93 replies to this topic

[MasterErrant]

El Bandito, on 13 June 2013 - 01:49 AM, said:

The real issue with mediums is their bigger-than-lore size. Centurions and Trebuchets in particular.

no the lights are smaller than lore the commando is just about halh the height of an atlas. it should be about 2/3 (basic geometry. half one dimension of a solid keeping all other proportional and the volume and mass are 1/8 by this a com would wiegh 12.5 tons) Im pretty sure this was intentional.

thatg being said mediums are generally very heavily armed in tt the agerage being 5/8/(5) and cvarying 13 tons + of weapons.which counting ammo and hs means 1/3 of their total weight.
they are gennerally meant for raiding and support of lighter or slower heaviy mechs...not main combat.

if I take my Treb out and play wingman to an atlas we both do well.

[Coralld]

MasterErrant, on 13 June 2013 - 11:52 AM, said:

no the lights are smaller than lore the commando is just about halh the height of an atlas. it should be about 2/3 (basic geometry. half one dimension of a solid keeping all other proportional and the volume and mass are 1/8 by this a com would wiegh 12.5 tons) Im pretty sure this was intentional.

thatg being said mediums are generally very heavily armed in tt the agerage being 5/8/(5) and cvarying 13 tons + of weapons.which counting ammo and hs means 1/3 of their total weight.
they are gennerally meant for raiding and support of lighter or slower heaviy mechs...not main combat.

if I take my Treb out and play wingman to an atlas we both do well.

But then it goes back to my question again, why run a Medium at all? I love Mediums, I love my Hunchy, Blackjack, and Cicada, but I want to be just as effect as a Light or Heavy. I don't want to be just effective because I am being ignored.

[Trauglodyte]

Coralld, on 13 June 2013 - 12:46 PM, said:

But then it goes back to my question again, why run a Medium at all? I love Mediums, I love my Hunchy, Blackjack, and Cicada, but I want to be just as effect as a Light or Heavy. I don't want to be just effective because I am being ignored.

So you want to face tank other mechs in a Medium?

[Ngamok]

Coralld, on 13 June 2013 - 12:46 PM, said:

But then it goes back to my question again, why run a Medium at all? I love Mediums, I love my Hunchy, Blackjack, and Cicada, but I want to be just as effect as a Light or Heavy. I don't want to be just effective because I am being ignored.

Mediums are for striking not for tanking. Hopefully the bigger mechs ignore you as they concentrate on the other bigger mechs. Your Cicada can function just like a Jenner, I don't see the problem. Mine run nearly as fast as they do.

[Coralld]

Trauglodyte, on 13 June 2013 - 12:57 PM, said:

So you want to face tank other mechs in a Medium?

Being effective doesn't automatically mean I want them to face tank. But then again Cents can because they can exploit the in game mechanic where one only takes 50% damage when their left and right torso is gone and the CT hit box is crazy narrow.

Ngamok, on 13 June 2013 - 01:01 PM, said:

Mediums are for striking not for tanking. Hopefully the bigger mechs ignore you as they concentrate on the other bigger mechs. Your Cicada can function just like a Jenner, I don't see the problem. Mine run nearly as fast as they do.

See my response to Traug, on the "tanking" comment.

As for striking with them, I agree, or would if Heavies couldn't do this as well. And that's one of the problems, a Heavy can go just as fast as a Medium, or very close to it, even with STD Engines and still mount 50% more armor and either having the same or more firepower.

[aniviron]

Ghost Badger, on 13 June 2013 - 06:53 AM, said:

I've found that mediums work very well in concert with another medium, or heavy. You gotta play them as a support striker.

While I do agree that mediums often feel like a 'fragile heavy' I've found that running one with a fast heavy that grabs a target's attention but knows how to tank with their arms gives mediums a huge window of opportunity to strike, and strike hard.

I'm a particular fan of the BJ-1X and Firebrand/any Dragon.

Few problems here. The first is your assertion "I've found that mediums work very well in concert with another medium, or heavy." Well you know what I have found? That assaults work very well in concert with other assaults, and if me and a buddy roll into an enemy's rear together for 200 tons of ppc surprise, we win the game. Of course every mech works better with another mech going with it, that's how games work. But mediums can't do anything assaults can't do; why would you bring three mediums when one assault can do the same thing on its own, and three assaults completely outclasses three mediums?

Also, you seem to believe that the firebrand and dragon are medium mechs; you are incorrect. They are heavies. The fact that you think the weightclass above mediums is a medium mech might be colouring your perception of how good mediums are, and also says a lot about how heavy the tonnages skew in this game when you think a firebrand is medium. Just for reference, the heaviest mediums are currently 50 tons, and the dragon and firebrand are 60 and 65 respectively.

[Braggart]

I still believe the only problem with mediums is the lack of a tonnage system, or battle value.

