1263 replies to this topic

[4lex]

Maybe its been said before i didnt read the whole tread but imo, instead of ballancing med laser around the, 4p why not give the 4p a special quirk like " this mech can fire x laser with no heat penality" this way we could have a more homogenous system like... Every time you fire more than 2 of the same wepon you get X heat penality. And the awsome could become THE ppc mech or fix the A1 srm boat problem.

[Havok1978]

4lex, on 12 June 2013 - 05:32 AM, said:

Maybe its been said before i didnt read the whole tread but imo, instead of ballancing med laser around the, 4p why not give the 4p a special quirk like " this mech can fire x laser with no heat penality" this way we could have a more homogenous system like... Every time you fire more than 2 of the same wepon you get X heat penality. And the awsome could become THE ppc mech or fix the A1 srm boat problem.

what your saying was addressed in the OP....
welcome to the TL;DR age I guess....
#yolo swag and all that jazz

[WolvesX]

STOP COMPLAINING ABOUT THE CHANGES VOCAL MINORITY ALREADY!

[Sudden Reversal]

This reeks of the system not being able to do what should be done, so go shoehorn some clunky 'solution' that achieves more problems than it seeks to fix.

Sounds like really bad idea that won't address so many current boating high alpha builds by it's own admission!(3xPPC1xGR anyone?)

Heat needs to be managed, but penalising specific weapons in arbitrary groups is not the way to go.

Craptastic!

Edited by Sudden Reversal, 13 June 2013 - 01:05 AM.

[Aim64C]

4lex, on 12 June 2013 - 05:32 AM, said:

Maybe its been said before i didnt read the whole tread but imo, instead of ballancing med laser around the, 4p why not give the 4p a special quirk like " this mech can fire x laser with no heat penality" this way we could have a more homogenous system like... Every time you fire more than 2 of the same wepon you get X heat penality. And the awsome could become THE ppc mech or fix the A1 srm boat problem.

As I understand it - each chassis (and variant?) has a predefined number of hardpoints that can fire simultaneously without experiencing a heat penalty.

Now, what would be funny - is if we were to use real-world considerations for restricting simultaneous fire. Firing multiple PPCs at the same time would cause your mech to explode in a vortex of random particle radiation (Retina-burning beautiful, I'd imagine) - which would necessitate proper consecutive fire (link-fire) to prevent anomalous behavior.

Or if you went to fire two or more Gauss Rifles at the same time, and your arms twisted all kinds of stupid and tried to slam into each other (through your torso) because of the massive magnetic fields involved.

But lasers could be real-world boated without problems or restrictions to their firing distribution.

Which is why I opt for a more sophisticated hardpoint system over a the simplistic one we currently have that allows for a small laser to be turned into a PPC and a machine gun to be turned into a Gauss rifle... but an AC20 cannot become 2 machineguns.

The weapon mechanics not only favor weapons like the PPC, currently, but the hardpoint system also penalize players for wanting 2 medium lasers instead of that PPC. Simply put - you can't put two "inferior" weapon systems into the place of where a single superior system would go. Practical customization is far more limited than PGI intended with this system - yet taken to extremes that cannot be balanced.

[stjobe]

So, I've had a chance to sleep on your suggestion about boating penalties, and it's still horribly complex, doesn't do what it's intended to do, and actually punishes the wrong 'mechs and builds.

So here's what needs to be done; it's a two-step process that will involve some developer time and some testing time, but the benefit is that you'll get a game that's easier to balance, lets people build whatever builds they want, and that has heat management and aiming as major skills.

Step 1: The heat system
* Halve heat capacity
* Double heat dissipation
* Optionally: Remove or severely decrease heat cap increase from heat sinks.

I think most of us are familiar by now why this is a good idea, so I'll just say that it puts the amount of heat your alpha can generate without penalty much closer to BattleTech, and encourages both sustained fire over alphas and a diverse weapons load-out. As an added bonus, it also makes stock 'mechs much more attractive.

