85 replies to this topic

[Kraven Kor]

senaiboy, on 24 June 2013 - 01:23 AM, said:

I meant when you are firing back at the enemy, part of your CT will still be exposed because arms can't aim 90 degrees horizontally. The whole time you are torso twisted away from the enemy you're not really doing anything but soaking damage.

It wasn't PPC that killed him, but he said PPC dealt the most damage - the death screen does not give any further details so you just have to give him the benefit of the doubt, he was the one who got killed. In fact, you shouldn't think everyone doesn't know how to play (or torso twist). Most of us have been here long enough.

Fire > Twist / Cover > Fire > Twist / Cover

No matter what they do, no matter how many nerfs happen to weapons, there will be times where you walk out in front of a few skilled players and get most - if not all - of a torso section blown off in one shot.

But the good advice given is sill good advice.

Fire your weapons, then twist and dance and juke to avoid or spread incoming fire, rinse, repeat.

And believe me, there are times where I forget this and pay the price. There are times I hyper-focus trying for that last alpha to get a kill, and pay the price.

To an extent, that is all just part of the game.

[BillyM]

Kraven Kor, on 24 June 2013 - 08:07 AM, said:

Fire > Twist / Cover > Fire > Twist / Cover

No matter what they do, no matter how many nerfs happen to weapons, there will be times where you walk out in front of a few skilled players and get most - if not all - of a torso section blown off in one shot.

But the good advice given is sill good advice.

Fire your weapons, then twist and dance and juke to avoid or spread incoming fire, rinse, repeat.

And believe me, there are times where I forget this and pay the price. There are times I hyper-focus trying for that last alpha to get a kill, and pay the price.

To an extent, that is all just part of the game.

"just fire and turn"

1sec fire duration what?

...oh, you assumed we were all running PPC/Gauss/AC20's as well?

--billyM

Edited by BillyM, 24 June 2013 - 08:16 AM.

[Kraven Kor]

BillyM, on 24 June 2013 - 08:16 AM, said:

"just fire and turn"

1sec fire duration what?

...oh, you assumed we were all running PPC/Gauss/AC20's as well?

--billyM

Nope.

I run Large Lasers and AC/5 or UAC/5 more often than PPC or Gauss.

I can get off a full LL blast and then twist before your average PPC boat can line up a return shot. It's the ones I don't see that give me more trouble, naturally.

Still do more or less OK.

But keep throwing words back at those who are trying to offer good advice.

[tenderloving]

Kraven Kor, on 24 June 2013 - 08:23 AM, said:

Nope.

I run Large Lasers and AC/5 or UAC/5 more often than PPC or Gauss.

I can get off a full LL blast and then twist before your average PPC boat can line up a return shot. It's the ones I don't see that give me more trouble, naturally.

Still do more or less OK.

But keep throwing words back at those who are trying to offer good advice.

Your "average PPC boat" takes over 1 second to line up a shot on you? I want to know how to get such stupid opponents in my games.

This is the problem I have with all of the "advice" being given to OP. Opponents aren't stupid. They know what you are going to try to do. All they have to do is be patient. If you are using DPS weapons and they are using Pin-point alpha- and you are of equal skill levels- they will win EVERY time.

I'm still waiting for someone to explain how you can be effective without presenting your front to your opponent for any length of time. I'm talking about an opponent who is as good as you who knows what you are trying to do.

TENDERLOVING'S CHALLENGE: Imagine that your opponent is your evil twin. He knows what you want to do. He is in a PPC Stalker and you are in whatever build you think is comparable. Someone please give me an example of how you can beat your evil twin in a manner that doesn't require you to 1. be better than him, or 2. do a lot more work than him.

Edited by tenderloving, 24 June 2013 - 09:09 AM.

[Tezcatli]

This is especially prevalent in a slow mech. On my Cataphract generally I get cored. On my Trebuchet with an XL running 106kphs, not as much, still happens though.

