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"early Tests Are Showing That There Is Not Much Of An Advantage"


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#41 scJazz

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 05:06 AM

View PostPEEFsmash, on 14 June 2013 - 11:20 PM, said:


Thanks for the opportunity to explain. It all comes back to competitive because the game should be balanced at a high-level. As in, something might seem to be a problem at low-levels of play, but with improvement to your own play, you will be able to handle what you previously thought was imbalanced. Here's the example I always use. Light circle strafing is considered "overpowered" by bad players. It is okay vs mid level players, and it is absolutely awful vs top players, because top players can counter-strafe, aim, and use other anti-light tactics. In situations like this, lights should not be nerfed just because bad players have not learned or cannot execute the techniques necessary to deal with circle strafing. The game should be balanced based on the top competitive level, as in...if something is not overpowered at the level of play of the best players, it is not nerfed. If this philosophy was accepted, then a culture of self-improvement would follow. Instead of "wahhhh I want to nerf lights because they move too fast!" people would ask, "Okay, so top players can deal with light circle strafing. How do you do it? What techniques do you use?"

This attitude change would let PGI make a great competitive game instead of catering balance to the whining of low and mid-level gamers who don't want to improve their own play, but want balance to be based on their own poor aim, poor positioning, and poor situational awareness.


Wow, so on one hand he sounds almost reasonable and then demands oscillating vertical epeen strokage in the next breath. Peef, I know you can't do this but at least try to imagine what it would be like to make a post without referring to your uberskillz.

#42 Chemie

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 05:20 AM

The fact that FPV is now called "hardcore" should tell you something about why PGI believes so strongly about 3PV...(despite original claims that they loved FPV and that was all MWO would ever get).

and while us Hardcore do want FPV, I can imagae there will be enough "trolls" who decide to drop in easymode (sorry, "normal" mode) to take advantage of that little extra advantage to kill all those poor little 3PV players.

Edit: Which is really funny if you think about it because then all the 3PV easymode players will come to the foums to QQ about how their game has been ruined by the FPV trolls. Ban the FPV trolls.

Edited by Chemie, 15 June 2013 - 05:26 AM.


#43 InRev

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 05:20 AM

View PostscJazz, on 15 June 2013 - 05:06 AM, said:


Wow, so on one hand he sounds almost reasonable and then demands oscillating vertical epeen strokage in the next breath. Peef, I know you can't do this but at least try to imagine what it would be like to make a post without referring to your uberskillz.


He's gotta make his video game skill relevant somehow, amirite?

Dear old mum told him he'd never get anywhere playing all those damned vidya games, but he'll prove her wrong once he's pulling the strings like a game balance puppet-master! "See you old hag! These random faceless peons on the internet bow down to my skill! Even the devs cower before my prowess"

Meanwhile, in the real world which is populated by a majority of casual no-*****-given players, life goes on . . .

#44 Sug

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 05:25 AM

Incoming 3-steps-back.

#45 Fabe

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 05:26 AM

View PostEJT, on 15 June 2013 - 01:40 AM, said:


As I'm sure you're aware, there are FAR more low and mid-level gamers in the world than hard-core gamers. I think it goes without saying that PGI can't alienate those players and still have a successful title. I think you understand this and probably agree. My impression is that you think most players want to get better, that they would enjoy the game more if they improved, and that they SHOULD take the time to improve. If they don't take the time to improve, then it's their fault and they don't belong here.

I strongly disagree.

In my case, I'm just looking to have a good time with this game. I work hard (and think hard) all day. I don't come here to work. I come here to play. I come here to unwind. I am interested in some level of improvement, but I'm not interested in putting a lot of time and energy into this game because, quite frankly, there are more important things to put my time and energy into than a video game. If this is the most important thing you have going on in your life and if you want to work hard to reach the top of it, then knock yourself out. The world is a big place and there's room for everybody. I'm not judging. But I think when most players fill out their new years resolutions, I'm guessing "Be a Better Mechwarrior" doesn't make their top ten.

