98 replies to this topic

[Jez]

Scouts just don't have the basic communication tools to effectively work in PUG match.

Can you believe it that to date we still don't have the ability to ping a map, hot key messages, or track previously identified hostiles. Are we really expected to rely on the automatic targeting and typing things out in the chat window? Really? Did the seismic senor module have that much more of a priority than basic comm tools?

[Appogee]

Training Instructor, on 20 June 2013 - 01:54 PM, said:

It's leading to terrible matches for assaults.

Awwww, poor Assaults.

Last night I played 12 matches straight in my Jenner. But it didn't matter whether I scouted, or capped or did anything that a Light should do, the Assaults just waded into the enemy fire and got killed anyway.

And at the end of every game, the Assaults and Heavies all had higher scores than me.

So you tell me: what incentive is there for a Light to do anything other than run around the sides, shooting at the enemy, before the Assaults and Heavies wipe themselves out?

[Tahribator]

I do scout as well and report enemy positions, but seldom my team pays attention to it. Most players don't need to know basic stuff like which way the enemy is going or what mechs they have for most cases. There are several reasons for it.

Firstly, most maps play exactly the same each time and you can anticipate what the enemy is doing without any scouting right under 1 minute by yourself. Seismic module also makes locational scouting unnecessary during the mid-game. These type of scouting is mostly obvious stuff for experienced players.

I believe the most valuable scouting in this game is needed mid-game, which nobody does it. Scout lights(especially Spiders) are the most mobile mechs in this game, able to dive in to the middle of enemy group and come out unscratched. Thus, having access to most valuable information about the enemy.

Knowing that there's a lone Catapult capping Theta, two mediums nearby to our main group which are ready to die, two Jagerbombs flanking through tunnels, enemy LRM boats being seperated from their main group(begging for light harassment), enemy Atlas having his side torso open . . . these small but important tips are what tips the scale of balance in most games.

So, if there's any scouts here I urge you to keep updating your team through the whole game. Inform them of weak enem mechs, lone and vulnerable mecs and sudden flanks by enemy mechs. It's not all about "THEY'RE GOING UPPER, allright I'm finished with scouting.".

Edited by Tahribator, 21 June 2013 - 01:21 AM.

[Jez]

Speaking of lack of incentives for scouts.

We don't get paid $$$ for identifying the # of hostiles, their directions, the mech types, who were the LRM/sniper boats, or if there was a strangler all by himself. Why? Because we did our job at +1000m away from the enemy where they couldn't tell who, what or where had eyes on them.

We don't get paid $$$ for sneaking into the enemy's backfield after the fight has been committed and jamming up their LRM boats, thereby denying the enemy their use of LRM support. I might not have killed those LRM mechs, but I sure as hell took them out of the fight.

We don't get paid $$$ for successfully pulling enemy mechs off the front lines because we either tagged their base or distracted them enough in their backfields.

We get paid less than then brawlers because during the fight we scouts wove our way through the brawl to pick off that enemy mech who had an exposed torso. Since we didn't do a lot of damage and we got the killing shot (you actually get paid less for killing the mech than for just "assisting" on the kill) we get less C-bills than the brawlers.

There is really little to no incentive to scout for a PUG team at the moment.

[Appogee]

Jez, on 21 June 2013 - 01:27 AM, said:

Speaking of lack of incentives for scouts.

We don't get paid $$$ for identifying the # of hostiles, their directions, the mech types, who were the LRM/sniper boats, or if there was a strangler all by himself. Why? Because we did our job at +1000m away from the enemy where they couldn't tell who, what or where had eyes on them.

We don't get paid $$$ for sneaking into the enemy's backfield after the fight has been committed and jamming up their LRM boats, thereby denying the enemy their use of LRM support. I might not have killed those LRM mechs, but I sure as hell took them out of the fight.

We don't get paid $$$ for successfully pulling enemy mechs off the front lines because we either tagged their base or distracted them enough in their backfields.

We get paid less than then brawlers because during the fight we scouts wove our way through the brawl to pick off that enemy mech who had an exposed torso. Since we didn't do a lot of damage and we got the killing shot (you actually get paid less for killing the mech than for just "assisting" on the kill) we get less C-bills than the brawlers.

There is really little to no incentive to scout for a PUG team at the moment.

This. A thousand times this.

I am not a selfish player. I call out enemy positions. I harass, I distract, I try to help the team win. But when I am trying to get the 21500 XP to level a Light Mech, and earning a paltry 150XP for 10 minutes of trying like crazy to help Heavies - all of whom will earn far more for simply shooting at targets - then I am rapidly getting to the point of just not bothering.

