93 replies to this topic

[Tincan Nightmare]

Xeno Phalcon, on 13 June 2013 - 03:08 AM, said:

FupDup also posted this on a thread about tribs (Trib is between dragon and jager):

Whats crazy about this chart, is that if you go through the earlier artwork you see numerous drawings where the mechs are much closer in size. Also the rules for close combat contradict that chart as well. In the TT if a light mech punches a heavy or assault, if they are standing on the same level of ground the light can only hit above the waist in the torsos, arms, or head. But looking at that chart, it would be completely impossible for this to happen as the light mech couldn't reach that high and would only be able to punch the legs. That chart only came out fairly recently in the BT books, and seems to contradict years of artwork in other sources, plus making certain rules (like punching) seem totally impractical. Makes me think they didn't put a lot of thought in it before they printed it.

[WANTED]

You are always the attention in a heavy or Assault. Try backing out of an engagement as a Highlander or Atlas. They are so slow and pack all the firepower and everyone knows it. The mediums are fast and can disengage and turn, stop, much better. I will take my Yen Lo any day over my highlander 733c. Guess which one I have a 2.02 KD in over 119 games?

Edited by WANTED, 14 June 2013 - 07:35 AM.

[Syllogy]

I have no issues when I play my Blackjack. I have fun in both my 1X and my 3. I have plenty of kills in both.

[InRev]

Syllogy, on 14 June 2013 - 07:41 AM, said:

I have no issues when I play my Blackjack. I have fun in both my 1X and my 3. I have plenty of kills in both.

While I do not doubt that, my question is would you have more kills and more damage done if you had used a heavy instead?

I regularly outscore heavies and assaults in my Cicada, but I do sometimes wonder if I would be more useful to my team by just joining the Heavy/Assault herd instead of deliberately limiting myself by being a Light/Medium exclusive pilot. I do recall that when I used a Stalker, I regularly carried teams but I cannot really do that anymore in my Cicadas so it makes me wonder.

Ultimately, it's all academic since I can't stand being slow, no matter what kind of Death Star I become.

Edited by InRev, 14 June 2013 - 09:29 AM.

[Lagster]

NinetyProof, on 13 June 2013 - 08:47 AM, said:

Actually you, like most medium pilots, left off the most crucial speed: Max Speed The issue, by and large, is that people just want to "boat max weapons" so they can get big damage numbers so they can get big CB/XP or decent K/D ratio or whatever. So they take a medium that could go 100 KPH (elited) and they max out their weapons for that big 40 Alpha and end up going less then 60KPH ... and consequently rush head long into battle and die immediately after 2 or 3 Alphas ... and then go out and fail and blame PGI for bad game design. Vs a smart medium pilots that starts with the max engine, and then works backwards with the load out to get the most DPS they can and yet still maintain that advantage of speed. So the *real* issue with mediums is the people that think mediums are weapon boats that are just a bit smaller then assaults ... instead of realizing they are scouts that are just a bit larger them lights.

Actually, I run Trebs (3C max engine, 7M max engine, 5J almost max engine). I mostly run my 7M on a triple streak/mlas config cause I don't have weight for anything else. On a good game if I try really, really, really hard I get ~300 damage (rare), most games ~200. Which really isn't much difference from when I run my Raven 3L, except I have to be a lot more careful in my Treb due to size. I also find that I don't really contribute more to the team than, say, a non-noob trollmando generally does... at which point I find myself asking why bring 50 tons when 25 or 35 tons does the same.

And that's the issue... slow mediums get destroyed, fast mediums don't outperform fast lights. What's the point of mediums?

[Braggart]

Lagster, on 14 June 2013 - 09:36 AM, said:

Actually, I run Trebs (3C max engine, 7M max engine, 5J almost max engine). I mostly run my 7M on a triple streak/mlas config cause I don't have weight for anything else. On a good game if I try really, really, really hard I get ~300 damage (rare), most games ~200. Which really isn't much difference from when I run my Raven 3L, except I have to be a lot more careful in my Treb due to size. I also find that I don't really contribute more to the team than, say, a non-noob trollmando generally does... at which point I find myself asking why bring 50 tons when 25 or 35 tons does the same.

And that's the issue... slow mediums get destroyed, fast mediums don't outperform fast lights. What's the point of mediums?

When you are huge, going fast doesnt make you a harder target. To many people think that a fast medium is something to be feared. It is not, A fast light is to be feared, as it can stay in an assaults blindspots, or dodge a gunfire. A fast medium cannot do those things, and makes for an easy target when they are targeted.

[Funkadelic Mayhem]

No! The real issue with mediums is that they are not assaults or lights.
The real issue with assaults is they are not mediums or lights.
The real issue with lights is they are not assaults or mediums.


ad·van·tage (d-vntj)
n.
1. A beneficial factor or combination of factors.
2. Benefit or profit; gain: It is to your advantage to invest wisely.
3. A relatively favorable position; superiority of means: A better education gave us the advantage.
4. Sports
a. The first point scored in tennis after deuce.
b. The resulting score.
tr.v. ad·van·taged, ad·van·tag·ing, ad·van·tag·es
To afford profit or gain to; benefit.




dis·ad·van·tage (dsd-vntj)
n.
1. An unfavorable condition or circumstance.
2. Something that places one in an unfavorable condition or circumstance.
3. Damage or loss, especially to reputation or finances; detriment.
tr.v. dis·ad·van·taged, dis·ad·van·tag·ing, dis·ad·van·tag·es
To put at a disadvantage; hinder or harm.

