell out of them with this.

While I was going to say it's silly you'd even be forced to change in for some Small Pulse, it is another valid aspect to point out by replacing screwed weapons with something of equal synergy renders the effect moot anyway, even if it impacts the 'mechs overall DPS.

[Greg Hudson]

Great work! Looking forward to see and test it on the battlefield!