233 replies to this topic

[Volthorne]

Darren Tyler, on 16 June 2013 - 04:55 AM, said:

Why don't you take a look at my post *****. I said in LORE not in game. YOU need to get banned from the forums, you fail to post constructive and non insulting posts.

And clearly you didn't visit the Sarna article, because nowhere does it even mention being a brawler. There's your LORE.

[ExtremeA79]

Volthorne, on 16 June 2013 - 02:38 PM, said:

And clearly you didn't visit the Sarna article, because nowhere does it even mention being a brawler. There's your LORE.

Well I looked in my TRO, now shut up and actually post something constructive instead of something degenerative and insulting or leave.
This is not a place for the immature like you.

[ExtremeA79]

There was a reason that devs deleted some posts here including yours. Don't waste their time by making another similar post.

[TheFlyingScotsman]

Jagers and Catapults are both supposed to be long range fire-support. The catapults (aside from the K2 karitapult) are indirect fire support and jagers are direct-fire support. (The initial variant of which had LRMs). Neither are meant for brawling, and only the K2 and Jager truly get away with it due to the current high-alpha meta that has been generated by lack of weight limits, poor laser and missile performance and oddly precise weapons convergence.

The side torsos and center torso hitboxes of the Cat are fine, but the cockpit hitbox is too large and vulnerable. People should be aiming for the ears, not the face. :3

[Volthorne]

Darren Tyler, on 16 June 2013 - 02:46 PM, said:

Well I looked in my TRO, now shut up and actually post something constructive instead of something degenerative and insulting or leave.
This is not a place for the immature like you.

And you call what you've been posting "constructive"? Please go back and re-read all of your posts, because clearly you're blind. You've done nothing but troll, lie and spout bull. You have presented no logical arguments for keeping the Catapult as-is with such a debilitating cockpit hitbox, nor have you actually said anything beyond what an argument coming form a a 6-year-old would sound like.

Please tell me how I'M the immature one.

Edited by Volthorne, 16 June 2013 - 03:59 PM.

[ExtremeA79]

Volthorne, on 16 June 2013 - 03:51 PM, said:

And you call what you've been posting "constructive"? Please go back and re-read all of your posts, because clearly you're blind. You've done nothing but troll, lie and spout bull. You have presented no logical arguments for keeping the Catapult as-is with such a debilitating cockpit hitbox, nor have you actually said anything beyond what an argument coming form a a 6-year-old would sound like.

Please tell me how I'M the immature one.

I have contributed to this conversation and have not been trolling.
The only thing you have done here was insult me and calling me a mentally challenged person who should be banned. How is that constructive in anyway?
If all you are going to do is insult, leave this topic between the people that want to talk.

[BeardyMcJohnFace]

I don't mind non-bralwers like the Cat having larger cockpits but it is totally out of line with other mechs in similar roles and should be fixed, either by making it smaller or other non-brawlers' larger (my vote's on smaller). Most of my cockpit kills are against poor lil Cats...

[Volthorne]

Not trolling? Contributing to the discussion? Let me show you some things:

Spoiler

Darren Tyler said:

That is the mech's weakness. Catapult has always been meant as a support mech. Most heavies are meant to be support mechs. This is true in battletech, mechwarrior, and novels.
It is fine.
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Yes, yes.
The ability to be able to boat missiles has to be offset. That is why there is a giant head.
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Again it is a support mech, not a armored brawler. Catapult is fine, you want a brawler? Get a Assault or medium mech.
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You must not be using it right. What is your loadout and what do you do with it? Tactics? Role?
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That did not answer my question. All mechs have their goods and bads. Catapult? Jumpjets, versatility, and the ability to boat LRM's. It is not a brawler, it is a support mech. If you are not using it as a support mech then that is why you are dying.
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The head is what balances out the catapults advantages. Each mech has a different way to be used that fits one's playstyle. Why don't you do a exercise and list all advantages and disadvantages of these 'support' mechs. Include tonnage.
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Autocannons don't shoot down aircraft, LBX's do. DUH DUH DIR.
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If you were smart you would know I am referring to the standard autocannon and the LBX variant.
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Because all these mechs have their ups and downs, all have different ways to be used in their role you want them for or the role they are optimized for. Yes lets make this boring and introduce the same downs. Sure none are as significant as a giant head but ALL have their ups and downs. Thinking that all should have a large is SIMPLY boring. Yes, lets have all mechs pretty much be the same blah blah. If you don't like the catapult, then choose another mech to your liking. I, for one, enjoy my A1 and C4.
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The awesome is ineffective in its role because a STALKER can easily replace it, and has a smaller profile.
Catapults are useful, the awesome is not.
You guys are just complaining because you cannot put it to a proper use.
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To offset its advantages?
You aren't using it right, I have NO problem piloting my catapult.
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Then you are a good pilot. If you are able to kill them so easily, congratulations!
They had made a mistake on using them, or you managed to close in.
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No, I have not. I have argued that the catapult is not underpowered, and that there is nothing needing to be done about the head size.
What exactly is this straight answer you are looking for? If you want something, just ask.