The reason you took Mediums in table top is because they were jack of all trades, decent speed, decent armor, and decent weapons. They were never as good as heavies, or assaults, but you paid out the butt for those heavies and assaults.

If we have limits on the BV and tonnages allowed in a match, mediums would show their true value. As they provide a good mix of everything, but that can never show when the other team is rocking 3 assaults and 3 heavies.

Multiple times last night we face teams with 6 assaults, and our team would have 2 or 3. These weight mismatches break the game because of the extra weight provide the other team with way more firepower, and armor. A medium doesnt have the staying power to go the distance in a grudge match like that.

PGI says they want to stick close to lore and table top, but they arent. If they were, they would instantly know that a medium mech had no role other than letting you fit the tonnage and battle values. They were cheap and effective. If we got 2 hunchbacks or cents or blackjacks for every atlas, it would be different. That is how table top balanced this.

http://www.sarna.net...as_(BattleMech) Atlas is 1897

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Centurion Cent is 945

What has PGI done to make Mediums viable when they were not in TT. Nothing. If you are gonna say that mediums shouldnt be a match, then when I pilot a medium, our team should get another player to come along, or the other team should have to have a medium to equal. Currently matchmaking is so broken, i have witnessed far to many games that favor teams by over 200 or 300 tons.

Edited by Braggart, 13 June 2013 - 01:42 PM.

[Purlana]

Braggart, on 13 June 2013 - 01:34 PM, said:

I still believe the only problem with mediums is the lack of a tonnage system, or battle value.

The reason you took Mediums in table top is because they were jack of all trades, decent speed, decent armor, and decent weapons. They were never as good as heavies, or assaults, but you paid out the butt for those heavies and assaults.

If we have limits on the BV and tonnages allowed in a match, mediums would show their true value. As they provide a good mix of everything, but that can never show when the other team is rocking 3 assaults and 3 heavies.

Multiple times last night we face teams with 6 assaults, and our team would have 2 or 3. These weight mismatches break the game because of the extra weight provide the other team with way more firepower, and armor. A medium doesnt have the staying power to go the distance in a grudge match like that.

They could bring back the weight matching system.

[Coralld]

Purlana, on 13 June 2013 - 01:36 PM, said:

They could bring back the weight matching system.

They could but that doesn't solve the problem of Mediums being in a limbo of sorts. All that will do is fix weight mismatches where both teams are of or near equal tonnage.

But it would help make things a lot less lopsided.

Edited by Coralld, 13 June 2013 - 01:41 PM.

[aniviron]

Braggart, on 13 June 2013 - 01:34 PM, said:

I still believe the only problem with mediums is the lack of a tonnage system, or battle value.

The reason you took Mediums in table top is because they were jack of all trades, decent speed, decent armor, and decent weapons. They were never as good as heavies, or assaults, but you paid out the butt for those heavies and assaults.

If we have limits on the BV and tonnages allowed in a match, mediums would show their true value. As they provide a good mix of everything, but that can never show when the other team is rocking 3 assaults and 3 heavies.

Multiple times last night we face teams with 6 assaults, and our team would have 2 or 3. These weight mismatches break the game because of the extra weight provide the other team with way more firepower, and armor. A medium doesnt have the staying power to go the distance in a grudge match like that.

PGI says they want to stick close to lore and table top, but they arent. If they were, they would instantly know that a medium mech had no role other than letting you fit the tonnage and battle values. They were cheap and effective. If we got 2 hunchbacks or cents or blackjacks for every atlas, it would be different. That is how table top balanced this.

This is exactly what needs to happen. I keep hearing people saying that cost is a balancing feature, but it's not, not for more than your first week or two of play. When weight class matching was still in, I would often seek out my counterpart and kill him, and feel good knowing that I have pulled my own weight. Everything I do after that is just cream. :] But as Coralld says above, weight matching still isn't the answer given that this means 14 players are heavy/assault matched to each other, and then you and some other poor medium are stuck in this sumo match.

I'd actually like to see matches balanced by Elo and BV, but not players. If one side had a lance of four atlases, they could find themselves going up against two mixed light/medium lances of an equal bv/Elo. As long as the playercounts are balanced, lights and mediums will be strictly worse than heavies and assaults; when your number of players is the limiting factor, if you are all playing fatties then it is impossible to outgun you. Not so if you let the teams be numerically unbalanced.

[Xeno Phalcon]

MaddMaxx, on 13 June 2013 - 07:19 AM, said:

Now take 1 of each weight class and only pick out the humanoid style Mechs and use that just like the Top image. What about the FAT Mechs, of which there are many. Using Pictures to suit your argument, that do not show the full spectrum is disingenuous really.

You can take your thesaurus and flush it, It was 6am and its not like there are a whole lot of size comparison charts lying around like that if you can find yourself a fatlas chart you hook us country folk up with a link.

