1263 replies to this topic

[Truesight]

Like i said, the Boating penaltys should be per chassis type, like the quirks for turn radius and so on.

There will be information about this in UI 2.0 (Chassis information about engine, weapons, crit slots, quirks, boating penaltys).

I do believe so till proven otherwise.

[Knechter]

The (ER-)PPC is a superior weapon by combining high projectile speed with reasonable tonnage and precise good damage.
Before introducing a heat mechanic that will eventually effect other weaponsystems fired simultaneously i would suggest to tweak some PPC characteristics.

Lower projectile speed to 900m/s and increase heat slightly by 1 or 1,5 points or introduce splash-damage to ppc's(say 7 points focused damage and 3 points splash damage).

While this would hopefully decrease the amount of PPC-boating abuse, players will find different weaponsystems to play with.

Hardpoints are a pretty good system to prevent boating of small and medium sized weapons because by limiting their number oneshot-alpha-kills are nearly impossible.

On bigger weapons like PPC's, Large Lasers or Gauss/AC20 the system isn't working quite so well.
A solution could be to either further develop the hardpoint system or adjust different weapon systems.
In case of Large Lasers it may be a idea to increase laser beam duration.

On the subject of further punishing overheating.
I very much agree with the idea. But the suggested limit of 150% is to high.
Heat up to 115% should be ok. But after that critical components should gradually fail. Ammunition explosions, blocked joints, burned heatsinks, failing life support systems(cockpit window blur), limited reactor performance, and so on.
---
And finally remove cool shots!

Edited by Knechter, 12 June 2013 - 08:29 AM.

[Aerik Lornes]

grayson marik, on 11 June 2013 - 09:48 PM, said:

Hmm sounds at least as a method... even if a clunky one.
Why not simply going the battletech way? Something similar like the TT heat penalties?
First reduced speed, then speed +aiming then shutdown and damage, risk of ammo explosion etc. etc etc.

It appears to me that TT already has a complete set of heat rules, that would just need to be translated to MWO almost 1:1 and it would be fine. And it would actually make more sense than just putting a weapon stacking penalty on top of everything...

I and others have been suggesting this since closed beta. The only thing they really need to set the basics up are to use TT values, factored by weapon recycle time as compared to the 10 second TT turn. i.e. PPC does 10 heat and 10 damage, if it cycles 3.times per 10 seconds, then it now does3.33 heat and 3.33 damage per shot, etc...

[Truesight]

Knechter, on 12 June 2013 - 08:21 AM, said:

While this would hopefully decrease the amount of ppc-boating abuse players will find different weaponsystems to play with.
hardpoints are a pretty good system to prevent boating of small and medium sized weapons because their limited number, range and damage, which doesn't allow high alpha-sniper builds.
On bigger weapons like ppcs, large lasers or gauss/ac20 the system isnt working quite so well.
A solution could be to either further develop the hardpoint system or adjust different weapon systems.

If they invent the heat penaltys chassis wise, you actually would limit the Hardpoints of that chassis, without messing around with the actual harpoints.

There will be chassis made for boating and others will just not be able to boat due to high heat penaltys for specific weapons, hell you even could specialize different chassis for different weapons (LL, PPC, ...).

This is what everyone is asking for, a nerf for all the boats (they will be limited to certain chassis, e.g. AWS, bad Stalker variants,...).

Just my 2 cents

[Calamus]

I think there are a few other ways they could be doing this. Personally, I liked the MW4 way of doing it. When you're overheated your HUD starts to flicker, and it's more difficult to pilot your mech. I also like the idea of reducing performance. Slower torso response, lower speed/acceleration/braking, damage reductions, ballistics jams (they already have it coded into UAC's), etc.

Also, i think that if your mech is running at 150% its heat capacity then you should have a chance at having ammo explosions. If it's hot enough to fry a giant robot's metal interior then it should be hot enough to ignite explosive based ammunition. For energy weapons I think there should also be a chance at component destruction. What makes a PPC so much more resilient that it doesn't melt to the point of being inoperable if the rest of the mech can't take the heat?

Edited by Calamus, 12 June 2013 - 08:35 AM.

[Rippthrough]

If it hadn't been for the stubborness about implementing heat dissipation rates, properly to start with (when the reasoning behind not doing it was a jenner build that is exactly the same as now anyway...we're back to that testing/balancing team being on a completely different planet to everyone else again...some weeks I'm not even sure if it's MWO they're actually testing), they wouldn't be going around in circles with the boating and heat balancing to start with.
A low cap and the correct heat reduction rate for DHS would make players choose the optimal weapon for a given situation, rather than that answer being 'all of them'

Edited by Rippthrough, 12 June 2013 - 08:37 AM.