I would not say K2 is a viable mech. I feel that mech is easily replaced by other mechs.
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The catapult is not in a bad place right now. It's ridiculous that you guys whine and complain about it. I use a catapult in pug and pre-made and have no problems with it at all. I have said this before but obviously you are not using it right. The catapult is a support mech, not a brawler, and that is very likely the reason you are dying. You are brawling. With the catapult you have to stay out of sight, out of range.
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Awesome's are not support mech and mediums tend to be miniature brawlers. Whoever told you this is a *****. That or you are a ***** for quite possibly lying to get your point across.
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I have owned a Stalker before and I was pleased, but a catapult offers better mobility compared to it and I prefer it in long range combat.
There are such things as support mechs, you support your team when you spot, you support your team when you shield them with ECM, you support your team by softening targets with LRM's.
You need to recheck what support is when you state that there is no such thing as support. COD is a example of a game with no support in there. The closest to being support are killstreaks. This game isn't COD, not even close, and there are support roles here.
Catapults are not outclassed by Jagermechs, catapults offer better mobility and range. Jagermechs have to get closer in combat while having (the stock at least) 6 tons of STD armor. Obviously you are not looking well at these mechs.
Quit whining and play the game.
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I had never said Awesomes are great. I am fully aware of their problems. Lore wise, they ARE brawlers, and people here use them as such. Awesome's are not good in support roles as others perform better there, and as brawlers, their CT is big, so the awesome has no place now.
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Well I looked in my TRO, now shut up and actually post something constructive instead of something degenerative and insulting or leave.
This is not a place for the immature like you.
-----------------------------------------------
I have contributed to this conversation and have not been trolling.
The only thing you have done here was insult me and calling me a mentally challenged person who should be banned. How is that constructive in anyway?
If all you are going to do is insult, leave this topic between the people that want to talk.

You see all of this ****? This is every single post you've made in this thread, bar 3. Every single one of these was not consructive, was not contributing, and certainly was not posted by someone who knows what they're talking about. I am physically mad that you would even dare SUGGEST that you have been doing ANYTHING of worth in this thread.

Get the hell out and don't come back. If you do, I will report you for trolling and attempting to derail the thread. YOU LOSE. GOOD DAY, SIR.

Edit: forums decided they don't want to work so I'm going to edit in all of the posts one by one. Also apparently you can only quote so many things before it won;t allow you to, so I'll just do a mega quote and separate the different posts with ---.

Edited by Volthorne, 16 June 2013 - 06:36 PM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Used to be the case but they have really shrunk it down alot to the point where headshots on Catapults are more accidently than aimed most of the time now. Still even though it is a relatively small target anymore, it still suffers from the unfortunate circumstance of being located dead center mass of the torso which is also the most common aimpoint when firing at an enemy mech. This means it still is going to take alot of accidental fire even if people aren't specifically trying for a headshot.

Of course other mechs suffer this as well. Both the Awesome and Cataphract for example have cockpits located very close to dead center mass although they are a bit better off because the cockpit is located just up of center mass giving them a bit more protection form that same accidental fire I was mentioning the Catapult has to deal with.