[Kraven Kor]

tenderloving, on 24 June 2013 - 08:38 AM, said:

Your "average PPC boat" takes over 1 second to line up a shot on you? I want to know how to get such stupid opponents in my games.

This is the problem I have with all of the "advice" being given to OP. Opponents aren't stupid. They know what you are going to try to do. All they have to do is be patient. If you are using DPS weapons and they are using Pin-point alpha- and you are of equal skill levels- they will win EVERY time.

I'm still waiting for someone to explain how you can be effective without presenting your front to your opponent for any length of time. I'm talking about an opponent who is as good as you who knows what you are trying to do.

TENDERLOVING'S CHALLENGE: Imagine that your opponent is your evil twin. He knows what you want to do. He is in a PPC Stalker and you are in whatever build you think is comparable. Someone please give me an example of how you can beat your evil twin in a manner that doesn't require you to 1. be better than him, or 2. do a lot more work than him.

I poke a ridge, just enough to let him see me, and move right as he lines up his shot. His shot misses, or hits the rock I had been partially behind.

I then move out of cover and fire while his weapons cycle.

And yes, I do this in game, and it works.

It is a lot of fun to watch 60 point alpha's sail by me or hit turf.

Not so much fun when it fails to work

Better still? I shoot them while they shoot at a teammate

[hammerreborn]

tenderloving, on 24 June 2013 - 08:38 AM, said:

Your "average PPC boat" takes over 1 second to line up a shot on you? I want to know how to get such stupid opponents in my games.

This is the problem I have with all of the "advice" being given to OP. Opponents aren't stupid. They know what you are going to try to do. All they have to do is be patient. If you are using DPS weapons and they are using Pin-point alpha- and you are of equal skill levels- they will win EVERY time.

I'm still waiting for someone to explain how you can be effective without presenting your front to your opponent for any length of time. I'm talking about an opponent who is as good as you who knows what you are trying to do.

TENDERLOVING'S CHALLENGE: Imagine that your opponent is your evil twin. He knows what you want to do. He is in a PPC Stalker and you are in whatever build you think is comparable. Someone please give me an example of how you can beat your evil twin in a manner that doesn't require you to 1. be better than him, or 2. do a lot more work than him.

I know I know!

I capture his base in my Jenner.

[Cervantes88]

This game needs shoulder-mounted and rear-mounted weapons + targetting systems.



I want a small castle filled with lazors on top of my atlas so I can shoot the darn PPC boats while protecting my CT with me arms !

[tenderloving]

Kraven Kor, on 24 June 2013 - 09:11 AM, said:

I poke a ridge, just enough to let him see me, and move right as he lines up his shot. His shot misses, or hits the rock I had been partially behind.

I then move out of cover and fire while his weapons cycle.

And yes, I do this in game, and it works.

It is a lot of fun to watch 60 point alpha's sail by me or hit turf.

Not so much fun when it fails to work

Better still? I shoot them while they shoot at a teammate

What were the two parts of my challenge?

1. You can't be better than your evil twin.

In your scenario, your evil twin misses you, despite knowing that you would pull your peekabo manouver. Then, he stands idly by while you unload your damage over time setup. Why wouldn't your evil twin back down his hill after he misses? Why isn't he taking advantage of cover himself? Shouldn't he be in cover as well since he is just as smart as you and thinks like you? He only needs a split second to hit you, while you have to drag your lasers over him. Surely he can find cover.


2. You can't do more work than him.
In your scenario, you popped up and popped down, dodged a shot, and fired. All he did was fire and miss.
You still don't get it. Your opponent is supposed to be equal in skill to you, but you still rely on him making mistakes in order for the scenario to play out the way you want it. It's incredible that your evil twin is still incompetent, and you carry out your plan flawlessly.


CHALLENGE FAILED.

Edited by tenderloving, 24 June 2013 - 09:37 AM.

[Kraven Kor]

tenderloving, on 24 June 2013 - 09:30 AM, said:

What were the two parts of my challenge?