As it should be!

[Trauglodyte]

YueFei, on 13 June 2013 - 04:09 PM, said:

You know you can do the same thing in a heavy, right? Replace you in your medium with you in a heavy, and you can also hang back a bit, avoid being the center of attention... and punch MUCH MUCH harder than you currently do in your medium.

And that leads back to the problem that allowing drops of 4+ Assaults with the rest being predominantly Heavies is a major issue. Medius are called the work horse of the mech world because they were build with a lot of punch for their weight but at a very small cost. It was always wiser to build a force around a heavy stallwart of an assault with a few heavies and lights but with the bulk of the weight being designated for mediums because they could do so many things. The lack of a weight limit or BV limit means that the intended strengths of the medium weight class is wasted.

Then, you have the bulk of the people that see the land scape being what it is (go heavy or go home) and trying to turn their mediums into small assaults. Combine that with the Rambo factor and a complete inability to drive with intelligence and you've got a weight class that is getting shreded.

So, the ineptitude of the Medium is due to the idiocy of its users and the environment built around the biggest alpha. This is, once again, an issue of "Don't blame the tool, blame the user(s)".

[WANTED]

I think it's a matter of what your best at. Some of you can rock the heavy and assault classes but can't get a handle on the light or in this case mediums. I excel at medium mechs. I dunno why but I do. I use the Yen Low Wang and get multiple kills and very high damage many games. Also the same with my Hunchback 4G. Both go close to 90kph and have standard engines. I can barely get a 1.0 KD in my Highlander. So I just am not that great in assaults for some reason. Probably cause I like speed and they don't have it.

Therefore I don't think there is any issues with the medium mechs. I see plenty of players excel in them besides me. The smart players do great complimenting the heavy and assault class.

[Vodrin Thales]

I'm not sure if the problem is really mediums being too big, or that assaults and heavies are much too small.

[TheFlyingScotsman]

The problem is not the speed of mediums. I make ample use of 80-90kmh for most. The problem is that most players are magnetized to heavies and assaults due to learning curves. Because a mech's combat effectiveness can >generally but not always< be rated by its weight, and because there are no weight limitations per team, there are almost always 3-6 assaults in any given game per team. The amount of tonnage active in the field so outweighs mediums and lights that any engagement in combat is utterly suicidal.

In normal BT settings, most mechs in the field are mediums, assisted by heavies as fire support and the occasional light or assault to act as a scout/battering ram. Having more than a single assault per couple of lances in BT is very, very uncommon. (Unless you're a Steiner in a BT universe novel.)

In order for all players to be able to compete in a balanced environment, four players on one team cannot have 400 tons of a 550-600 ton team. Its just simple, basic, blunt and easy math. PGI needs to put weight tier limitations into play when they release 12vs12 or this problem will be exacerbated excessively.

Edited by TheFlyingScotsman, 14 June 2013 - 11:28 AM.

[LordBraxton]

I am so sick of the people who cry L2P every time mediums are brought up

they are oversized and under-armored targets for my heavies and assaults

if a pilot is good enough to score high damage in a medium

he is good enough to do twice that damage in a heavy or assault

mediums are about 40% too large

look at a centurion next to a jenner.... 15 ton difference? centurion looks double the weight or more

hell one arm on a centurion looks about the weight of a jenners entire body

Edited by LordBraxton, 14 June 2013 - 02:39 PM.

[Braggart]

Trauglodyte, on 14 June 2013 - 10:51 AM, said:

And that leads back to the problem that allowing drops of 4+ Assaults with the rest being predominantly Heavies is a major issue. Medius are called the work horse of the mech world because they were build with a lot of punch for their weight but at a very small cost. It was always wiser to build a force around a heavy stallwart of an assault with a few heavies and lights but with the bulk of the weight being designated for mediums because they could do so many things. The lack of a weight limit or BV limit means that the intended strengths of the medium weight class is wasted.

Then, you have the bulk of the people that see the land scape being what it is (go heavy or go home) and trying to turn their mediums into small assaults. Combine that with the Rambo factor and a complete inability to drive with intelligence and you've got a weight class that is getting shreded.

So, the ineptitude of the Medium is due to the idiocy of its users and the environment built around the biggest alpha. This is, once again, an issue of "Don't blame the tool, blame the user(s)".

wait a second. You say that mediums are only bad because the players playing them are stupid????? That applies to every single weight class in the game. I watch atlas's die without doing 100 damage.

I'm gonna have to call your entire post bull and all based on personal opinion on how other players are playing their mediums, which has nothing to do with the truth of how they are being played.