[JigSaw73]

I also do not understand why 100% isn't the threshold? If your Mech keeps getting to 100% and overheating over and over it should start damaging the internals, damage the engine or have weapon explosions.

And what about system failures like HUD damage, Heat Sink failures, weapons failures, slower response (turning and/or torso twist), reduced speed, longer start-up times, slow firing rate/response...things that an overheated machine would suffer from.

[Kunae]

[Waking One]

Heat limit should be 100%, then damage depending on how much over you go, with critical damage above 150% tbh.

I'd also remove the heat ceiling increase DHS do, make everyone have the same. But increase default dissipation greatly.

And PPCs still need a nerf, too effective for the fitting reqs.

I reckon machineguns will need an even bigger buff.

Edited by Waking One, 12 June 2013 - 08:42 AM.

[WayBadMojo]

Simple solution: when any mech hits 100.000001% heat, activate the famous cockpit and crosshair shake and start causing internal crits...

The goal: Punish those pilots that laugh in the face of heat and do nothing to those that don't override and pay attention to their heat.

No applause necessary, just send money...
-Mojo

[MaddMaxx]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 12 June 2013 - 07:42 AM, said:

yes in fact he was

Seriously though, if PGI wants 150% to be the nuke cap, why not just make 150% the actual visual bar? but then that would be too high again. the 100% we have now is plenty, as witnessed by the fact that only 2 of my mechs have more than engine heatsinks slotted in them and are packed with guns, really no reason to push the heatcap past the 100% we have now except for the fact that people can't pace their shots or build balanced mechs.

Thought about the Heat Bar was well but it wouldn't matter as noted. What I would like to see though, is the Bar fills via color variation from Green, 0-30%, then Orange 31-50%, then light Red, 51-80% and then Flashing Bright Red 81-100% and when that sucker starts flashing, your damaging internals and Override simply extends the time that damage happens.

P.S. Visual queues are something all player level can easily interpret as well.

Edited by MaddMaxx, 12 June 2013 - 08:48 AM.

[Charles Seneca]

The most elegant systems are the simplest. This new system is complex and totally unnecessary.

As others have pointed out the tools to fix the problem are already in the game. The problem with PPC boating is the PPCs individual statistics made blatant by stacking.

PPCs are currently very heat efficient. The ERPPC is more heat efficient than the ERLL!! Increasing the recycle time on PPCs was totally pointless without increasing the heat to maintain the poorer heat efficiency. Increase PPC heat/second!

Mech damage at 150% heat is also pointless. Damage should start at 110%, being minor at first and graually building up to a fatal reactor explosion at 150% (possibly damaging nearby mechs).

I suggest starting with permanent destruction of a heatsink for every 10% interval beyond 100%. Making the mech less heat efficient for the duration of the match and making future overheating more likely. Rational: heatsinks can only disperse x amount of heat per second. Going beyond this capacity should cause them to malfunction or even be totally destroyed.

PGI stop making the code needlessly complex with adhoc solutions. Use what you already have. Complexity = problems.

[Gallowglas]

On a complete tangent, Soy is apparently a very positive person today!

(or just very bored)

Edited by Gallowglas, 12 June 2013 - 08:52 AM.

[DirePhoenix]

Aerik Lornes, on 12 June 2013 - 08:22 AM, said:

I and others have been suggesting this since closed beta. The only thing they really need to set the basics up are to use TT values, factored by weapon recycle time as compared to the 10 second TT turn. i.e. PPC does 10 heat and 10 damage, if it cycles 3.times per 10 seconds, then it now does3.33 heat and 3.33 damage per shot, etc...

This would also mean that armor values don't have to be doubled as well.

I had a chart somewhere in closed beta that showed that almost all our weapons in MWO are actually doing far more damage than they're "supposed" to, and in inconsistent proportions. There was a dev response that I "didn't have all the info". Also flaming from the peanut gallery about being a TT-Spetznaz or something. Also kvetching about people wanting MWO to be less "slow tanks plonking each other from across the battlefield" and more like a fast twitch-shooter.

I'll have to dig up or re-make that chart now that we've got datamined info from the game files. Or someone else can, to show what the weapon damage and heat values would need to be in order to be consistent with TT values.