In order for this game to be successful (and we both want it to be successful) PGI needs to find a reliable player base. In my opinion, catering to the "top level" players is not the way to grow the player base. Catering to the masses isn't the answer either. While people might think catering to the masses brings in the biggest crowd, it's not true. If you create another mindless shooter, then your title gets lost in the vast sea of mindless shooters and you're just another "me-too" clone in a tough market. None of us (including PGI) wants MWO to compete in that market.

No, I think PGI is aiming for a sweet spot where the game is more challenging than a mindless shooter while still being approachable to casual players, and where there is some room to grow for people who are serious about it. In my opinion, you can't achieve all that with tunnel vision on only the top level of play. You also can't have tunnel vision on the cries of the masses. It's all more complicated than that.

The devs are trying to build something that appeals to a wide range of players, and I for one like where they are headed and I hope they succeed.

This is pretty much what my thoughts and feelings are. Making the game to easy and it'll get lost in a sea of other easy games but if make it to hard you'll drive away every one except for the small group of "elite pro" players who I imagine will get bored palying the same matches against the same people and quit.

But if they balance towards the mid level then we'll have something that more players can enjoy while still being challenging. If people like PEEF are as good as they claim they will still dominate while allowing for other to maybe occasionally give them a run for their money. Then again maybe the risk of others giving them a challenge is why they want it balanced to the pro" end only,no danger of someone knocking you off the top of the mountain if they can't reach it

Edited by Fabe, 15 June 2013 - 05:28 AM.


#46 Junkman7mgte

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 05:45 AM

View PostPEEFsmash, on 14 June 2013 - 11:35 PM, said:


It works just fine in most other gaming communities that have a competitive community. Fighting games, Starcraft, MOBAs, etc.


Sure, and that would be why Blizzard has lost 1/5 of the subscribed player base since the last expansion launched .... 9 months ago. 10 million subscription at launch, last Sept. vs. 8 million subs at last quarterly announcement. The "Elite" got there game, the rest are trickling away.

#47 Zerberus

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 06:35 AM

View PostFabe, on 15 June 2013 - 05:26 AM, said:

Then again maybe the risk of others giving them a challenge is why they want it balanced to the pro" end only,no danger of someone knocking you off the top of the mountain if they can't reach it

Which interestingly enough is based entirely off of their purely subjective assumption that they are on the top of the mountain to begin with. That`s why they think they`re cool because they can flame people for doing "only" 400 damage, 3 kills and 3 assists, with only 4 tons of LRM ammo and nothing else.

To them (and probably most women) their e-peen is the only one worth stroking, because they`re "so good" they can magically deactivate enemy defensive systems and double their ammo counts, but panties and bras regularly present a challenge, just like PUGs w/ skill :huh: :D

In all honesty, "I think I`m a badass 1337 play0r, so I must be" is the only logical train of though possible without including even more obvious logical fallacies and self delusional concepts.

Much like a Tuna Fish "knows" it`s the king of the sea... until a Great White Shark takes it`s tail off and watches it struggle and bleed out. Much like I take great pride in finding the self proclaimed "pros" (should the enemy team have them) and humiliating them with a Flamer or MG kill. :rolleyes:

Edited by Zerberus, 15 June 2013 - 06:44 AM.


#48 General Taskeen

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 06:59 AM

I'm still going to select the box that will likely say "1PV Matches Only," so I don't see the big deal.

#49 Adrienne Vorton

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 07:11 AM

there is just a "slight" advantage in coolant flush, in 3rd person and pretty much everything that pushed MWO further towards the arcade crowd... the future is casual, not much more to say really

#50 Sam Slade

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 08:21 AM

View PostPEEFsmash, on 14 June 2013 - 11:01 PM, said:

... if they had any top competitive players on their balance team but they don't...


They have accounting staff who can run an excel warrior sheet and make leet-pro-skilz mechs right? I think it's been concluded before that 'super-clicky-APM' isn't skill of any note(anyone can do it with repitition).

View PostDV McKenna, on 15 June 2013 - 03:36 AM, said:

...what publishers like EA said at the start, there is not a substantial enough market for this game, and is why we ended up here in the F2P market....


Anything from EA comes with a grain of salt. The run away success of F2P has destroyed EAs PC market share(as their recent 'we have to be nice to customers because we screwed you with Dead Space' media efforts show).