[ExtremeA79]

Volthorne, on 16 June 2013 - 06:19 PM, said:

Not trolling? Contributing to the discussion? Let me show you some things:

Spoiler

You see all of this ****? This is every single post you've made in this thread, bar 3. Every single one of these was not consructive, was not contributing, and certainly was not posted by someone who knows what they're talking about. I am physically mad that you would even dare SUGGEST that you have been doing ANYTHING of worth in this thread.

Get the hell out and don't come back. If you do, I will report you for trolling and attempting to derail the thread. YOU LOSE. GOOD DAY, SIR.

Edit: forums decided they don't want to work so I'm going to edit in all of the posts one by one.

And what have you posted?

"I think it's clear by now that Darren Tyler has absolutely no clue what he's talking about, as he's trying to side-step giving a straight answer. I would go even further to say that he's been trolling this thread the whole time.
5/10, probably wouldn't read again."

"And for the first time I'm agreeing with PEEF. There aren't any significant advantages that the Catapult has that requires it to have such a ridiculously large cockpit hitbox that can be shot from the side. As in 90°. When it was a robotic space-owl and could torso-twist almost 180° I would agree that a large cockpit MIGHT have been necessary. Now it's just overkill."


"Give me a straight answer to this then. What "advantages" does a Catapult have that no other 'Mech does?"

"This thread would disagree with you: http://mwomercs.com/...-localisation/. Second post is where the Catapult is, btw."

"Someday. Although I would argue that the 4X doesn't need an engine buff for two reasons:
1) It has JJs.
2) I foolishly made the claim (in another thread) that a 4X can mount double the firepower of any Jenner (that means 7 sustained DPS). With the upcoming MG buff, that's going to be entirely possible, a claim none of the other Ravens can make.
/offtopic"

"And clearly you didn't visit the Sarna article, because nowhere does it even mention being a brawler. There's your LORE."

"And you call what you've been posting "constructive"? Please go back and re-read all of your posts, because clearly you're blind. You've done nothing but troll, lie and spout bull. You have presented no logical arguments for keeping the Catapult as-is with such a debilitating cockpit hitbox, nor have you actually said anything beyond what an argument coming form a a 6-year-old would sound like.
Please tell me how I'M the immature one."

Your first post here was a insult. Some have been about this thread but after that its all about me. I have not insulted you once, I have tried to keep it civil. YOU have been derailing the thread. Because of you the end of this thread is mostly you and I responding to eachother. You started this stupid thing.
I have been defending what I think is good for this game, which is keeping the head size of the catapult. That is all. If you report me, I hope the admin takes a good look at all your posts before making a decision.

"To offset its advantages?
You aren't using it right, I have NO problem piloting my catapult."

And exactly HOW is that trolling?

[Volthorne]

Darren Tyler, on 16 June 2013 - 06:35 PM, said:

Your first post here was a insult. Some have been about this thread but after that its all about me. I have not insulted you once, I have tried to keep it civil. YOU have been derailing the thread. Because of you the end of this thread is mostly you and I responding to eachother. You started this stupid thing.
I have been defending what I think is good for this game, which is keeping the head size of the catapult. That is all. If you report me, I hope the admin takes a good look at all your posts before making a decision.

And exactly HOW is that trolling?

Firstly, go back and read through my previous post, now that it's been fixed.

Secondly, reported. I warned you bro.

Edited by Volthorne, 16 June 2013 - 06:41 PM.

[Arctu]

Darren Tyler, on 15 June 2013 - 06:12 PM, said:

I have owned a Stalker before and I was pleased, but a catapult offers better mobility compared to it and I prefer it in long range combat.

Compared to a Stalker, the Catapult is indeed more maneuverable. When you compare it to other mechs of its weight class (namely the Jagermechs), its not.

The Catapult can mount a 315 engine - so can all Jagermechs. The Firebrand can even use a 340 engine. Remember that those mechs have the same weight. While the Catapult has a slight advantage in horizontal torso twist, the Jagermechs can twist the torso more in vertical direction.

By the way, mobilty is not something you really need in long range combat ... it gives you much more benefit in brawling, when you can close to the enemy faster and circle them to avoid damage.

Darren Tyler, on 15 June 2013 - 06:12 PM, said:

There are such things as support mechs, you support your team when you spot, you support your team when you shield them with ECM, you support your team by softening targets with LRM's.