Edited by DirePhoenix, 12 June 2013 - 08:59 AM.

[Lord Psycho]

I start to figure that if PGI really wants to make boats disappear... change the points of armor per tonnage back to 16 per ton..but KEEP the maximum armor point value for mechs.

Not only non-boaters will die..but boaters will actually die in a reasonable manner.

Boating should always mean sacrificing more then one value in Battletech/Mechwarrior.

I see you slow boaters.....

[Nasty McBadman]

Duck Butter, on 11 June 2013 - 11:15 AM, said:

I am in complete agreement about the heart penalty being too arbitrary.
I think taking damage at 125% heat would be a good fix and easy to implement along with a slight increase in PPC heat. This would be a serious nerf to the viability of already borderline mechs like the aforementioned swayback, and would do nothing to discourage 3 or 4 PPC boating which constitutes 90% of the abusers.

Does this mean that a stock build Awesome-9M (3 ERPPC) is an abuser build?

[TooLadyTooRest]

I am really disappointed in this "heat solution". It totally and shamelessly breaks with the realism in this game, and I can't believe that this seems to be the first post to point this out (Maybe not but I'm not gonna read through 33 pages). This solution will step over a line as there is no way to explain it in the gameworld other than "magic" or "Thus The Gods have Decreed". The fact that so few people have pointed this out, however shows me how serious this "boating issue" must be for people to be okay with such artificial measures. Something must be done.

My suggestion:
- When a mech overheats to some low level (110%?) it starts taking damage, increasing linearly as it gets hotter.
- A mech over another low threshold (120-140%?) should sustain serious damage and per haps even lose a weapon or two.
This would prevent people from firing alpha-strikes when they know it will cause them to go over that limit.
This solution is incomplete, and should be used with something else (maybe weapon coning on alpha-strikes), but will stick with realism.

BTW: Physically, heatsinks become MORE effective the hotter they get. I get that they don't work like that in this universe, but that's okay. (getting into this debate whould be silly, though).

Note on realism: Yes, this is futuristic sci-fi and has some silly physics, but it follows certain rules and is predictable. This is messing with that. It is a sellout.

EDIT: Saying boating abuses things is silly. If pointfire is a problem then some randomness should be added. It's simple. There have been many posts on that matter.

Edited by TooLadyTooRest, 12 June 2013 - 09:28 AM.

[Milt]

ok, in tt a ppc does 10 dam for 10 heat. in mwo a ppc does 25 for 20heat. with armor being at a dbl value from TT. this is one of the better balanced wpns in game. now look at the ac/5 tt 5 damage for 1 heat mwo 34 dam for 6.66 heat. in the tt game ppc's were amazing if you could handle the heat. ac/5 were meh but didnt have any heat problems.

Edited by Milt, 12 June 2013 - 09:29 AM.

[shabowie]

So to nerf 40-60 pinpoint alpha ppc boats they are gonna nerf hunchback and blackjack medium laser builds? What a dumb idea. Medium lasers have not been a balance issue, it requires great precision or fat dumb happy targets to get all that damage in one spot.

Oh and streaks are being looked at again, but still no addressing of the underlying problem, the fact that they auto hit and require no skill to use? And you guys are still babbling on about bones and how they target when streaks are still doing dumb broken **** like hit the front CT from directly behind. Fix that and make it harder to get and maintain lock. Glad I have other games to keep me busy for a while.

Edited by shabowie, 12 June 2013 - 09:42 AM.

[Thedrelle]

I don't think people are getting what they mean by 150% overheat damage. As it stands in the game, anything over 100% will damage the mech if it's running. powering down stops this damage.

I think what PGI is talking about is that if you override and fire a large heat alpha, and push your heat over 150%, you will take damage to your CT EVEN IF YOUR POWERED DOWN. this is to counteract abuse of the override feature.

PGI, please confirm or deny this, your post was unclear.

Also, everything here looks good, the damage increase to the pulse lasers are going to make them dangerous!

also also: Shadowbie, What PGI is saying is that the weapon boat limit will be specific to the type of weapon as well as the specific mech variant. where most hunchbacks would have a limit of 4 lasers, the 4P would have a higher limit, as it's designed to fire everything in it's hunch. so no worries, your hunch or blackjack shouldn't be affected overmuch.

Edited by Thedrelle, 12 June 2013 - 09:39 AM.