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Bought A Stalker. Worse Than I Expected.


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#41 Keifomofutu

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 07:06 PM

View PostTechnoviking, on 22 June 2013 - 05:57 PM, said:

Stalkers turn like cadillacs in the mud and are gigantic targets.

The plus side? Gigantic nose full of weapons. Seems fair.


They turn just as well as any other assault going 60km/h and are the smallest assault. They have the same profile as the 65 ton catapult without the downside of being one massive CT. The mech is a balancing joke.

Edited by Keifomofutu, 22 June 2013 - 07:07 PM.


#42 Ralgas

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 07:15 PM

View PostFupDup, on 22 June 2013 - 04:43 PM, said:

Actually, the Stalker in general is just too damn good at boating in general (I'm not hating against boating in general, I'm just making a point about the STK specifically). The Stalker has been top tier in every meta there has ever been: the SRM meta, the various Lurmageddons, and now the PPC war.

Its small body, high-mounted weapons, large number of hardpoints, and extremely huge side torso hitboxes all stack artificial advantages in its favor.


If the laser and missile hardpoints were to be swapped on the arms (lasers firing from the bottom of the hitbox) and the ct hitbox being widened a little at the front it might go a ways towards toning them down. The loss of ppc's will only lead to a rise in Llas/erllas combos, which are almost as much dmg, more heat efficient and lighter........

#43 LordBraxton

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 07:34 PM

View PostKeifomofutu, on 22 June 2013 - 07:06 PM, said:


They turn just as well as any other assault going 60km/h and are the smallest assault. They have the same profile as the 65 ton catapult without the downside of being one massive CT. The mech is a balancing joke.


this

my stalker is the only mech I own

that can FORCE the enemy

to tunnel through both side torso armor sections (if you are good they wont even finish killing that side, just keep spreading the damage from one side of the nose to the other)

before coring CT

the barndoor side torsos are a perk, more than a drawback

Edited by LordBraxton, 22 June 2013 - 07:35 PM.


#44 FupDup

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 07:41 PM

View PostRalgas, on 22 June 2013 - 07:15 PM, said:


If the laser and missile hardpoints were to be swapped on the arms (lasers firing from the bottom of the hitbox) and the ct hitbox being widened a little at the front it might go a ways towards toning them down. The loss of ppc's will only lead to a rise in Llas/erllas combos, which are almost as much dmg, more heat efficient and lighter........

LL and ERLL spread out their damage (over multiple body parts) due to their DoT nature, though, so it wouldn't be nearly as traumatic as 4 ERPPC. It also requires the Stalker to expose itself for longer periods of time.

#45 Nauht

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 07:45 PM

View PostStoicblitzer, on 22 June 2013 - 05:22 PM, said:

sounds like you're mad because, like us, you are posting on the mwo forums at 9:30pm on a saturday night.

there seems to be 3 related issues here. stalker itself, boating, pinpoint damage all combining to produce a perfect storm of problems.

Another person that understands the issues. Yes its the combo of all those NOT the ppc itself

Like I've been sayng, nerf the ppc and it just has a detrimental effect on every mech that doesnt BOAT. See I capitalised it just to be clear what the issue is, not just with the stalker.

Again I'll say where are the complaints about ppc lights, or even one ppc heavies/ assaults.

The issues are: hardpoint system (or lack thereof) that allows boating and pinpoint accuracy.

#46 Nauht

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 07:52 PM

Look what nerfing one weapon system does - missiles.

Everyone hated the splatcat and awesome srm boats. They all complained about a 90 point alpha so PGI nerfed SRMs to the point they've made mediums irrelevant. Everyone hated LRM boats so they've been "tweaking" LRMs since day 1. The roll on effect is that hardly any mediums fielded LRMs. It's only now that some brave meds will field double LRMs but its still the boats that cause the most cries.

#47 Rahnu

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 08:39 PM

View PostBiglead, on 22 June 2013 - 04:51 PM, said:

Oh by the way, what were the other successful AAA rated games you developed again?

I just want to point out that credentials are completely unimportant when it comes to the validity of an idea. This is a very common logical fallacy.