1. You can't be better than your evil twin.

In your scenario, your evil twin misses you, despite knowing that you would pull your peekabo manouver. Then, he stands idly by while you unload your damage over time setup. Why wouldn't your evil twin back down his hill after he misses? Why isn't he taking advantage of cover himself? Shouldn't he be in cover as well since he is just as smart as you and thinks like you? He only needs a split second to hit you, while you have to drag your lasers over him. Surely he can find cover.


2. You can't do more work than him.
In your scenario, you popped up and popped down, dodged a shot, and fired. All he did was fire and miss.
You still don't get it. Your opponent is supposed to be equal in skill to you, but you still rely on him making mistakes in order for the scenario to play out the way you want it. It's incredible that your evil twin is still incompetent, and you carry out your plan flawlessly.


CHALLENGE FAILED.

Anything anyone suggests to you would fail.

What I just described does not fail me about 50% of the time.

[tenderloving]

Kraven Kor, on 24 June 2013 - 09:46 AM, said:

Anything anyone suggests to you would fail.

What I just described does not fail me about 50% of the time.

It wouldn't fail if you meet the criteria. Do you honestly believe you met the criteria and gave your evil twin opponent a fair shake in that scenario?

You've described a system that requires you to be more clever than your opponent, aim better than him, do more work than him, and relies on him standing still for at least 1 second at a time between shots. Oh yeah, it only works about 50% of the time. Sounds balanced to me!

Edited by tenderloving, 24 June 2013 - 09:58 AM.

[Kraven Kor]

tenderloving, on 24 June 2013 - 09:54 AM, said:

It wouldn't fail if you meet the criteria. Do you honestly believe you met the criteria and gave your evil twin opponent a fair shake in that scenario?

Do you honestly believe your criteria disprove that this is still good advice that gets constantly ignored and rejected to the detriment of the person rejecting it?

Everything you say is correct, but still does not prove that torso twist and cover does not help vs. PPC's and Gauss. It does, they do, I use them, it works. But any advice I / we give, is rejected or some other scenario or excuse is brought up by those rejecting as YET ANOTHER REASON IT WON'T WORK.

Make yourself a hard target, and you live longer, any way you slice it.

[Coolant]

excellent screenshot and perfect example to give. DPS weapons are no longer useful. You have to be able to fire at a target for a couple of seconds to do any real damage with DPS weapons. Many pilots now equip long range high damage weapons and disappear before you can get off more than 1 shot. You cannot compete. A brawler build is tough to get in range because of the way radar works and Seismic. In Mercs you could sneak up on a sniper using Passive (only be detected on radar within 250m unless they had BAP). Either put in Passive or penalize Energy weapon boating.

[PropagandaWar]

hammerreborn, on 21 June 2013 - 03:05 PM, said:

You know whats worse than that picture? This one

LMAO you were nuked. Looking in chat some of those guys are mine. DemoMaster (seeing the "im gonna kill you" on there leads me to believe I was in that game lol) and Den are good fun legit players. One guy on that screen who I cant slam because of COD I'm convinced uses every in game exploit and runs out of bounds if the game doesn't suit him probably alphad you with a 6erppc stalker. To the OP though you were 7th to die in a highlander and did only 197 points of damage leads me to believe you stayed back while your team was mauled (See this a lot) Leave base protecting to smaller units that can chase off that spider. And that you were focus fired on.

[hammerreborn]

PropagandaWar, on 24 June 2013 - 10:51 AM, said:

LMAO you were nuked. Looking in chat some of those guys are mine. DemoMaster (seeing the "im gonna kill you" on there leads me to believe I was in that game lol) and Den are good fun legit players. One guy on that screen who I cant slam because of COD I'm convinced uses every in game exploit and runs out of bounds if the game doesn't suit him probably alphad you with a 6erppc stalker. To the OP though you were 7th to die in a highlander and did only 197 points of damage leads me to believe you stayed back while your team was mauled (See this a lot) Leave base protecting to smaller units that can chase off that spider. And that you were focus fired on.

