93 replies to this topic

[Lagster]

... is that there's really only 2 speeds: Fast Enough and Not Fast Enough. Besides moving across the map, in a fight it doesn't matter whether you're going 47 kph or 90 kph - anything bigger than a Cicada and slower than a Raven is going to get hit easily, period. I regularly pilot an Atlas and have no issues training my sights on Dragons, Trebs, or whatever medium/heavy mechs trying to play the evasion game.

Speed works for lights because of their small frame, plus at 135 kph and above it's actually difficult to keep up with them circling you, but medium chassis rarely hit that kind of speed level, even if they can they sacrifice weapon payload to the point they might as well roll a light, plus their larger frame means its a lot easier to hit them.

This essentially means mediums end up being either fragile heavies, or big lights. Neither of which really works very well. The reason why heavies aren't terribad except dragons is because every heavy chassis so far is a boater except dragons. And the dragon is fail at trying to play the speed game.

Just an observation I have, not that I have any real solution to this problem cause having more movement actually helps in battle in the TT but that advantage doesn't really translate as well to an FPS.

[Scarcer]

I think you just need to spend some time figuring out what your role as a medium mech is.

[Scandinavian Jawbreaker]

Scarcer, on 13 June 2013 - 01:24 AM, said:

I think you just need to spend some time figuring out what your role as a medium mech is.

I thought that was PGI's job

[KharnZor]

IV Amen, on 13 June 2013 - 01:30 AM, said:

I thought that was PGI's job

Its not PGI's job to tell you how to pilot your mech

[El Bandito]

The real issue with mediums is their bigger-than-lore size. Centurions and Trebuchets in particular.

[HighlandCoo]

Im actually having this problem with Cicadas - not as fast as a light, bigger than a light, but with the same firepower as a jenner.

I tend to get hit alot and then die

Though I'm pretty certain if I can just figure out the balance between speed, firepower and what my ideal engagement range is (when your fast you generally get to choose ;P) then I think it will be "okay"

[Galenit]

El Bandito, on 13 June 2013 - 01:49 AM, said:

The real issue with mediums is their bigger-than-lore size. Centurions and Trebuchets in particular.

Cicadas too,
and stalkers are to small compared to a catapult.

[Tennex]

the treb is way too big. and the cent could use a shrink as well..

the hunch could be slightly bigger

Edited by Tennex, 13 June 2013 - 02:39 AM.

[OneEyed Jack]

El Bandito, on 13 June 2013 - 01:49 AM, said:

The real issue with mediums is their bigger-than-lore size. Centurions and Trebuchets in particular.

I don't know where this keeps coming from. Aside from a few specific mechs, there isn't this huge variance in height, canonically, that people keep referring to. There's certainly far less variance than in MWO.

[Xeno Phalcon]

OneEyed Jack, on 13 June 2013 - 03:01 AM, said:

I don't know where this keeps coming from. Aside from a few specific mechs, there isn't this huge variance in height, canonically, that people keep referring to. There's certainly far less variance than in MWO.

FupDup also posted this on a thread about tribs (Trib is between dragon and jager):

Edited by Xeno Phalcon, 13 June 2013 - 03:15 AM.

[Mindwipe]

To be fair, you have to account for the profile of the Mech from all angles though. I agree the mediums are too big but if you compare say the shorter Dragon against the Treb, I'd rather be in the Treb in an actual battle as they can twist and turn and keep shots off that CT. Dragons...not so much due to the fact that they're almost square in profile.

Same for the Stalker, whether it's too short or not isn't something I can say given the only 3d models I'm used to are the TT mini's and those aren't a good scale overall, but if the Stalker is short it certainly makes up for it in length, broad side of a barn indeed.

[Cybermech]

To me its more about speed.
If you have all skills unlocked,
the assaults turn to quickly, heavies speed is too fast, mediums are not quick enough and same with lights.
wait till masc comes in and it should make things even worse.

but I use mediums all the time and the only thing to stop me is a wall of assaults, then I just go cap

[Matroid]

This problem is due to engine limits. A long time ago they used to only have one engine limit, and it was

- Mech speed = 16.2 * engine size / tonnage
- Max engine size = tonnage * 8.6 (then round the value to nearest 5)
- Commando is 25 tons * 8.6 ~= 210. that's why he has an XL210 as his maximum engine


This engine limit capped all Mechs to ~140 km/h (without speed tweak), and enabled the game engine to run well. Now it really only had an affect on light mechs because no other mech can really attempt more than 120 km/h without spending their whole tonnage in engine. Medium mechs would usually equip the 300 XL and go 97.2 km/h which gave them the ability to scout and really pound on light mechs. they also had the speed to get away from Heavies and Assaults, and therefore had a great place between Lights and Heavies. what changed was some people were boating small lasers on the HBK-4P (swayback), running up real close behind other mechs and killing them in 1-2 shots in the rear CT. the developers decided that huncbacks were weapons platforms and should be slowed down since they have the strength of high hard-points (similar to Stalkers), so they implemented engine limit #2