[NinetyProof]

Braggart, on 13 June 2013 - 01:34 PM, said:

I still believe the only problem with mediums is the lack of a tonnage system, or battle value.

This whole post is more about RELIGION then REALITY. You want to "believe" in something instead of just acknowledging the facts. This issue with mediums has nothing to do with "weight matching". The issue with mediums is, as I stated earlier, that people think mediums are just small assaults.

People load the medium up with the highest Alpha they can produce, with high heat, and slow engines ... then act like an assault and go face tank a group and then die instantly ... then come complain that mediums are broken.

But ... for argument sake, let's pretend we had "perfect" weight matching systems. So ... match starts and there are a perfect balance of: 6 assaults and 2 mediums against 6 assaults and 2 mediums. Does that change the problem? No ... the 2 delusional mediums thinking they were small assaults would still try to face tank the 6 other assaults and would still get vaporized instantly and still come complain that mediums are broken.

Oh you want a perfect 4x2 drop deck on each side? Fine, you go tell thousands and thousands of assault pilots they *have* to play heavies or mediums ... yea, that's going to go over like lead balloons at a party for a 3 year old.

This has *nothing* to do with tonnage matching.

New players just need to realize that Mediums are not "small assaults" ... mediums are larger scouts. Striker, Flanker, Harassment, etc, etc ... don't get lost in semantics. The point is, mediums are most effective when they take on the scout characteristics: move fast, run / dodge when targeted, try to get behind targets, try to let bigger targets draw attention, shoot from the flanks, etc, etc.

Edited by NinetyProof, 13 June 2013 - 02:02 PM.

[Scandinavian Jawbreaker]

NinetyProof, on 13 June 2013 - 02:00 PM, said:

This whole post is more about RELIGION then REALITY. You want to "believe" in something instead of just acknowledging the facts. This issue with mediums has nothing to do with "weight matching". The issue with mediums is, as I stated earlier, that people think mediums are just small assaults.

People load the medium up with the highest Alpha they can produce, with high heat, and slow engines ... then act like an assault and go face tank a group and then die instantly ... then come complain that mediums are broken.

But ... for argument sake, let's pretend we had "perfect" weight matching systems. So ... match starts and there are a perfect balance of: 6 assaults and 2 mediums against 6 assaults and 2 mediums. Does that change the problem? No ... the 2 delusional mediums thinking they were small assaults would still try to face tank the 6 other assaults and would still get vaporized instantly and still come complain that mediums are broken.

Oh you want a perfect 4x2 drop deck on each side? Fine, you go tell thousands and thousands of assault pilots they *have* to play heavies or mediums ... yea, that's going to go over like lead balloons at a party for a 3 year old.

This has *nothing* to do with tonnage matching.

New players just need to realize that Mediums are not "small assaults" ... mediums are larger scouts. Striker, Flanker, Harassment, etc, etc ... don't get lost in semantics. The point is, mediums are most effective when they take on the scout characteristics: move fast, run / dodge when targeted, try to get behind targets, try to let bigger targets draw attention, shoot from the flanks, etc, etc.

While your opinion might be true to some point, there are alot of people who know how to setup an efficient medium mech. Yeah, I've seen couple of PPC Hunchies out there... But they die quickly. Fast heat efficient medium with BV in place would be a devastating asset for the team.

So IMHO "people" you talk about are a small group of new players or those who are forced to bandwagon the current PPC meta.

[One Medic Army]

Preface, I own the following mediums:

• Centurions: D (Elited), A (Elited), AL (Elited)
  
• Hunchbacks: G (Elited), SP (Mastered), P (Mastered)
  
• Trebuchets: 3C (Elited), 5J (Elited), 7M (Elited)
  
• Blackjacks: 1 (Basics), 1X (Basics), 3 (Partial Basics, just bought)
  
• Cicadas: 3M (Basics)

The good mediums do one (or more) of the following:

• Take advantage of damage transfer and hitboxes for added survivability (Std engine Centurions)
  
• Go almost as fast as lights (Cicadas, Cent-9D, Treb-3C, Blackjack-1X)
  
• Boat massive amounts of lasers (Cicadas, Blackjack-1X, Hunch-P)
  
• Are small compared to heavy mechs (Blackjacks, Cicadas, Hunchbacks)

Some have additional demerits:

• Trebuchets have a majority of weapons on arms, meaning they can't arm shield without being disarmed
  
• Hunchbacks (SP aside) have a giant easy to hit hunch
  
• Cicadas and Blackjacks can't arm shield at all (moreso BJs since they're tall rather than long)

What a successful medium tends to need are the following:

• Either speed or durability (fast XL, or decent speed Std with weapons that are hard to blow off)
  
• High alpha potential (to use strike and fade tactics and thus not get primary'd)

The mediums that are missing one or both of these factors are pretty much garbage.

