233 replies to this topic

[Devil Fox]

The Catapult head hitbox is fine... the problem is that as the game has progressed from Closed Beta where only the K2 had a sufficent alpha strike to instant kill one via a headshot, the game has evolved into high alpha builds all around. Since the prime tactic to kill a Catapult is the CT because of the small side torsos, people aim the centermass... where is a catapult's head? Centermass...

What needs to change is the high alpha boating of most designs being fielded... hell even as I type this I'm in a 2PPC/2ERPPC Phract 3D leveling it to master... it's the meta, not the design of the chassis that's at fault.

[Tor6]

I would argue that the catapult is in a very bad place right now because of the meta. Its one big 'advantage' is that it can safely mount an xl and due to its weight get decent speed without sacrificing too much. The problem with this is that this 'advantage' is actually a disadvantage in the current state of game balance.

It's extremely hard to protect the CT of a catapult via torso twisting against anyone that can aim. Its side torso are so tiny and its ears placed so far back that a competent pilot can hit your CT from almost any angle. The biggest problem for snipers is the fear of spreading their damage across closely placed sections of a mech. When shooting at a catapult they don't have this problem because its CT is almost awesome-esque in its size.

So what is the catapult good for that another chassis can't do better now? A missile carrier? Maybe the C4. Sniping? The 3d or Jager fills that roll more capably without having a giant self-destruct button attached to its face. In fact its nearly impossible to intentionally headshot a phract in a live game. People like to claim its a support mech and its head is huge because of this. That you should stay far away from the enemy so they can't headshot you. The problem is that it doesn't matter how CLOSE you are to the enemy. PPC snipers are liable to hit your head at long range so long as they're looking at them while they shoot at you because its center mass. And you HAVE to look at them if you're a missile boat because you must maintain a lock/tag. As long as you're looking right at the enemy they have a perfect shot to your cockpit and/or your CT which is almost impossible to hide anyways. Most headshots on cats happen by accident anyways.

In fact the head of a cat is so large and placed so far forward that the only place you CANNOT hit it from is directly behind the mech. If you are to the side at all you can still see it. No other mech has this vulnerability and the sad thing is that the only reason for this is that the devs DIDN'T KNOW until recently. Per Ask the Devs 37

Iron War: What is the official reason to why the catipults cockpit is so large, when most other mechs had theirs reduced?
A: If you are meaning hitbox - the head hitbox is similar to other Mechs.

Which was not met very positively by the people in the thread because its patently false if you test it at all. Thankfully they've since looked at the hitbox and are planning to bring it more in line with the rest of the mechs. Per Ask the Devs 39:

DarkhorseBW: Why are there different types of cockpit hit boxes? For example, the Cataphract's cockpit is only its 1 front center window, but the Catapult's cockpit is all of its windows?
A: It’s getting adjusted to be similar. It’s Paul’s favorite mech, so I made sure everyone could kill him more easily.

Someday. The Raven 2x and 4x are still waiting on their engine buffs.

Which makes this whole thread sort of a foregone conclusion really. I still had to post in it though because my cat is sad that it is in such a poor place in the current meta. :C

[Volthorne]

Tor6, on 15 June 2013 - 12:19 AM, said:

Someday. The Raven 2x and 4x are still waiting on their engine buffs.

Someday. Although I would argue that the 4X doesn't need an engine buff for two reasons:

1) It has JJs.
2) I foolishly made the claim (in another thread) that a 4X can mount double the firepower of any Jenner (that means 7 sustained DPS). With the upcoming MG buff, that's going to be entirely possible, a claim none of the other Ravens can make.

/offtopic

Edited by Volthorne, 15 June 2013 - 12:39 AM.

[ExtremeA79]

Tor6, on 15 June 2013 - 12:19 AM, said:

I would argue that the catapult is in a very bad place right now because of the meta. Its one big 'advantage' is that it can safely mount an xl and due to its weight get decent speed without sacrificing too much. The problem with this is that this 'advantage' is actually a disadvantage in the current state of game balance.