Step 2: The weapons
Rework all ballistics to fire in bursts of 1 second or thereabouts. After all, they're AUTOcannons and MACHINE guns, right? Something like this (example numbers to be tweaked after testing, of course):

AC/20 - 4 rounds of 5 damage in 1 second, reload time 4 seconds.
Gauss Rifle - 3 rounds of 5 damage in 0.75 seconds, reload time 4 seconds.
AC/10 - 4 rounds of 2.5 damage in 1 second, reload time 2.5 seconds.
AC/5 - 5 rounds of 1 damage in 1 second, reload time 1.5 seconds.
AC/2 - 4 rounds of .5 damage in 1 second, reload time 1 second, or continuous fire.
MG - 4 rounds of 0.25 damage in 1 second, continuous fire.

LB-10X - can have the current mechanic of 10 pellets at once. It'll make it unique, and the pellet spread should keep it from being too powerful.

PPC - Re-implement as a beam weapon. It was never a projectile weapon to start with: "PPCs fire a concentrated stream of protons or ions at a target" (sarna.net).

This will remove all pin-point damage from the game without adding RNG spread or messing with convergence, it actually adds an additional element of aiming skill for getting all your damage on-target, and in conjunction with the heat changes will make a game that's much, much closer to BattleTech than the current abomination of high-heat pin-point alpha strike point-and-click game play.

Edited by stjobe, 12 June 2013 - 06:24 AM.

[Miken]

PGI!!! just return firing delay in 0.5-1s for projectiles just like it was in CBT THATS ALL!!!

[Ngamok]

SMDMadCow, on 11 June 2013 - 12:39 PM, said:

This "fix" is entirely too clunky.
All you have to do is crank the heat on PPCs to 10 and ERs to 15 per shot.

The ion beam also extends to much farther ranges than autocannon fire, though PPCs generate large amounts of waste heat.

Right, large amounts of waste heat. Git er dun.

[Asmosis]

I still want the ability (like previous titles) to chainfire groups. In at least one of the previous titles, if you held down chainfire you would fire group 1, followed by group 2 etc etc. It didn't seem relevant before this discussion, but now it is.

Also people (inc PGI i think) don't realize how delicate the game balance is reading some of the suggestions. You don't need massive changes, you barely even need noticeable changes.

Something simple like a 10% heat penalty when a weapon fires (or is accruing heat) when over 50% heat would suffice.

With that, and a slightly reduced max heat threshold of 130-140% a standard 6 ppc stalker can still fire one alpha without overheating, but a second one would cause him to self destruct. a 6 er ppc stalker would damage self after 1 alpha from zero heat on regular maps, and would get away with simply shutting down in ice maps (20% heat bonus).

I'm using 6 ppc stalker as an example because its the worst possible scenario when looking at alphas, its also one of the worst possible builds right up there with 9 MPL hunchbacks or lrm commandos.

ER PPCS are barely usable in a boating situation, even with 4 of them a stalker is pretty much junk. they only really work well at a max of 3, ideally 2 coupled with ballistics. a 4 er ppc stalker is a pretty bad build overall, about as bad as 6 regular ppcs.

*edit*

keep ppcs as a projectile lol. It might work in a spreadsheet TT game where you don't actually SEE the lasers, but in a computer game having 30 different weapons that basically do the same thing is a dumb idea. There's quite a few more laser types coming.

Edited by Asmosis, 12 June 2013 - 06:25 AM.

[Damocles69]

stjobe, on 12 June 2013 - 06:07 AM, said:

So, I've had a chance to sleep on your suggestion about boating penalties, and it's still horribly complex, doesn't do what it's intended to do, and actually punishes the wrong 'mechs and builds.

So here's what needs to be done; it's a two-step process that will involve some developer time and some testing time, but the benefit is that you'll get a game that's easier to balance, lets people build whatever builds they want, and that has heat management and aiming as major skills.

Step 1: The heat system
* Halve heat capacity
* Double heat dissipation
* Optionally: Remove or severely decrease heat cap increase from heat sinks.

I think most of us are familiar by now why this is a good idea, so I'll just say that it puts the amount of heat your alpha can generate without penalty much closer to BattleTech, and encourages both sustained fire over alphas and a diverse weapons load-out. As an added bonus, it also makes stock 'mechs much more attractive.