[Braggart]

NinetyProof, on 13 June 2013 - 02:00 PM, said:

The issue with mediums is, as I stated earlier, that people think mediums are just small assaults.

This whole post is more about religion than reality. You want to believe that mediums are being loaded and played as small assaults.

I never see anyone load up a medium and go slow, everyone tosses the biggest engine in them they can. THe fact that the hunch can only mount a 260 has nothing to do with wanting to go fast. The blackjack also cannot go fast, other than 1 variant.

Now the cents and trebs can mount good engines, but they sacrifice alot of weapon power to do that, so they end up as fast large size fast mechs with the firepower of a light, but are still easy to hit because of their size, and cannot flank as well as a light or 40 ton medium can. Which at that point, why arent you in a light, because your survival will be quite higher, and you will be a much better flanker and harasser.

When a light scurries into my vision when im shooting someone, I dont have time to adjust and shoot them before they are gone, when a fast medium scurries into my vision, i laugh because I didnt have to aim, they walked right into it, and cant get back out.

You sir, have no idea the game you are playing.

Also, you say it isnt fair for an assault to be forced to take something different. How is it fair for someone wanting to play a medium be forced to fight nothing but mechs that are better armored, and better equipped, and in a perfect world, just as good as you.

Weight matching works because it lowers the overall amount of firepower being thrown around in a match, which means it not quite as easy for someone to blow out your torso in 2 volleys.

TT balanced mediums with battle value. Mediums were not just flankers and harassers in TT either. Mediums fail because of the way systems are designed in this game, and they need buffs.

Edited by Braggart, 13 June 2013 - 02:24 PM.

[AgroAlba]

I'm pretty much exclusively a medium pilot, I love playing mediums, and I'm fairly good at it.

For me personally, the trick isn't going fast, or not going too slow, or putting on max armor, or this and that. It's NOT being the center of attention.

I will tag along with an assault or two, or heavies, and while they're ahead of me, getting all of the face time with the enemies weapons, I sit just a little further back and wail on them. Close enough to use my AC20 for example, it's just that who's going to be the priority target? The lil' hunchback? The lil' Blackjack? Or the big Assault mech blowing your face off, or the Cataphract melting your legs?

Just don't make yourself the center of attention, because once you do, you either need to fall back behind your buddies, or die.

Try it out, works pretty well!

[Asmudius Heng]

As people have said - the base reasons people took mediums in the TT game was because of weight or BV restrictions.

MWO is not TT but they share so many of the same rules that you CAN compare in this case.

Mediums do not need a buff to speed for instance or people will just up engine as much as they can - what is the point? just take a light. There should be a place for smaller engines to better tonnage but the current game means that speed is one of the only options left to smaller chassis to survive because there is no guarantee they will be facing anything other than a heap of heavies and assaults.

The lights are actually too SMALL if you ask me. They have been deliberately made smaller to make them more survivable which simply pushes mediums as the least survivable class rather than the other way around.

There is nothing you can do to make mediums 'better' apart form weight or BV limits IMO. I run mediums a lot and I do pretty well using all the advantages I do have, butI know that I could be doing even better in a good heavy - or even in a few lights.

[YueFei]

AgroAntirrhopus, on 13 June 2013 - 02:26 PM, said:

I'm pretty much exclusively a medium pilot, I love playing mediums, and I'm fairly good at it.

For me personally, the trick isn't going fast, or not going too slow, or putting on max armor, or this and that. It's NOT being the center of attention.

I will tag along with an assault or two, or heavies, and while they're ahead of me, getting all of the face time with the enemies weapons, I sit just a little further back and wail on them. Close enough to use my AC20 for example, it's just that who's going to be the priority target? The lil' hunchback? The lil' Blackjack? Or the big Assault mech blowing your face off, or the Cataphract melting your legs?

Just don't make yourself the center of attention, because once you do, you either need to fall back behind your buddies, or die.

Try it out, works pretty well!

You know you can do the same thing in a heavy, right? Replace you in your medium with you in a heavy, and you can also hang back a bit, avoid being the center of attention... and punch MUCH MUCH harder than you currently do in your medium.

[Purlana]

YueFei, on 13 June 2013 - 04:09 PM, said:

You know you can do the same thing in a heavy, right? Replace you in your medium with you in a heavy, and you can also hang back a bit, avoid being the center of attention... and punch MUCH MUCH harder than you currently do in your medium.

No, you can do the same thing in an Assault! Assaults for all!

Edited by Purlana, 13 June 2013 - 04:11 PM.

[ArmandTulsen]

El Bandito, on 13 June 2013 - 01:49 AM, said:

The real issue with mediums is their bigger-than-lore size.  Centurions and Trebuchets in particular.

+1,000,000