62 replies to this topic

[Victor Morson]

I am getting really annoyed reading complaint after complaint about symptoms of this larger problem that people are entirely ignoring as the cause. Simply put, until we have Weight Restrictions on matches so that Assault 'mechs are not the majority, you are going to die and die very rapidly no matter what 'mech you tank, in particular if you take a Frakenmech because there will always be a min/max meta in MechWarrior. Always.

Say we tear out Alpha Strikes entirely. Then we double that up by removing the PPC from the game entirely and also make it so every subsequent shot hurts your convergence.

The outcome? Your 45 ton "combat" frankenmech is going to get mauled by chainfired AC/20s, Gauss, and whatever other big heavy guns that they can jam on the 6+ assault 'mechs you're still trying to fight.

PGI had this dream to make all the classes equal in a game that, by it's nature, can't have that. Mediums will always be inferior at combat to heavies and assaults, with the only useful lights & mediums being maximum speed scouts & interceptors. You will never, ever have a medium that holds it's own with an assault if the pilots are of equal skill and the designs are remotely competent unless they are the majority on the field. If mediums outnumber heavies & assaults, their general mobility dictates the fight; the assaults merely have to react at this point.

So yeah. Next time you're about to scream about alpha strikes or heat, think to yourself would these things really be a problem if 60% of the force on the field were mediums or light heavies? Do you really have a problem with alphas from a Centurion, Hunchback or Dragon? Do they really need convergence reduced and alpha heat increased?

The crap 'mechs get impacted just as much as the top tier 'mechs do by this stuff, meaning the top tier 'mechs.. stay that way. You can't stop the meta, but you can change it by simply restricted games so assaults are the minority.

Or do you really think your Blackjack or Dragon is suddenly going to be a viable choice if Stalkers are forced to chain fire 10 times your firepower in your direction instead of alpha'ing it, while your convergence makes it so you can't even return fire with your dinky guns and the alpha heat penalties are cooking you from the inside out?

In other words, all of these "fixes" fix nothing until we minimize the number of assaults on the field, period.

Edited by Victor Morson, 20 June 2013 - 07:09 PM.

[Sybreed]

like I said in another thread: everyone picking an assault is a symptom of the convergence/high alpha issue. People pick assaults because a) they deal more damage and b ) they survive longer against said increased damage.

Yes, tonnage limits are needed, but it's around 33.333% of the issue right now, the other 2/3 are convergence and the obligatory boating.

In other words, fixing tonnage limits won't fix the game, but it'll improve. It still shouldn't happen that a stalker can 1-shot a blackjack and you know it's true so stop pretending your solution will fix everything.

[Victor Morson]

Sybreed, on 20 June 2013 - 07:14 PM, said:

like I said in another thread: everyone picking an assault is a symptom of the convergence/high alpha issue. People pick assaults because a) they deal more damage and b ) they survive longer against said increased damage.

No it's not. At all.

In a world without alphas if you come at me with a 50 tonner with 10 tons of guns while I'm in assault with 40 tons of guns, the fight still is not going to go well. I might not be able 1-shot a Blackjack, but I will still kill you 95% faster than you could kill me.

Unless you think a Dragon pilot firing a couple shaky, poorly coordinated shots from a gauss and a couple Large Lasers is going to really do much against an assault that's still pouring PPCs and Gauss on chainfire back at them.

All you are doing is taking the exact situation we have now, and putting it in slow motion. Nothing more.

Edited by Victor Morson, 20 June 2013 - 07:20 PM.

[Pater Mors]

Disagree entirely. It's perfectly possible to make all Mech's viable, even against min/maxers. Hell, I only run frankenmech's and I still do fine, even in mediums. You're perspective of combat only takes into account a full on frontal attack. Of course a medium is going to be inferior in that situation.

I agree that we do need a better matchmaking system, but it's not the core problem of this game.

[Victor Morson]

Pater Mors, on 20 June 2013 - 07:19 PM, said:

Disagree entirely. It's perfectly possible to make all Mech's viable, even against min/maxers. Hell, I only run frankenmech's and I still do fine, even in mediums.

WARNING. WARNING. Very low ELO detetected.
-
Poster jadedness levels have not yet reached critical mass. Likely cause: Poster is still playing against newbies in light armor.

EDIT: ELO - Making inexperienced players in terrible builds think that it's OK since March, 2013.

Edited by Victor Morson, 20 June 2013 - 07:23 PM.

[Pater Mors]

Victor Morson, on 20 June 2013 - 07:21 PM, said:

WARNING. WARNING. Very low ELO detetected.
-
Poster jadedness levels have not yet reached critical mass. Likely cause: Poster is still playing against newbies in light armor.