It's extremely hard to protect the CT of a catapult via torso twisting against anyone that can aim. Its side torso are so tiny and its ears placed so far back that a competent pilot can hit your CT from almost any angle. The biggest problem for snipers is the fear of spreading their damage across closely placed sections of a mech. When shooting at a catapult they don't have this problem because its CT is almost awesome-esque in its size.

So what is the catapult good for that another chassis can't do better now? A missile carrier? Maybe the C4. Sniping? The 3d or Jager fills that roll more capably without having a giant self-destruct button attached to its face. In fact its nearly impossible to intentionally headshot a phract in a live game. People like to claim its a support mech and its head is huge because of this. That you should stay far away from the enemy so they can't headshot you. The problem is that it doesn't matter how CLOSE you are to the enemy. PPC snipers are liable to hit your head at long range so long as they're looking at them while they shoot at you because its center mass. And you HAVE to look at them if you're a missile boat because you must maintain a lock/tag. As long as you're looking right at the enemy they have a perfect shot to your cockpit and/or your CT which is almost impossible to hide anyways. Most headshots on cats happen by accident anyways.

In fact the head of a cat is so large and placed so far forward that the only place you CANNOT hit it from is directly behind the mech. If you are to the side at all you can still see it. No other mech has this vulnerability and the sad thing is that the only reason for this is that the devs DIDN'T KNOW until recently. Per Ask the Devs 37

Iron War: What is the official reason to why the catipults cockpit is so large, when most other mechs had theirs reduced?
A: If you are meaning hitbox - the head hitbox is similar to other Mechs.

Which was not met very positively by the people in the thread because its patently false if you test it at all. Thankfully they've since looked at the hitbox and are planning to bring it more in line with the rest of the mechs. Per Ask the Devs 39:

DarkhorseBW: Why are there different types of cockpit hit boxes? For example, the Cataphract's cockpit is only its 1 front center window, but the Catapult's cockpit is all of its windows?
A: It’s getting adjusted to be similar. It’s Paul’s favorite mech, so I made sure everyone could kill him more easily.

Someday. The Raven 2x and 4x are still waiting on their engine buffs.

Which makes this whole thread sort of a foregone conclusion really. I still had to post in it though because my cat is sad that it is in such a poor place in the current meta. :C

The catapult is not in a bad place right now. It's ridiculous that you guys whine and complain about it. I use a catapult in pug and pre-made and have no problems with it at all. I have said this before but obviously you are not using it right. The catapult is a support mech, not a brawler, and that is very likely the reason you are dying. You are brawling. With the catapult you have to stay out of sight, out of range.

Edited by Darren Tyler, 15 June 2013 - 10:28 AM.

[Arctu]

There is no such thing as a support mech. The Catapult does not have ANY advantages in long range combat over other mechs - why should it suck at brawling? The Catapults are just broken and declassed by the Jagermechs (especially when comparing the Firebrand with the K2) and Stalkers.

I'd recommend everyone running a Catapult to try a Stalker for one day. It's just laughable how much better the Stalker is at everything, except at exploding prematurely ...

This is whats wrong with the Cats hitboxes:

- the cockpit hitbox is too large
- the cockpit is located in the center torso, where it even gets hit by accident a lot
- the side torsos do not protect the center at all (everyone not considering this to be a disadvantage seriously needs to learn turning away to avoid damage. it even works with an XL engine to some degree)
- the catapult is very easy to disarm, especially the missile variants
- you can hit the center torso and the cockpit from almost every position, even when you are somewhat behind it

If you run a Catapult and didn't notice to get killed by an exploded cockpit a lot, you should work on your elo. Skilled players really take advantage of that and often enough kill Catapults with one volley.

Edited by Arctu, 15 June 2013 - 02:11 PM.

[Stoicblitzer]

Volthorne, on 14 June 2013 - 02:21 PM, said:

robotic space-owl

i laughed.