On topic; NO 3rd Person View!!!

#51 Soy

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 09:37 AM

3PV is cool.

I always read about peoples old MW experiences, and how that applies to this game or how they think MWO should be like this game or that game. Which is cool.

I think for once I'll use that type of logic as well...

My 'main' mech experience, in terms of hours logged playing and kicking butt, is not MW. It was Battlefield 2142. By time I quit I had cracked the top 50 board for the battlewalker. That game had multiple camera views when in vehicles.

Am I a newb cuz of that? I dunno, and I duncare, cuz honestly I'll bury any of you in this game regardless of camera angle.

I look forward to using 3pv, if it's tasteful and interactive. If not, well, we'll see what happens. All that matters is if it's fun and balanced, if it's not then the game is in [more] trouble.

Edited by Soy, 15 June 2013 - 09:38 AM.


#52 PEEFsmash

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 09:57 AM

View PostZerberus, on 15 June 2013 - 06:35 AM, said:

Which interestingly enough is based entirely off of their purely subjective assumption that they are on the top of the mountain to begin with. That`s why they think they`re cool because they can flame people for doing "only" 400 damage, 3 kills and 3 assists, with only 4 tons of LRM ammo and nothing else.

To them (and probably most women) their e-peen is the only one worth stroking, because they`re "so good" they can magically deactivate enemy defensive systems and double their ammo counts, but panties and bras regularly present a challenge, just like PUGs w/ skill :huh: :D

In all honesty, "I think I`m a badass 1337 play0r, so I must be" is the only logical train of though possible without including even more obvious logical fallacies and self delusional concepts.

Much like a Tuna Fish "knows" it`s the king of the sea... until a Great White Shark takes it`s tail off and watches it struggle and bleed out. Much like I take great pride in finding the self proclaimed "pros" (should the enemy team have them) and humiliating them with a Flamer or MG kill. :rolleyes:


First of all, you are clearly describing your own self-delusion if you think you are killing top players with flamers and machineguns. I would be surprised if you could name a top player you've killed at all.

Secondly, I am the number-one supporter of making Elo public so that we actually know where people really stand as far as skill. Many many players in this game hide behind their veil of anonymity and proclaim to be great. I have nothing to hide, I stream all of my matches on www.twitch.tv/peefsmash, etc.

#53 Zerberus

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 10:11 AM

View PostPEEFsmash, on 15 June 2013 - 09:57 AM, said:


First of all, you are clearly describing your own self-delusion if you think you are killing top players with flamers and machineguns. I would be surprised if you could name a top player you've killed at all.


Koreanese, more than once. Garth, more than once. Not in my MG spider, but you were saying what again Mr. Überfucking Mechlord of Elo supremacy?

Or are you running away from the thread again becasue you`re afraid that you`ll be shown for what you are, again? Like when you hilariously tried to belittle me for "only" doing 426 damage with 4 tons of LRM ammo in another thread, clearly displaying your ignorance for all to see and mock?

Those BTW are the only two I actively noticed other that Roadbeer, simply because I know them. Unlike stats-h0rny kids, I don`t care who I kill, or even if I kill ANYONE, becasue the only thing that is important is to do my job to make sure my TEAM wins.

As yoon as introductions are done, your name means nothing, andyour playstyle means everything. ANd if you`re playing the way the self proclaimed "Pros" on teh forum purport to, I will see it and do my best to ruin your day. I don`t need to know someone`s name to kick their ***, this isn`t second grade and nobody wants my lunch money, names mean nothing.

IMO anybody looking at the chat to see who killed who or even registering peoples names when targeted is clearly e-peening... "Target Alpha Cicada, down, target Bravo Centurion, On it, ..." is what TEAMS say in TS, nobody gives a flying **** who exactly it was that you killed, just that he`s dead and it`s time for the next guy to get focused.

Quote

Secondly, I am the number-one supporter of making Elo public so that we actually know where people really stand as far as skill. Many many players in this game hide behind their veil of anonymity and proclaim to be great. I have nothing to hide, I stream all of my matches on www.twitch.tv/peefsmash, etc.