Step 2: The weapons
Rework all ballistics to fire in bursts of 1 second or thereabouts. After all, they're AUTOcannons and MACHINE guns, right? Something like this (example numbers to be tweaked after testing, of course):

AC/20 - 4 rounds of 5 damage in 1 second, reload time 4 seconds.
Gauss Rifle - 3 rounds of 5 damage in 0.75 seconds, reload time 4 seconds.
AC/10 - 4 rounds of 2.5 damage in 1 second, reload time 2.5 seconds.
AC/5 - 5 rounds of 1 damage in 1 second, reload time 1.5 seconds.
AC/2 - 4 rounds of .5 damage in 1 second, reload time 1 second, or continuous fire.
MG - 4 rounds of 0.25 damage in 1 second, continuous fire.


LB-10X - can have the current mechanic of 10 pellets at once. It'll make it unique, and the pellet spread should keep it from being too powerful.

PPC - Re-implement as a beam weapon. It was never a projectile weapon to start with: "PPCs fire a concentrated stream of protons or ions at a target" (sarna.net).

This will remove all pin-point damage from the game without adding RNG spread or messing with convergence, it actually adds an additional element of aiming skill for getting all your damage on-target, and in conjunction with the heat changes will make a game that's much, much closer to BattleTech than the current abomination of high-heat pin-point alpha strike point-and-click game play.

I.... don't hate this

[Ursus_Spiritus]

Kitane, on 12 June 2013 - 05:20 AM, said:

Clan balancing is not our current problem.

You miss my point.

[AlmightyAeng]

I'm a bit confused on how you're going to set heat thresholds.

Your explanation of medium lasers and the swayback seems based off of the variant: Laser pod of 6, so the threshold for the ML on a swayback is 6. This seems to be basing the heat penalty off of the variant and quirks OF THE MECH.

With PPC's, you seem to have simply chosen a threshold of 3 because it makes sense for the weapon, regardless of what mech it's put on.

Will heat thresholds be based on 'Mech variants? Or be inherent in the weapons themselves?

Depending on the answer, PLEASE include this information in UI 2.0, whether it's related to the 'Mech or the weapon.

Hoping you can clear this up, thanks!

[Bagheera]

Dear Paul,

Why do you hate the large pulse laser so much? It was fine without the dmg bump and certainly did not need a heat increase.

Zyllos, on 11 June 2013 - 11:19 AM, said:

I thought your mech just exploded if it was WAY over 100%? I don't usually run builds that can alpha that much heat over 100% so I don't know.

Funny story, but in the Training Grounds you can blow yourself up by over-riding shutdowns. Why this never happens in a match is beyond me, but I bet it has something to do with coolant flush.

Also, if there were actual, tangible and dangerous, penalties for running at the heat threshold, then these "anti-boating" measures wouldn't be needed in the first place.

Edited by Bagheera, 12 June 2013 - 06:25 AM.

[Mechteric]

I think what would make more sense than arbitrary # of weapons based on the weapons and a further arbitrary heat penalty, would be a heat curve that starts from the moment you fire more than one of the same weapon within that 0.5 seconds or whatever. The curve doesn't need to be linear and can be a higher sloped curve for higher heat weapons.

So you could still get the effect of having 4 PPCs generating say 50% more heat, while 2 PPCs generates 10% more, 3 PPCs generate 25% more. As for the medium laser scenario, 2 Medium lasers generate 5% more heat, 3 is 10% more, 4 is 15%, and on up to maybe 50% more heat for 9, just as an example. This curve could then be further tweaked and tuned to effect.

Edited by CapperDeluxe, 12 June 2013 - 06:29 AM.

[AgentGG]

Max heat % before internal damage kicks in should be much lower than 150%. What the value should be is debatable... I'd rather see it in the 110-115% range. Gives you some breathing room to go over 100% but not an excessive amount.

Not sure about this grouping system that has been explained. It seems to be a complex answer to a PPC balancing issue that could potentially harm many other builds.