Lights = stock engine * 1.4
Mediums = stock engine * 1.3
Heavy/Assault = stock engine * 1.2


because the speed calculation is linear, then you can take a stock mechs speed and multiply it by 1.2 - 1.4 (20 - 40% improvement) to know what his max speed is. this brought medium mechs back down in speed a lot, and now everyone cares the most about what variant you can select

- variants like the RVN-2X and 4X are terrible due to engine speed cap (compared to the 3L)
- variants like the TBT-3C, CN9-D are better than all the others (in the Medium category)
- Cicadas remained relatively unchanged
- Hunchies and Blackjacks are naturally slow and remain that way. hence they get eaten by the mech food chain (ie. Heavies > Mediums). Heavies have the same speed but better weapons and armor load-out


If they lift engine limit #2 then Mediums will make a comeback and become the most popular mech type (isn't this true in lore?), but until then it will continue to be an arms race. people have made threads about this before, but have received no response

Hadros


p.s. they have also implemented increased weapon velocities (PPC, ACs) and host-state-rewind (HSR) which makes hitting mediums and lights even easier. should we be able to use dual-gauss in a K2 or Jager and destroy commandos in one shot? because it does happen

Edited by Hadros, 13 June 2013 - 06:32 AM.

[Beadhanger]

Cybermech, on 13 June 2013 - 03:37 AM, said:

but I use mediums all the time and the only thing to stop me is a wall of assaults, then I just go cap

ah just like....every game then?

[Coralld]

El Bandito, on 13 June 2013 - 01:49 AM, said:

The real issue with mediums is their bigger-than-lore size. Centurions and Trebuchets in particular.

Yep yep, this hits the nail on the head, the Medium bracket is just way to freaking big, Trebs, Cents, Black Jacks, Hunchies, and even the Cicada. They really need a size reduction.

Tennex, on 13 June 2013 - 02:39 AM, said:

the treb is way too big. and the cent could use a shrink as well..

the hunch could be slightly bigger

No, if anything Hunchies need to be slightly smaller because they were never really that big to begin with, also, it helps them have a slightly smaller right shoulder and the Hunchies needs all the love they can get.

Galenit, on 13 June 2013 - 01:51 AM, said:

Cicadas too,
and stalkers are to small compared to a catapult.

Agreed. Stalkers were suppose to be HUGE!! Not just in height but also width, they are suppose to be freaking big 4ss blimps with legs. What we have now is a little mini sub with legs. It makes no sense.

[AlmightyAeng]

I've found that mediums work very well in concert with another medium, or heavy. You gotta play them as a support striker.

While I do agree that mediums often feel like a 'fragile heavy' I've found that running one with a fast heavy that grabs a target's attention but knows how to tank with their arms gives mediums a huge window of opportunity to strike, and strike hard.

I'm a particular fan of the BJ-1X and Firebrand/any Dragon.

[Adridos]

Xeno Phalcon, on 13 June 2013 - 03:08 AM, said:

Here's a newer one:

[SmokinDave73]

it definitely seem's the lack of proper in game size scaling is the biggest issue here for all the mech clases. Until PGI addresses this issue nothing in term's of weight class balance will be achieved.

[Coralld]

Ghost Badger, on 13 June 2013 - 06:53 AM, said:

I've found that mediums work very well in concert with another medium, or heavy. You gotta play them as a support striker.

While I do agree that mediums often feel like a 'fragile heavy' I've found that running one with a fast heavy that grabs a target's attention but knows how to tank with their arms gives mediums a huge window of opportunity to strike, and strike hard.

I'm a particular fan of the BJ-1X and Firebrand/any Dragon.

True but then the question I must ask is, why run a Medium at all when you can run a fast heavy who can match the Mediums speed wile still using a STD Engines and yet still have 50% more armor and firepower other then that you are a fan of Mediums for what ever personal reason?

Also, all these pics of the shadow mechs sizes does not correctly represent what is seen in game. What we need is a in game pic of the mechs side by side.

Edited by Coralld, 13 June 2013 - 07:02 AM.

[Adridos]

Coralld, on 13 June 2013 - 07:01 AM, said:

Also, all these pics of the shadow mechs sizes does not correctly represent what is seen in game....

Actually, this is the most accurate you can get...

I could just make a picture of all mechs standing next to each other in CryEngine, but due to that silly thing called perspective, you wouldn't see anything right except for the one directly in front of the camera.