Lets assume for a moment that you are right here. So what qualifies mechs to perform these support roles:

- Spot targets - Requirement: Be fast and hard to detect => Light mechs
- ECM - Requirement: Have a ECM hardpoint => Some Light Mechs, Cicada, Atlas
- Softening targets up - Requirement: Have weapons => Every mech in the game

So what makes the Catapult better at softening targets up than any other mechs. It can't be that it has missile slots, because most of the mechs in game have plenty missile hardpoints. An Awsome 8R or any Stalker is a way better missile boat than the Catapults - even when not taking the huge cockpit hitbox into consideration. I even consider the Jagermech A to be a better missile boat than (or at least on par with) the Catapults since the slot layout suits me better.

Your argument is not convincing.

Darren Tyler, on 15 June 2013 - 06:12 PM, said:

Catapults are not outclassed by Jagermechs, catapults offer better mobility and range. Jagermechs have to get closer in combat while having (the stock at least) 6 tons of STD armor. Obviously you are not looking well at these mechs.
Quit whining and play the game.

I currently have 14 mechs in my mechbay (and I already sold almost the same number), I think, with the exception of one highlander, they are all at master level. I've played 3 Catapults (K2, A1 and C1) and all Jagermechs except the Firebrand. I also tried several identical setups on both Jagermechs and Catapults. This puts me in a position to objectively compare the Catapults capability with other mechs any my conclusion is that it is too weak and needs to be fixed.
With the excetion of a Raven, the Catapults were my first mechs and thus have a special place in my heart. I am demanding new hitboxes on the forums to make it a decent mech choice again. Until this is happening, I'll stick to my Stalkers.

Edited by Arctu, 17 June 2013 - 02:42 AM.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Darren Tyler, on 14 June 2013 - 10:10 AM, said:

Yes, it can brawl, but it isn't optimized for it. High alpha should not be used all the time, but as a final punch, or a final shot before you die as you are swarmed.

I'm glad you believe that way. The more people who underestimate the potential of that mech (specifically the C1), the more succesful I am with it. Take it for granted and write it off, just don't be suprised when it beats you in a boxing match

Edited by MeiSooHaityu, 17 June 2013 - 05:35 AM.

[Suko]

Darren Tyler, on 16 June 2013 - 02:46 PM, said:

Well I looked in my TRO, now shut up and actually post something constructive instead of something degenerative and insulting or leave.
This is not a place for the immature like you.

Says the guy that has more censored words in his post than anyone else in this thread.

Oh, the irony.

[ExtremeA79]

ShadowVFX, on 17 June 2013 - 09:31 AM, said:

Says the guy that has more censored words in his post than anyone else in this thread.

Oh, the irony.

Have you seen Volt's posts? Practically every single one of them has a censored word in there.

Edited by Darren Tyler, 17 June 2013 - 09:46 AM.

[ExtremeA79]

Volthorne, on 16 June 2013 - 06:38 PM, said:

Firstly, go back and read through my previous post, now that it's been fixed.

Secondly, reported. I warned you bro.

I have already reported you and have been reporting you. So far no action has been taken. Don't expect a admin to 'ban me' or delete this thread.

[Rattazustra]

I honestly can't remember the last time my Catapult got shot in the head. Or any of my mechs for that matter. I usually lower head armor to 2/3 or even 1/3 to save tonnage because it happens so rarely. It used to be different, but for the past 400+ matches I played there was not one single heat shot I had to suffer. I scored a few on enemies, but it did not happen to me.

Thus it doesn't look like a balance issue to me.

[ExtremeA79]

Arctu, on 17 June 2013 - 02:33 AM, said:

Compared to a Stalker, the Catapult is indeed more maneuverable. When you compare it to other mechs of its weight class (namely the Jagermechs), its not.

The Catapult can mount a 315 engine - so can all Jagermechs. The Firebrand can even use a 340 engine. Remember that those mechs have the same weight. While the Catapult has a slight advantage in horizontal torso twist, the Jagermechs can twist the torso more in vertical direction.

By the way, mobilty is not something you really need in long range combat ... it gives you much more benefit in brawling, when you can close to the enemy faster and circle them to avoid damage.