[Damocles69]

Aim64C, on 12 June 2013 - 05:24 AM, said:

I can't believe the plethora of responses in here that are just... so far off the mark it's insane. Including PGI's.

The problem - the only problem - is the hardpoint system.

The fix is simple. Give each 'hardpoint' a 2d grid to be filled with components that have a 2d space requirement. More similar to Mech Commander 2's system of handling components. Tonnage and criticals can be handled on a more global scale.

Mech 4's hardpoint setup was a little too restrictive - but the design really helped to give the various chassis their personality. At the same time, Assault mechs didn't run into near as much of a problem as they do in this game - and heavy mechs weren't as prone to exploitation of the hardpoint system.

Mechs like the Awesome could be one of the few with variants that support higher numbers of PPCs while a player in a Highlander can install two AC2's instead of almost being required to place a Gauss, AC20 or AC10 in that hardpoint to make it worth the investment.

For example - a PPC could be a 3x2 component while a large laser is a 2x2 - a 2x4 slot could hold two large lasers without opening up the option for a PPC to be installed there (since components would not be able to be rotated).

Thus - you expand your control and allowances over hardpoint loadouts while allowing players to customize their loadouts to a satisfying degree.

The problem, PGI, with the way you are trying to go about balancing weapons, presently - is that too many designs in Battletech just don't fit clearly within the distinction you wish to make. Is the BlackJack supposed to fire more than 4 medium lasers or 4 flamers at a time?

What about clan mechs like the Nova or Super Nova?

By adjusting the heat penalties to deal damage over 125% of heat capacity and implementing a better hardpoint system - the extreme point-alphas would begin to fall to the way-side (particularly as you began adjusting how heat capacity is derived).

Things like the AC40 cat/jager could be restricted out of existence (if desired) and such lethal builds restricted to Assault chassis.

These are things, PGI, that you should have thought about back in the "drawingboard" stage of this game. Many of the things you are having trouble with, currently, should have been well tested and resolved before your open beta.

Y'all need to get your **** together. You're a small developer. You don't have the resources to be mismanaging and misleading them.

Edit to address typo.

This is a fantastic idea. Would take about as much time to implement as the the heat boating penalty and solves more problems. Unlimited customaztion is great but unfortuntatly people suck and will abuse anything they can if it benefit s them. This is what should be done

Edited by Damocles69, 12 June 2013 - 06:32 AM.

[Asmosis]

Bagheera, on 12 June 2013 - 06:23 AM, said:

Funny story, but in the Training Grounds you can blow yourself up by over-riding shutdowns. Why this never happens in a match is beyond me, but I bet it has something to do with coolant flush.

Oh, I run a 6 ppc stalker from time to time, 6 er ppc stalker for lols when I want to grief light mechs.

I can guarantee you if you override a 6 er ppc stalker to fire off a 2nd (or 3rd in ice maps) alpha, you *will* explode around about 5 seconds later if you don't immediately power down (which takes about 30 seconds to cooldown, im amazed how often people use this time to RUN AWAY instead of coring me).

people don't realize quite how brutal the current heat damage is. If they simply removed the shutdown mechanic completely and DID NOTHING ELSE 5+ ppcs would disappear overnight. Not that you see them often because the build sucks

Edited by Asmosis, 12 June 2013 - 06:35 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

Aim64C, on 12 June 2013 - 05:24 AM, said:

Things like the AC40 cat/jager could be restricted out of existence (if desired) and such lethal builds restricted to Assault chassis.

What does this help? The canon Assault Mech that uses 2 AC/20s is the King Crab. And it uses 2 AC/20, an LL and an LRM (20?) launcher. That's even deadlier than the AC/40 Jager and Cats. That mech won't need an XL Engine even, and has lots of extra armor.

If the AC/40 mech is overpowered (and I might actually disagree on that), then restricting the AC/40 to a small number of mechs does nothing to help the problem. As long as overpowered game elements exist, they will be played, and they will be played a lot, and underpowered or "balanced" mechs will be played less.

Hardpoints are primarily a cosmetic tool, and a tool to make different mechs feel different.
PGI already solved the "cosmetic" problem of AC/20s on K2s and Jagermechs. I hope they'll do the same for all mechs and all weapon types.