Or... you know... I actually know how to play the game without charging head first into battle like a blood soaked Nordic berserker.

[Victor Morson]

Pater Mors, on 20 June 2013 - 07:23 PM, said:

Or... you know... I actually know how to play the game without charging head first into battle like a blood soaked Nordic berserker.

OK, in all seriousness..

If you drive Frankenmechs any even moderately competent organized player will kill you in a 1:1 tonnage battle without even taking much damage right now. It's just the way it is, and if you're seeing a different story, you are fighting against people in a very low ELO bracket.

You can't make "any build work." Not really. This is only the case if you are fighting people of a similar mindset, and you will never move out of said ELO bracket unless you change up to use effective guns.

Also, no matter what "angle of approach" you take, you're not cracking an Assault lance or extended lance. It just won't happen, man. Mediums are only good for stopping caps (and they have to be VERY fast) or starting them in a no tonnage environment, and that's where it stops.

Your entire concept of being able to isolate and deal with assaults means you are fighting terrible players. Assaults should be close to each other, and thus, giving you no way to do anything but get torn apart from multiple directions.

Basically nothing of what you said resembles how the game plays out in general, even a little bit, at even slightly higher levels.

Edited by Victor Morson, 20 June 2013 - 07:28 PM.

[FupDup]

@ both of you guys, the following is the food chain of MWO:

Bad player in a bad mech < Bad player in a good mech < Good player in a bad mech < Good player in a good mech


It's a tad bit oversimplified (there are also average players and average mechs) but you get the idea.

Edited by FupDup, 20 June 2013 - 07:28 PM.

[AntiCitizenJuan]

I really wish PGI would just let us have our Elo level visible. Or at least make it optional. Jesus.

[Victor Morson]

AntiCitizenJuan, on 20 June 2013 - 07:27 PM, said:

I really wish PGI would just let us have our Elo level visible. Or at least make it optional. Jesus.

Me too. Low ELO anecdotes are what clouds a LOT of conversation on these forums, because to a low ELO player they're doing fine with their terrible 'mechs, not realizing they're only seeing a small % of the overall game population.

EDIT: Every time someone posts a score screen to prove why (x terrible thing) is good, I want to cry. Congratulations, you beat up some unorganized PUGs in a lower bracket. Your point is proven!

Edited by Victor Morson, 20 June 2013 - 07:30 PM.

[Pater Mors]

Victor Morson, on 20 June 2013 - 07:25 PM, said:

OK, in all seriousness..

If you drive Frankenmechs any even moderately competent organized player will kill you in a 1:1 tonnage battle without even taking much damage right now. It's just the way it is, and if you're seeing a different story, you are fighting against people in a very low ELO bracket.

You can't make "any build work." Not really. This is only the case if you are fighting people of a similar mindset, and you will never move out of said ELO bracket unless you change up to use effective guns.

You're making the same assumptions as the OP. In a 1:1 fight with a tonnage disparity, I am not going to charge head first at my opponent and get killed like an *****. I am going to fight smart. If I am such low Elo, then you must be at a similar level as I have seen you in game before.

I can make any reasonable build work. The Spider 5D thread proves that you can't make 'any' build work without some serious luck, but give me a reasonable build and I will make you feel a lot of pain.

[Victor Morson]

Pater Mors, on 20 June 2013 - 07:29 PM, said:

I am going to fight smart.

If you're driving a medium Frankenmech, you lost that battle before it started.

EDIT: Also if you login at really late hours you get some pretty cross-ELO games because of player shortages and some of those builds are just depressing.

Edited by Victor Morson, 20 June 2013 - 07:33 PM.

[Sybreed]

AntiCitizenJuan, on 20 June 2013 - 07:27 PM, said:

I really wish PGI would just let us have our Elo level visible. Or at least make it optional. Jesus.

no, this would turn this forum into a mix of SC2 forums and LoL forums where top elo are elitists jerks who can't be questionned about their superior skills and knowledge of the game. We really don't need that here.

[Pater Mors]

Victor Morson, on 20 June 2013 - 07:31 PM, said:

If you're driving a medium Frankenmech, you lost that battle before it started.

Says you. You have quite a few good ideas on these forums. I tend to read them all. However, the worst of them is your consistent insistence that only the 'elite' are worthy of speculation about this game and their opinions are the only ones to be considered.

Your black and white opinions on the matter of tonnage disparity in combat are incorrect. You might be right that there are too many big mechs stomping around and too many min/max builds, but if you can't deal with it without resorting to min/maxing yourself then you're just not a very good pilot.

Edited by Pater Mors, 20 June 2013 - 07:35 PM.