[Franchi]

Scout? Ain't got no scout, don't need no stinking scout!


Ive got a zero ton zero slot module for that.

[hammerreborn]

Jez, on 21 June 2013 - 01:27 AM, said:

Speaking of lack of incentives for scouts.

We don't get paid $$$ for identifying the # of hostiles, their directions, the mech types, who were the LRM/sniper boats, or if there was a strangler all by himself. Why? Because we did our job at +1000m away from the enemy where they couldn't tell who, what or where had eyes on them.

We don't get paid $$$ for sneaking into the enemy's backfield after the fight has been committed and jamming up their LRM boats, thereby denying the enemy their use of LRM support. I might not have killed those LRM mechs, but I sure as hell took them out of the fight.

We don't get paid $$$ for successfully pulling enemy mechs off the front lines because we either tagged their base or distracted them enough in their backfields.

We get paid less than then brawlers because during the fight we scouts wove our way through the brawl to pick off that enemy mech who had an exposed torso. Since we didn't do a lot of damage and we got the killing shot (you actually get paid less for killing the mech than for just "assisting" on the kill) we get less C-bills than the brawlers.

There is really little to no incentive to scout for a PUG team at the moment.

Not to mention when you factor in UAV costs you're looking at a 1/4 of the time barely breaking even in cbills.

Oh, and winning by cap gives you the same cbill gains as a loss....think on that.

[Mudhutwarrior]

Its blind to say there is no need for scouting. Its is the most essential part of any military operation. I tend to notice many of the hard core teams have no real idea of how it works for real. They have adapted to the game itself and forgotten basics. I dropped into a fourman all four legendarys and asked who is overwatch and they said whats overwatch. Jesus man.
Okay so i was formally trained in tactics and doctorine when I served but this is simple stuff to couch riding military buffs.

That being said the scout provides the most critical role to taking territory and thats what the principle of the game is. Second comes overwatch which is your best riflemen (snipers and missle boats) Every one else moves as the spear. Simple and effective. This is what the best teams employ in every match. Its a joy to watch even if your on the losing side of it. I hate lights as a rule but if I have one performing the role as should be I will gladly die defeding him. Nothing is more important than a good scout. They make or break matches. The game should reward scouting more than killing. Its a huge flaw.

[Vassago Rain]

Mudhutwarrior, on 21 June 2013 - 07:57 AM, said:

Its blind to say there is no need for scouting. Its is the most essential part of any military operation. I tend to notice many of the hard core teams have no real idea of how it works for real. They have adapted to the game itself and forgotten basics. I dropped into a fourman all four legendarys and asked who is overwatch and they said whats overwatch. Jesus man.
Okay so i was formally trained in tactics and doctorine when I served but this is simple stuff to couch riding military buffs.

That being said the scout provides the most critical role to taking territory and thats what the principle of the game is. Second comes overwatch which is your best riflemen (snipers and missle boats) Every one else moves as the spear. Simple and effective. This is what the best teams employ in every match. Its a joy to watch even if your on the losing side of it. I hate lights as a rule but if I have one performing the role as should be I will gladly die defeding him. Nothing is more important than a good scout. They make or break matches. The game should reward scouting more than killing. Its a huge flaw.

This game has tiny levels, and the big ones are made in such a way everybody always goes to the same ridge. There's no need for scouts.

[Disapirro]

I don't know that I agree with the general feeling that scouting is obsolete at the moment. I pug 100% and mostly in a spider 5d. I have a 1.35 win/loss ratio with it, above average to my overall 0.89 win/loss ratio. It is second only to my K2 at a 1.41 win ratio.

I believe this is directional evidence that scouting is important, since most games, that I do not run as a scout, there seems to be a lack of light mechs and scouting.

Some will probably say this is just because it is a mech that suits my play style, and yes that could be true, but I tend to lean more towards that if there is a scout playing the scout role, your odds of winning increase.

Additionally, the rewards do not seem bad either. My overall average in all mechs is $108,998 CB / match, and with this mech, with a win, I generally see $100,000 CB - $150,000 CB.

Edited by Disapirro, 21 June 2013 - 09:22 AM.

[Corbon Zackery]

FYI to everyone being a light pilot myself. Whenever we scout, and update you on enemy mech movement you ignore us.

Whenever we tag a mech for indirect LRM fire no missiles are ever shot at the target.

When we advance on a target no one supports us and were mass targeted by everyone even are own teammates.

So if you don't like how we scout the battlefield. I suggest you get out of that stuffy oversized atlas once, and a while and try scouting yourself see how long you last out there.