[Bagheera]

Aim64C, on 12 June 2013 - 05:24 AM, said:

Things like the AC40 cat/jager could be restricted out of existence (if desired) and such lethal builds restricted to Assault chassis.

Okay, I know everyone hates the Jager because it can carry 2 AC20s, but look at the damn design. Sorry dude, but there is just no "hardpoint size" argument to be made about the Jager here. Never was, never will be.

It has the slots to fit them, and the arms are basically nothing but guns on a single hinge. In fact, there is (later in the timeline) a dual-gauss Jager in canon. This is one that people are just going to have to deal with.

Quote

• JM6-DG - This field refit replaces the autocannons with two Gauss Rifles and six tons of ammunition. In order to accommodate this change, the lasers were swapped out for ER Medium Lasers. The heat sinks were also upgraded to double-strength models. BV (2.0) = 1,661^[7]

FFS, the AC40 isn't even a good build unless you're pug-stomping. Stop trying to change the entire game over a one-trick-pony build.

[Tekyio Wolf]

WolvesX, on 11 June 2013 - 05:18 PM, said:

"S-SRMs are undergoing a revamp on their targeting solutions. There are 7 bones that are randomly selected by each SSRM missile. Right now, those bones are located at joints rather than center-points for each of the components. We are looking at changing that so the bones are placed further apart and more toward the center of each component. We are also looking at weighting the torso bones in a manner that make them not a priority for SSRMs. For example, all components would have a weight of 1.0. The Torsos however would take a weighting of 0.35(LT) 0.3(CT) 0.35(RT). The reasoning behind this weighting is that if all the torsos had an equal value of 1, each missile would have a 3/7 chance of going for a torso. Any sort of torso twist/movement would increase the chance of a missile in flight to hit the CT (since it’s the biggest component on a Mech) if they were to target a side torso."

This is a good idea imo. The LRMs maybe should work in a similar way.

BUT this is only a good idea, if they got there damage adjusted also. If they just hit all over the place, they will be with 1.5 dmg and 0.86 DPS, just bad.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Flamers and Machine Guns are getting a damage boost. Flamers will be increased from 0.4 damage to 0.7 damage. Machine Guns will be going from 0.08 damage per bullet to 0.1 damage per bullet. (June 18th Patch)"

Just not enough I think, especially the flamer, but a step in the right direction. Remove the cone from the MG, make them viable in higher elo.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Pulse Lasers are being normalized to have their variances standardized between the different sizes. This is in preparation of them being tuned as we move toward launch. What this directly means is that for now, Small Pulse Lasers will have their damage increased to 3.4 and their heat reduced to 2.4. Large Pulse Lasers will have their damage increased to 10.6 but their heat is also increased to 8.5. This puts all 3 pulse lasers in alignment of having an approximate 1.25 variance for DPS and a 1.3 variance for HPS. Once this is implemented into the live servers, we will be looking at how they play out and making further adjustments as needed. (June 18th Patch)"

SPLs seem to get better, we will see if they are worth the trade (ML).

MPLs needs a buff, more dps or less heat AND less duration (0.5). 2 tons should be worth it.

LPL nerf is just plain stupid. Its not a OP weapon atm, in fact its very rarely used because PPCs are so much better for various reasons.

Suggestion: Duration to 0.5, 11.5 dmg from 10 as a first step.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Heat Damage at High Heat Levels
We now have a system in test that will apply damage to your Mech’s internal center torso if your Mech exceeds 150% of its tolerable heat level. While your Mech is above 150% heat, it will take damage over time. Once your Mech has cooled below 150%, it will no longer take heat damage. Be careful with that override button or high heat alphas when you’re near your max heat threshold."

100% should be 100%, if you go higher than 110% it should damage your mech and pop your heatsinks and damage your engine.

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Heat Penalty : Just NO!

---
ALSO:

• SRMs need to do 2 dmg per rocket.
  
• LRMs need the new streak system and more damage, starting with 1.2

Just add splash damage for LBX there.