[aniviron]

Arctu, on 15 June 2013 - 02:01 PM, said:

There is no such thing as a support mech. The Catapult does not have ANY advantages in long range combat over other mechs - why should it suck at brawling? The Catapults are just broken and declassed by the Jagermechs (especially when comparing the Firebrand with the K2) and Stalkers.

I don't own or pilot a catapult, but this is correct. There is no such thing as a "support mech" or a "support weapon" in this game. Either it is good, and worth taking, or it is bad, and you should never take it. I'm tired of people saying that mediums and awesomes (the things I tend to drive) are "support mechs." This is code for "I like winning against this easily, and I hope it remains bad and not a threat." Why would you ever drive anything that is meant to support when you can take a mech that supports itself and does its own role properly as well.

So Catapult pilots: don't stop making a fuss until your cockpit glass is smaller, and punch people in the face when they suggest that your mech is meant to "support" and should be arbitrarily worse than the other mechs in its weight class.

[ExtremeA79]

aniviron, on 15 June 2013 - 05:41 PM, said:

I don't own or pilot a catapult, but this is correct. There is no such thing as a "support mech" or a "support weapon" in this game. Either it is good, and worth taking, or it is bad, and you should never take it. I'm tired of people saying that mediums and awesomes (the things I tend to drive) are "support mechs." This is code for "I like winning against this easily, and I hope it remains bad and not a threat." Why would you ever drive anything that is meant to support when you can take a mech that supports itself and does its own role properly as well.

So Catapult pilots: don't stop making a fuss until your cockpit glass is smaller, and punch people in the face when they suggest that your mech is meant to "support" and should be arbitrarily worse than the other mechs in its weight class.

Awesome's are not support mech and mediums tend to be miniature brawlers. Whoever told you this is a *****. That or you are a ***** for quite possibly lying to get your point across.

[ExtremeA79]

Arctu, on 15 June 2013 - 02:01 PM, said:

There is no such thing as a support mech. The Catapult does not have ANY advantages in long range combat over other mechs - why should it suck at brawling? The Catapults are just broken and declassed by the Jagermechs (especially when comparing the Firebrand with the K2) and Stalkers.

I'd recommend everyone running a Catapult to try a Stalker for one day. It's just laughable how much better the Stalker is at everything, except at exploding prematurely ...

This is whats wrong with the Cats hitboxes:

- the cockpit hitbox is too large
- the cockpit is located in the center torso, where it even gets hit by accident a lot
- the side torsos do not protect the center at all (everyone not considering this to be a disadvantage seriously needs to learn turning away to avoid damage. it even works with an XL engine to some degree)
- the catapult is very easy to disarm, especially the missile variants
- you can hit the center torso and the cockpit from almost every position, even when you are somewhat behind it

If you run a Catapult and didn't notice to get killed by an exploded cockpit a lot, you should work on your elo. Skilled players really take advantage of that and often enough kill Catapults with one volley.

I have owned a Stalker before and I was pleased, but a catapult offers better mobility compared to it and I prefer it in long range combat.
There are such things as support mechs, you support your team when you spot, you support your team when you shield them with ECM, you support your team by softening targets with LRM's.
You need to recheck what support is when you state that there is no such thing as support. COD is a example of a game with no support in there. The closest to being support are killstreaks. This game isn't COD, not even close, and there are support roles here.
Catapults are not outclassed by Jagermechs, catapults offer better mobility and range. Jagermechs have to get closer in combat while having (the stock at least) 6 tons of STD armor. Obviously you are not looking well at these mechs.
Quit whining and play the game.

[cyberFluke]

Funkadelic Mayhem, on 14 June 2013 - 10:07 AM, said:

only if the "legspot" on the lights is lowered.

By the time the over 30's are done with this game we are going to only have 1 mech and 1 weapon to choose from.

Actually, it's quite the opposite. The "Over 30's" as you put it, are the ones arguing for a more hardcore sim based experience. The entitled kiddies that don't like games that are "too hard" or don't offer up achievements for wiping your own ar$e are the ones petitioning for a more simplified, lizard brain, point and click dullfest. Unfortunately, the suits in charge of the money know there's more of the latter, and are tailoring the game to suit.