[Victor Morson]

Sybreed, on 20 June 2013 - 07:34 PM, said:

no, this would turn this forum into a mix of SC2 forums and LoL forums where top elo are elitists jerks who can't be questionned about their superior skills and knowledge of the game. We really don't need that here.

To be fair I'd rather have anyone in Bronze & Silver's league opinion thrown straight into the trash for balancing that game and I don't even play SC2. Likely Gold could go in there too.

Like every game, there's a ton of really awful, dumb ideas that are reactionary at the bottom. The people at the bottom are greatly benefited by the best of the best offering their input on balance first.

[AntiCitizenJuan]

Sybreed, on 20 June 2013 - 07:34 PM, said:

no, this would turn this forum into a mix of SC2 forums and LoL forums where top elo are elitists jerks who can't be questionned about their superior skills and knowledge of the game. We really don't need that here.

Well in the same regard, LoL and SC2 are balanced at the highest level of skill. As in the pros test the game for the developers so the game can be tweaked for the highest skill ceiling.

We at least need to have that happen, whether Elo is on the forums or not.

[Victor Morson]

Pater Mors, on 20 June 2013 - 07:34 PM, said:

Says you. You have quite a few good ideas on these forums. I tend to read them all. However, the worst of them is your consistent insistence that only the 'elite' are worthy of speculation about this game and their opinions are the only ones to be considered.

I would be happy to arrange a series of duels with any of my best people and you on the condition that I we can record it and post it in any thread we wish after; of course you are welcome to do the same. It won't be pretty, at all. It won't say anything about you as a pilot, because like I said, if you're going into the game with this mindset you've already lost before you even get a target lock.

We've taken on more than a few pilots with your mindset, got them to run proper builds, and their damage effectively skyrockets 3x or more.

Pater Mors, on 20 June 2013 - 07:34 PM, said:

Your black and white opinions on the matter of tonnage disparity in combat are incorrect. You might be right that there are too many big mechs stomping around and too many min/max builds, but if you can't deal with it without resorting to min/maxing yourself then you're just not a very good pilot.

A min/max pilot of equal skill will always obliterate a sub-optimal, let alone Fraken, build pilot of equal skill in a one on one fight. A team running min/max builds will always beat a team with sub-optimal builds, and will always outright embarrass a team with Franken builds.

There is just no getting around it.

EDIT: PM me if your interested. We could make it best of 5 or something so I could send multiple pilots, just to take that out of the way. I'd trust every one of my guys to obliterate a frakenbuild with even a more experienced pilot in it.

Edited by Victor Morson, 20 June 2013 - 07:41 PM.

[Sybreed]

AntiCitizenJuan, on 20 June 2013 - 07:37 PM, said:

Well in the same regard, LoL and SC2 are balanced at the highest level of skill. As in the pros test the game for the developers so the game can be tweaked for the highest skill ceiling.

We at least need to have that happen, whether Elo is on the forums or not.

there are no skills in this game, it's simply point and shoot. Hell, it's harder to aim in a game like CoD than MWO. I would hardly think anyone is more skilled than me in a similar mech and loadout.

[AntiCitizenJuan]

Sybreed, on 20 June 2013 - 07:41 PM, said:

I would hardly think anyone is more skilled than me in a similar mech and loadout.

Hence, the need for viewable Elo

[Otto Cannon]

Victor Morson, on 20 June 2013 - 07:18 PM, said:

In a world without alphas if you come at me with a 50 tonner with 10 tons of guns while I'm in assault with 40 tons of guns, the fight still is not going to go well. I might not be able 1-shot a Blackjack, but I will still kill you 95% faster than you could kill me.

Unless you think a Dragon pilot firing a couple shaky, poorly coordinated shots from a gauss and a couple Large Lasers is going to really do much against an assault that's still pouring PPCs and Gauss on chainfire back at them.

All you are doing is taking the exact situation we have now, and putting it in slow motion. Nothing more.

I don't think that's a fair or realistic portrayal at all. What about a Dragon firing well aimed shots at vital locations and running rings around an assault who tries to respond with 'shaky, poorly coordinated' chainfire? You're trying to bias your description by bringing in pilot skill that has nothing whatsoever to do with the issue you're discussing.

Changing convergence mechanics to allow less pinpoint groupfire would at least help slightly to encourage chainfire type play if you want to hit the same location with all your shots. The difference would be that you'd need more skill to land them all on one place repeatedly instead of doing it in one shot.

If mechs fired single weapons or small groups as in your example it would reduce greatly the difference in firepower between assault and lighter mechs- if you can't fire all your guns at once then the main advantage of an assault would become the variety of weapons they can carry so they could fight at different ranges instead of needing to specialise as short or long range.