If the only use for a medium sized mech is to crest a hill let a volley go and then dive back, then you might as well do that in a heavy or assault and do even more damage with that tactic.

[mack sabbath]

Anyone who doesn't recognize the inconsistencies and keeps touting the size is not an issue, probably has a girlfriend who keeps reassuring him of this.

[Deadmeat313]

Interestingly, in canon the Draconis Combine takes a dim view of Medium Mechs. They believe that anything a Medium can do could be done better by either a heavy or a light.

Their military doctrine uses large numbers of Jenners and Dragons to swarm an objective - aiming for at least 3-1 local superiority over the enemy. Should they encounter unexpected resistance then they can swiftly fall back behind a screen of fire support units such as AS7-Ks and Panthers.


The Capellan Confederation, on the other hand, relies primarily on Medium designs because we are poor.

[JSparrowist]

Mediums are kind of in a bad place..

I cannot stand peeking out from cover to see if the coast is clear, only to take two enemy alpha strikes resulting in my immediate death. When that doesn't happen and I manage to get into the fray un-noticed, it isn't long before a lone medium gets focused down simply because its an easy kill.

ugh.. the match maker does need to manage weight somehow. I don't have an answer how, its been discussed before..

Edited by JSparrowist, 14 June 2013 - 04:44 PM.

[Shalune]

Posted this in another thread and seems relevant:

Quote

There's a lot of negativity going around about medium mechs, when they are still very competitive if played right.

There's 2 tricks to this:
[...] PUGing can be hell because it relies on others knowing their role. Here's the thing: aside from snipers or maybe high damage lights, all roles in the game will do absolutely abysmally if not properly supported. Assaults will get flanked, mediums will get outgunned, and LRMs will get overrun. Few builds are self sufficient, and it takes a lot of luck for any amount of skill by a single player to swing a game.

Secondly, and more importantly since we can control it, mediums may require the most finely tuned balancing to make an effective build at the entry level. Many other weight classes can focus on maximizing 1 attribute, while mediums want to have it all. I'll try to keep things brief with some pointers on building a medium below:

- Weapons! Your strength is that many medium builds -can- have it all, but to support high speed and armor this means you must use weapons efficiently. Choose long range or short range. Long get 2-3 weapons, at least 1 energy. A good rule for close range is use SRM + ML or SSRM + MPL.

- Speed! For a reliable medium there are 2 speeds: fast, and crazy fast (read: over 100), I'd say anything under 80 is going to be hit or miss for its inability to escape heavier mechs. This speed means you can be a capper alongside lights, that is one of your strengths.

- Survival! Don't skimp on armor, including back. Twist to spread damage all day long. Every pilot needs to know how to do this, but mediums and assaults especially.

Most reliable mediums in my experience:
Any Cent with XL or STD engine. Twist like a boss and use those blocking arms.
Treb 5J, 7K, 7M with XL or STD engine
Hunch 4SP with STD engine

[Umbra8]

Mediums will return when SRM damage has been boosted to a respectable level. Mediums just don't have the spare tonnage to be efficient with heavier hitting weapons systems with high alpha potential (autocannons and ppcs). The SRM represented a high-risk high-reward brawling weapons system that let mediums hit hard and then either use their superior speed to disengage, or if the balance of the fight was in their favor endure a skirmish long enough to finish or cripple a foe before leaving. Currently they don't really have the damage potential to make that playstyle any more effective than just bringing another heavy/assault and disengagement is easier in light classes.

Edited by Umbra8, 14 June 2013 - 04:53 PM.

[One Medic Army]

Umbra8, on 14 June 2013 - 04:53 PM, said:

Mediums will return when SRM damage has been boosted to a respectable level. Mediums just don't have the spare tonnage to be efficient with heavier hitting weapons systems with high alpha potential (autocannons and ppcs). The SRM represented a high-risk high-reward brawling weapons system that let mediums hit hard and then either use their superior speed to disengage, or if the balance of the fight was in their favor endure a skirmish long enough to finish or cripple a foe before leaving. Currently they don't really have the damage potential to make that playstyle any more effective than just bringing another heavy/assault and disengagement is easier in light classes.

Well, except for the ones boating crazy amounts of lasers (Hunch-P, Blackjack-1X)

SRMs fit in the midrange between small weapons like ML, SSRM, SL, MG and the big weapons like LL, PPC, LRM, Ballistics.
They allowed mediums to focus on short-range firepower to complement their decent speed and decent armor, while still allowing them to make full use of their hardpoints.

Lights can mount 5-6 ML, SL, SSRM just fine, Mediums need larger weapons, but LL, PPC, LRM focus too much on range. Ballistics are either super long range DPS, or on the opposite end so heavy it's hard to fit them on a medium without slowing down to heavy speeds. Thus the reliance of mediums on SRMs.

[Coralld]

Currently, I am in favor of having Heavies and Assaults torso twist and arm movement speeds be more sluggish, I am constantly astonished how fast they can whip them selves around. And perhaps also a slightly slower turning speed as well. This will not fix all the problems the Mediums face, but it would help.