[Ezekeel666]

Darren Tyler, on 15 June 2013 - 06:12 PM, said:

Catapults are not outclassed by Jagermechs, catapults offer better mobility and range. Jagermechs have to get closer in combat while having (the stock at least) 6 tons of STD armor. Obviously you are not looking well at these mechs.
Quit whining and play the game.

Except that the mobility depends only on the engine, the range only on the mounted weapons and the armor on, well the amount of armor you decide to put on it. The point is that all these advantages of the Catapult you claim have nothing to do with the chassis at all and can as well be put into a Jagermech. Obviously you are not looking well at the Mechbay and have not realized yet that players can customize their mechs to their own liking. Quit playing the game and use that thing on your shoulders for one second.

[aniviron]

Darren Tyler, on 15 June 2013 - 06:07 PM, said:

Awesome's are not support mech and mediums tend to be miniature brawlers. Whoever told you this is a *****. That or you are a ***** for quite possibly lying to get your point across.

Go read any thread about balance for mediums, or any thread where people say that the awesome melts too rapidly because of its dumb hitboxes. You will find people in there "oh hur you should have been 900m away, awesome is a support mech, you aren't supposed to take fire with it that's why it has ppcs." Same deal with mediums, some pretty common advice I hear is "Oh just hide behind an atlas and let him take all the damage and fire at what he's firing at."

I guess what I am saying is that the "support role" crowd is alive and well on this forum.

Here, just since you think I am lying, the first two pages of the "awesomes are bad" thread posted today has this suggestion six times, helpfully quoted for you here:

jk781, on 15 June 2013 - 05:12 AM, said:

A wise man once said, 'there are no bad mechs, only bad pilots'.

In my opinion the Awesome is a decent mech if you play it right.

It's no frontline brawler, it's as Redshift2k5 said a supporter.

Alistair Winter, on 15 June 2013 - 03:02 AM, said:

The Awesome 8Q is one of my best mechs in terms of consistently doing high levels of damage and getting kills. I usually go with 3 ER PPCs. I have also tried to play with 6 large lasers for a while, but that was pretty much a coin flip between glorious victory and catastrophic failure each match.

Whether you're equipped with PPCs, large lasers or LRMs, the Awesome is a support mech. A while back, you could do very well with 4 x SRM6 on an Awesome, but those days are gone. So you need to get used to the fact that your role is to hang back and let others take damage during the first part of the match.

Unless you're running an Awesome 9M or Pretty Baby, I recommend the STD engine. The huge arms combined with the flat profile of the Awesome makes torso twisting quite effective. You can lose the whole left arm, and you'll only have lost a couple of heatsinks. If you lose the whole left torso too, you'll still do very well with 66% weapon capacity.

I should add that I almost never alpha strike with my Awesome 8Q, unless my target is nearly dead. The Awesome 8Q is not a knockout puncher like a Stalker with 4-6 PPCs. I tend to have two firing groups, my arm mounted ER PPC is mouse button 1, and my two torso mounted ER PPCs are mouse button 2. My small laser is mouse button 3, which I use mostly to insult my opponents. So ideally, I want to keep my ER PPCs firing every 2 seconds, or more, depending on how you group them.

An Awesome leading the charge is an easy target. An Awesome hiding behind an Atlas or Highlander is easily ignored.

Redshift2k5, on 15 June 2013 - 05:05 AM, said:

They certainly don't belong at the front of a charge. An Awesome leading a push is a dead mech, but can be effective as an LRM platform or with a PPC+SSRM2 build. You need to think of it as more of a Heavy mech than an Assault mech; What would you do with a Catapult if it had a few more tons?(the bulk of the extra 15 tons will go to armor and engine, however)

oldradagast, on 15 June 2013 - 09:58 AM, said:

Again, nobody claimed the Awesome is supposed to be a super-brawler like an Atlas.

Both it and the Stalker are direct and indirect fire support mechs / snipers.

Both are comparable in overall specifications and abilities, as I've discussed in in early post.