Thanks

[t9nv3]

Love my spider. Its my primary mech, and is responsable for ALL of my most memorable games. I'll offer my thoughts on the current impediments to scouting.

1. There is no way to send useful info via team chat. By the time I've typed something, the enemy has moved, and if I stop to type a detailed message I will die. I someimes recive snarky remarks when the enemy isn't exactly where I said they were 30 seconds ago..wish I could keep my team updated. We NEED a way to communicate this info verbally. How on earth am I supposed to let my team know where isolated and vulnerable mechs are located by mid game without getting myself killed.

2. Lights just have to keep moving, which makes it hard to maintain a tag over long distances, or keep an enemy targeted long enough for the info to be really useful to my team. I get a bit miffed when players are yelling at me to keep locks, when 9 times out of 10 doing so means keeping myself exposed. I get even more miffed when all the complaining comes from an LRM boat hiding in cover.

3. No one cares. Lets face it, a lot of PUG teams involve players just doing their own thing. You can sometimes pull off a win in spite of this lack of organization, but a lot of PUG teams are every man for himself.

[jakucha]

I don't think scouting will ever be the way people imagine it is in Battletech until we get a game with procedurally generated maps.

[Thomas Dziegielewski]

Once people start to figure out the awesomeness that is the UAV.

[Tolkien]

Thomas Dziegielewski, on 21 June 2013 - 09:49 AM, said:

Once people start to figure out the awesomeness that is the UAV.

Remind us, how much larger is the range of the UAV compared to the seismic sensors on the mechs you need to sneak up on?

[hammerreborn]

Thomas Dziegielewski, on 21 June 2013 - 09:49 AM, said:

Once people start to figure out the awesomeness that is the UAV.

Please give back my minimap icon so people realize there is a UAV up, because I totally realize how awesome it is?

You know what's worse than not having the minimap icon? Having to type in "uav up" because it's gone, then hitting enter, and then the game thinking the last p is a powerdown sequence, causing you to shutdown infront of the enemy team that you were previously trying to escape from, and then dying

Edited by hammerreborn, 21 June 2013 - 09:57 AM.

[AlmightyAeng]

Thomas Dziegielewski, on 21 June 2013 - 09:49 AM, said:

Once people start to figure out the awesomeness that is the UAV.

When did the STAFF Moderators become trolls?

Seriously, what the hell.

[hammerreborn]

Ghost Badger, on 21 June 2013 - 09:59 AM, said:

When did the STAFF Moderators become trolls?

Seriously, what the hell.

It's not a troll. Nothing is more amazing than the UAV for some LRM massive killing potential, or just enemy knowledge overall.

Seriously? The entire game revolves around blobs of assaults at this point, typically under at least one ECM. One UAV doesn't give a damn about any of that, and opens up every target to LRM fire.

The UAV is awesome wrapped in an awesome burrito shell stuffed with awesome bacon and then covered in gooey awesomesauce.

The only downside to the UAV is that it's TOO awesome, and most pugs have absolutely no clue how to handle having 8 targets available to them at once.

Edited by hammerreborn, 21 June 2013 - 10:02 AM.

[Corbon Zackery]

Thomas Dziegielewski, on 21 June 2013 - 09:49 AM, said:

Once people start to figure out the awesomeness that is the UAV.

Can I put a wad of explosives in the UAV. Pilot it from my base to the 100ton atlas, and fly it through the cockpit window killing the pilot.

If we can I would like a module that calls in a 4 man squad of VTOL's with gauss rifles they could scout, and kill mechs multi tasking in one module


Otherwise its a pretty thing I can shoot colorful lasers at.

See you later on when I get done with Star trek Online after all I pay $100 a year for that game.

Edited by Corbon Zackery, 21 June 2013 - 11:55 AM.

[DaZur]

Training Instructor, on 20 June 2013 - 01:54 PM, said:

Lights and mediums are mostly paralyzed by their fear of being crippled by one lucky, or skillful, alpha from some sniper.

So they hide behind the assault mechs for most of the match, forcing the assault to guess where the best place to push is.

It really doesn't help that every guide tells them to do exactly this, because of the threat of getting obliterated instantly for scouting.

It's leading to terrible matches for assaults.

IMHO... it's more the fear of being lambasted by their teammates for not "contributing" to to the fight and instead flitting around the map doing sub-100 damage.

There is a huge contingency of players who ostensibly refuse to remove the CoD goggles and see beyond the linear "DO MOAR DAMAGE" and cannot appreciate that sometimes a "good scout" might do little or no damage at all.