Judging by your posts and their universally condescending and belittling nature, including the one quoted, your entire intent is to use it as ammunition for your ego.fueled "I rock and everyone else is a ******* noob" posting style. Either that or you`re just a misinformed kid who thinks he`s such a ******* badass that he just can`t stop insulting everyone he talks to. Not your fault if so, probably society`s, but it`s in your hands to improve yourself, not society`s.

As I`ve said before, your opinions don`t mean jack **** if you can`t voice them without being intentionally insulting to everyone else in the thread at some point.

It`s not about having something to hide. You don`t have to hide anything if people don`t care who you are and what you say. :huh:

TLDR: Condescending, elitiist, "born pro gamer becasue I think so" conduct such as yours is EXACTLY the reason we will NEVER get a public Elo score. And I honestly hope it ****** you and the other e-peners off so much that you eventually explode and either leave or get banned.

Edited by Zerberus, 15 June 2013 - 10:35 AM.


#54 xengk

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 10:15 AM

View PostVictor Morson, on 15 June 2013 - 01:41 AM, said:

"Great news guys! The feature literally nobody wants, not even the nebulous "Asian Market", is going well in development!"

I am from Asia region and is actually looking forward to try out 3pv.
So there is at least 1 mythical Asian Market player here.

View PostSephlock, on 15 June 2013 - 04:50 AM, said:

Funny, people keep saying this is a beta, and we're testers, etc... so why aren't we the ones testing this stuff, hmm :huh:?


Because we are? :D

There are 2 type of testers, internal and public.
Internal tester could be made up of only PGI staff, but might very well also made up of a mix of staffs and selected players ala Close Beta last year. If that is the case, they probably have to sign a NDA similar to we did previously and have their own secret forum sections.

We the public tester are stress tester.
We provide what the internal tester cannot; high volume of data for analysis, exploitation that small number of tester did not thought of, and basically brute forcing the game to reveal flaws in the system design.

The release of the Test Server are probably PGI doing away with the bulk of Internal Tester, either they are doing a bad job or development have enter a phase where they are confident with the game.
Most likely there will 3 version of the client; Public Server, Test Server and Internal Server.
Content will get developed and have a round of tests Internally to make sure there is no show-stopping issue(server/client crash, content is not detected), before getting move to Test Server where player get to test it in "wild environment" for critical bug(glitching, balancing, hardware conflict). Once data are gathered from Test Server, revised and approved for public release, it finally goes to the Public Server where it get tested in real world environment.

#55 Chemie

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 10:22 AM

BTW, no one at PGI seems to fully appreciate that even with just 2 queues, you cut everything in half. We already have assault/conquest so that means you go from 2 queues to 4 queues with each one needing to find optiial ELO and weight match.

Oh, and if they ever do regioanl servers, then you can divide by another factor of 2-3. Even just 2 servers means you are now at 8 queues instead of current 2. That will be a big deal.

#56 xengk

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 10:38 AM

View PostChemie, on 15 June 2013 - 10:22 AM, said:

Oh, and if they ever do regioanl servers, then you can divide by another factor of 2-3. Even just 2 servers means you are now at 8 queues instead of current 2. That will be a big deal.


I believe they previously mention that player base from regional servers will be cut-off from each other.
Player will get a one time change to transfer and forever confine to their selected server/region.

#57 Sephlock

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 10:38 AM

View Postxengk, on 15 June 2013 - 10:15 AM, said:

I am from Asia region and is actually looking forward to try out 3pv.
So there is at least 1 mythical Asian Market player here.


YES!


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The release of the Test Server are probably PGI doing away with the bulk of Internal Tester, either they are doing a bad job or development have enter a phase where they are confident with the game.
Posted Image

#58 Damocles

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 10:42 AM

The thing about FPV is that it does a really good job of hiding the blandness of the maps.

#59 xengk

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 11:36 AM

View PostSephlock, on 15 June 2013 - 10:38 AM, said:

Posted Image


Yes, quite smashing really.
Posted Image

#60 CMDR Sunset Shimmer

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 12:08 PM

Bonehead ideas seem to be the norm for the gaming scene these days, just look at Microsoft with the Xbox One.





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