And yet, the Stalker is far more durable in real-game terms and played far more often. This, at least to me, indicates a problem with the Awesome, one that cannot be related to its abilities on paper. As I said earlier, the large torso hitboxes are probably the culprit, though if folks have found other problems while playing around in Training Grounds, they should be brought up as well.

Kain, on 15 June 2013 - 12:29 PM, said:

The Awesome is just more difficult tot learn tot handle
It is a great support mech, who can deal a lot of damage from the second attack line, and you have big arms to defend your ct

Just don't ride it as a brawler, and when you go in for a brawl, torso twist away from your opponent between your shots.

Koniving, on 15 June 2013 - 12:40 PM, said:

Reallocate their armor. I find them to have the potential of incredible power, but only if they stay far from the fight. By lore, Awesomes are fire support mechs, both direct and indirect. They never occupy the front lines nor should they. As such due their large size and weak armor (just a step above a Cataphract), the Awesome should never be used to brawl. Since you should always stay at range, reallocate the armor to be 90% front, if not higher. You'd be surprised at the beatings an Awesome can take then.

Flamer Awesomes killing things and brawling. Split-screens included. This is during the PPC metas.

Spoiler

Two Awesomes, the 9M and the Pretty Baby, have reputations as light and medium chasers with top speeds reaching 85.8 kph and 89.1 kph respectively. Of those two, the PB's quirks make it ideal for 'snap-shots' that like Twitch Call of Duty combat, though the mech's size keeps it in line and its limited laser hardpoints prevent more than two PPCs at once. Conversely, the 9M can't hold anymore than 3 PPCs due to its hardpoint placement.

Pretty Baby default loadout, and ultra basic advice that applies to all missileer Awesomes.

Spoiler

Edited by aniviron, 15 June 2013 - 07:59 PM.

[ExtremeA79]

aniviron, on 15 June 2013 - 07:30 PM, said:

Go read any thread about balance for mediums, or any thread where people say that the awesome melts too rapidly because of its dumb hitboxes. You will find people in there "oh hur you should have been 900m away, awesome is a support mech, you aren't supposed to take fire with it that's why it has ppcs." Same deal with mediums, some pretty common advice I hear is "Oh just hide behind an atlas and let him take all the damage and fire at what he's firing at."

I guess what I am saying is that the "support role" crowd is alive and well on this forum.

Here, just since you think I am lying, the first two pages of the "awesomes are bad" thread posted today has this suggestion six times, helpfully quoted for you here:

I had never said Awesomes are great. I am fully aware of their problems. Lore wise, they ARE brawlers, and people here use them as such. Awesome's are not good in support roles as others perform better there, and as brawlers, their CT is big, so the awesome has no place now.

[Stomp]

My poor catapult!

[Strum Wealh]

Darren Tyler, on 15 June 2013 - 09:10 PM, said:

I had never said Awesomes are great. I am fully aware of their problems. Lore wise, they ARE brawlers, and people here use them as such. Awesome's are not good in support roles as others perform better there, and as brawlers, their CT is big, so the awesome has no place now.

"The Awesome is most commonly used to assault a fixed position or to breach the line of the enemy."

"As with every BattleMech, the Awesome is not without flaws. While devastating at range, it is less efficient in point-blank combat, where its PPCs have a harder time connecting with the target. It only has a Diverse Optics small laser and its left fist to fall back on in that situation. Its reduced mobility makes it vulnerable to flanking attacks by faster opponents who eagerly seek to get clear of the PPCs. While they face some of the thickest rear armor found on any BattleMech, the lack of rear facing weapons, or of a weapon mount on the Awesome’s left arm, have given many MechWarriors a fighting chance against it."

"To achieve the Awesome's superb offensive and defensive capabilities, maneuverability was sacrificed. With its heavy structure, the Awesome is slow and cannot react to attacks from the rear as well as can BattleMechs with a greater number of weapons. It is also susceptible to damage in its legs, which could easily immobilize it or make it topple."