Lets assume for a moment that you are right here. So what qualifies mechs to perform these support roles:

- Spot targets - Requirement: Be fast and hard to detect => Light mechs
- ECM - Requirement: Have a ECM hardpoint => Some Light Mechs, Cicada, Atlas
- Softening targets up - Requirement: Have weapons => Every mech in the game

So what makes the Catapult better at softening targets up than any other mechs. It can't be that it has missile slots, because most of the mechs in game have plenty missile hardpoints. An Awsome 8R or any Stalker is a way better missile boat than the Catapults - even when not taking the huge cockpit hitbox into consideration. I even consider the Jagermech A to be a better missile boat than (or at least on par with) the Catapults since the slot layout suits me better.

Your argument is not convincing.



I currently have 14 mechs in my mechbay (and I already sold almost the same number), I think, with the exception of one highlander, they are all at master level. I've played 3 Catapults (K2, A1 and C1) and all Jagermechs except the Firebrand. I also tried several identical setups on both Jagermechs and Catapults. This puts me in a position to objectively compare the Catapults capability with other mechs any my conclusion is that it is too weak and needs to be fixed.
With the excetion of a Raven, the Catapults were my first mechs and thus have a special place in my heart. I am demanding new hitboxes on the forums to make it a decent mech choice again. Until this is happening, I'll stick to my Stalkers.

Ok, I am seeing your point, but just minimizing the head hitbox is not going to fix everything, especially since the JJ nerf reduced its effectiveness.
If Catapults are to be as good as Jagermechs, I think for one they need to be able to have bigger engines, and for two, JJ's need a buff.
I have been affected by JJ nerf as it gives me headaches when I fly. Other than that I am great in catapults.
If you people REALLY believe it is outclassed then there should be some buffs, but I don't expect hitbox changes are going to change much.

Edited by Darren Tyler, 17 June 2013 - 09:52 AM.

[Gallowglas]

Providing an easy option for instantly killing a mech isn't balance or, at least, not good balance. There's effectively no way for a K2 in particular to protect against it. Regardless of the "support mech" label people are tossing out, the K2 doesn't fit into that category. Whatever the case, when a penalty like this is applied to a mech that no longer even stands out from its peers in its supposed roles, it's not just a poor balancing mechanic. It's a thoroughly unnecessary one.

Honestly, if you haven't been headshotted disproportionately frequently in a Catapult, you're probably playing against poor players. Try piloting a mech with a semi-decent alpha and actually TRY to get a cockpit hit. You'll see what I mean by them being ridiculously easy to headshot. Even if you don't kill one, I guarantee you'll see them take head damage, which is somewhat rare with other mechs. I'm not an amazing shot, but it's nearly trivial for me.

Edited by Gallowglas, 17 June 2013 - 09:52 AM.

[ExtremeA79]

Gallowglas, on 17 June 2013 - 09:51 AM, said:

Providing an easy option for instantly killing a mech isn't balance or, at least, not good balance. There's effectively no way for a K2 in particular to protect against it. Regardless of the "support mech" label people are tossing out, the K2 doesn't fit into that category. Regardless, when a penalty like this is applied to a mech that no longer even stands out from its peers in its supposed roles, it's not just a poor balancing mechanic. It's a thoroughly unnecessary one.

Honestly, if you haven't been headshotted disproportionately frequently in a Catapult, you're probably playing against poor players. Try piloting a mech with a semi-decent alpha and actually TRY to get a cockpit hit. You'll see what I mean by them being ridiculously easy to headshot. Even if you don't kill one, I guarantee you'll see them take head damage, which is somewhat rare with other mechs. I'm not an amazing shot, but it's nearly trivial for me.

I agree with the K2 no longer standing out. Many people used them as snipers and it sure does look like a sniper mech. Able to carry ER PPC's and Gauss rifles makes it a good candidate for sniping. However ever since the Highlander arrived I have barely seen them. Granted it was sort of a relief as before I used to see teams FULL of K2's and it was annoying as they alpha'd you to death. The problem was the worst on Alpine. K2 is outclassed by other snipers. I don't own it and never intend to.