This death was in the hayday of LRMmaggedon v3.0 I believe, when splash damage would turn anything lighter than a centrion into mush. All LRM damage, no ppcs.

tenderloving, on 24 June 2013 - 09:30 AM, said:

What were the two parts of my challenge?

1. You can't be better than your evil twin.

In your scenario, your evil twin misses you, despite knowing that you would pull your peekabo manouver. Then, he stands idly by while you unload your damage over time setup. Why wouldn't your evil twin back down his hill after he misses? Why isn't he taking advantage of cover himself? Shouldn't he be in cover as well since he is just as smart as you and thinks like you? He only needs a split second to hit you, while you have to drag your lasers over him. Surely he can find cover.


2. You can't do more work than him.
In your scenario, you popped up and popped down, dodged a shot, and fired. All he did was fire and miss.
You still don't get it. Your opponent is supposed to be equal in skill to you, but you still rely on him making mistakes in order for the scenario to play out the way you want it. It's incredible that your evil twin is still incompetent, and you carry out your plan flawlessly.


CHALLENGE FAILED.

What about mine?

[PropagandaWar]

hammerreborn, on 24 June 2013 - 10:58 AM, said:

This death was in the hayday of LRMmaggedon v3.0 I believe, when splash damage would turn anything lighter than a centrion into mush. All LRM damage, no ppcs.

Not me then. I have a lrm guy but he packs 2 lrm 15s and 2 large lasers. I only bring him out once in a while. Call him the Green Meanie with a littl Phracken Green on Green paint violence. Yeah my guys dont lerm either. Demomasters actually only one of my Crows from Cored in that little chat, he's fun to run with.

[Psychokreep]

XL engine? nuf said

[ExtremeA79]

Sybreed, on 21 June 2013 - 01:49 PM, said:

hmm see those 2 kill assists? Those were the only 2 kills that our team did. We got steamrolled. I wasn't even badly positionned, all my teammates died (I was the 7th one to die) and was left alone against stalkers (don't pay attention to those LRMs in the screen, PPCs did all the damage)

Ok based from this, you were simply outmatched. They had a better team, better coordination. Blame ELO.

[BlackWidow]

I hate to add wild speculation to anything, but I have noticed this as well over the past few days.

Tell me to torso twist? *******. I torso twist like a fiend. And I know when I'm getting cored for being stupid. Know how? Cause I was being stupid.

But, most recently my guildies, as well as I, have noticed a lot of "coring" with nigh else being touched.

What does this spark? Conversations of AIMBOTS.

I'm not trying to spread rumors, but when we get a LOT of head and CT cores with little damage elsewhere....it's hard not to be suspicious without being about to disprove it.

And this is only against certain teams. I have screen shots and have sent to PGI.

[Sybreed]

BlackWidow, on 24 June 2013 - 12:56 PM, said:

I hate to add wild speculation to anything, but I have noticed this as well over the past few days.

Tell me to torso twist? *******. I torso twist like a fiend. And I know when I'm getting cored for being stupid. Know how? Cause I was being stupid.

But, most recently my guildies, as well as I, have noticed a lot of "coring" with nigh else being touched.

What does this spark? Conversations of AIMBOTS.

I'm not trying to spread rumors, but when we get a LOT of head and CT cores with little damage elsewhere....it's hard not to be suspicious without being about to disprove it.

And this is only against certain teams. I have screen shots and have sent to PGI.

hmm I didn't even think of that. The yellow armor was due to LRMs hitting me. A few seconds before that, all armor was intact except the CT which was dark orange already. One of the PPCs salvos came from literally nowhere. I got hit and thought "where the hell did that come from!?" cause I did not see any stalker around. Could be aimbots that played against us.

Edited by Sybreed, 24 June 2013 - 02:45 PM.