"The Awesome is effective when used for the purposes its designers had in mind. If the 'Mech is mishandled or poorly screened from flanking enemy units, however, it will not be able to fight off lighter 'Mechs quickly enough to keep from being surrounded."

(all from TRO 3025 and TRO 3039)

In other words, the Awesome is supposed to be in the first wave of an attack force... and sit back with an escort and pound the defenders from afar. It's also heavily-armored, slow, ponderous. and highly inadept and ill-prepared for close combat (e.g. brawling).
The source material even tells us, in essence, that using the Awesome in a manner other than that for which it was obviously designed (that is, as a sniper and siege platform), one is "going to have a bad time".

Edited by Strum Wealh, 16 June 2013 - 03:08 PM.

[ExtremeA79]

Strum Wealh, on 16 June 2013 - 04:46 AM, said:

"The Awesome is most commonly used to assault a fixed position or to breach the line of the enemy."

"As with every BattleMech, the Awesome is not without flaws. While devastating at range, it is less efficient in point-blank combat, where its PPCs have a harder time connecting with the target. It only has a Diverse Optics small laser and its left fist to fall back on in that situation. Its reduced mobility makes it vulnerable to flanking attacks by faster opponents who eagerly seek to get clear of the PPCs. While they face some of the thickest rear armor found on any BattleMech, the lack of rear facing weapons, or of a weapon mount on the Awesome’s left arm, have given many MechWarriors a fighting chance against it."

"To achieve the Awesome's superb offensive and defensive capabilities, maneuverability was sacrificed. With its heavy structure, the Awesome is slow and cannot react to attacks from the rear as well as can BattleMechs with a greater number of weapons. It is also susceptible to damage in its legs, which could easily immobilize it or make it topple."

"The Awesome is effective when used for the purposes its designers had in mind. If the 'Mech is mishandled or poorly screened from flanking enemy units, however, it will not be able to fight off lighter 'Mechs quickly enough to keep from being surrounded."

(all from TRO 3025 and TRO 3039)

In other words, the Awesome is supposed to be in the first wave of an attack force... and sit back with an escort and pound the defenders from afar. It's also heavily-armored, slow, ponderous. and highly inadept and ill-prepared for close combat (e.g. [color=#b27204]brawling[/color]).
The source material even tells us, in essence, that using in a manner other than that for which it was obviously designed (that is, as a [color=#b27204]sniper[/color] and siege platform), one is "going to have a bad time".

Well that's interesting, I must have a different TRO version or something.

Volthorne, on 15 June 2013 - 09:30 PM, said:

Wait. Excuse me? The Awesome is a BRAWLER? How much stupid can you cram into a single post?


I'd request you get banned from the forums, but being mentally challenged isn't a bannable offense, unfortunately. Please leave and never come back.

Why don't you take a look at my post *****. I said in LORE not in game. YOU need to get banned from the forums, you fail to post constructive and non insulting posts.

[Pando]

Darren Tyler, on 14 June 2013 - 07:13 AM, said:

That is the mech's weakness. Catapult has always been meant as a support mech. Most heavies are meant to be support mechs. This is true in battletech, mechwarrior, and novels.
It is fine.

Developers have already stated it will be looked at and adjusted...it will probably be adjusted to a single "sheet" of "glass" instead of the entire cockpit worth of "glass", which will put it on-par with newer hitbox adjusted battlemechs.

[Volts]

About time PGI nerfed that aws build.

Heat Management patch, AWS can no longer boat more than 3 SPL to preserve game balance.

4 SPL = +10 heat
5 SPL = +20 heat
6 SPL = +40 heat and CT internal dmg

MAKE IT HAPPEN

[TheFlyingScotsman]

I pilot this. (I call it the Hunchjack.)
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ed7f6397c8c09bf

And I must say, at least more than half of my kills against Catapults have been headshots. It's just so easy to hit, that all you have to do is be slightly patient and aim correctly. They just sorta drop dead. A couple of them have even had mostly full armor everywhere else when I killed them.

It really does need an adjustment for the 'Mech to continue being viable.

[Scromboid]

Far too large. As are side torsos.