It honestly weirds me out that it's still as common as it is, considering it's one of the most basic fallacies you can ever possibly learn, and one of the easiest to point out (think about how many posters on this forum you would have to ignore if you used that criteria - in fact, I imagine only a single-digit number of posters besides the devs would qualify under that criteria).

Edited by Zyrusticae, 22 June 2013 - 08:46 PM.


#48 AntiCitizenJuan

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 08:41 PM

The 3F is the easiest, most braindead mech in the game. Sounds like it was user error.

#49 Caladan Nix

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 08:53 PM

The best balance idea would be a mix of what they're doing now and also deferring to canon and/or individual mech quirks.

For example, Awesome's should have a reduced if not no penalty for firing 3 PPC's at once because it's the point of the standard and 9M models.

#50 hammerreborn

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 08:54 PM

View PostNauht, on 22 June 2013 - 07:52 PM, said:

Look what nerfing one weapon system does - missiles.

Everyone hated the splatcat and awesome srm boats. They all complained about a 90 point alpha so PGI nerfed SRMs to the point they've made mediums irrelevant. Everyone hated LRM boats so they've been "tweaking" LRMs since day 1. The roll on effect is that hardly any mediums fielded LRMs. It's only now that some brave meds will field double LRMs but its still the boats that cause the most cries.


No, SRMs were nerfed because instead of doing a 90 point alpha, it was doing 150+ damage due to the splash damage.

For picture illustration, here is why missiles in general were broken...
Posted Image

#51 Keifomofutu

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 09:25 PM

View PostAntiCitizenJuan, on 22 June 2013 - 08:41 PM, said:

The 3F is the easiest, most braindead mech in the game. Sounds like it was user error.


When he says bad he means bad as in bad for balance level of easymode. Not bad as in underpowered.

#52 Aylek

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 11:21 PM

PPCs are the single best weapon in the game. Period.

There are several reasons for this which are all well known, but I want to iterate on this point again. Additionally, I hate 1-liners in forums. :P

Compare PPC's in short to the other 'big' energy weapons available (won't look at ballistics here.):

- PPC: 10 damage / 8 heat (=1.25 damage per heat generated), Cooldown 4.0 (dps = 2.5, hps = 2.0), 540m / 1080m range, 7 tons / 3 criticals, pinpoint damage; bonus: highest bullet speed available (next to AC2)

- ER PPC: 10 damage / 11 heat (0.90 dph), CD 4.0 (dps = 2.5, hps = 2.75), 810m / 1620m range, 7t / 3cr, pinpoint damage + highest bullet speed

- LL: 9 damage / 7 heat (1.28 dph), CD 3.25 (dps = 2.8, hps = 2.15), 450 / 900 range, 5t / 2cr, 1s beam, therefore damage spread likely

- ER LL: 9 damage / 9.5 heat (0.95 dph), CD 3,25 (dps = 2.8, hps = 2.9), 675 / 1350 range, 5t / 2cr, 1s beam, therefore damage spread likely

- LPL: 10.6 damage / 8.5 heat (1.24 dph), CD 3.25 (dps = 3.3, hps = 2.6), 300 / 600 range, 7t / 2cr, 0.75s beam, pulses = more pinpoint

ER Large are definitely out. The extended range isn't needed even on the bigger maps sans maybe Alpine because the range advantage can be easily neutered on the maps by using cover and intelligent movement.

In comparison to both the LL and the LPL there are small advantages in some points for the one or other laser, but the PPC in it's current state simply offers the best and most rounded package... the most bang for the buck if you want to say so. All of the variables looked at above could be altered to tune them a bit.

- Why on earth do they still only generate 8 (11) heat now that HSR is implemented? +1 heat on each of the two variants would already change a lot. Remember, their heat was their main balancing factor in TT of old.
- I am fine with a linearly lowered damage beyond the optimum range. But why isn't the minimum range considered a given, so that PPCs can even be used for limited close range defense?

Edited by Aylek, 22 June 2013 - 11:23 PM.


#53 MustrumRidcully

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 02:56 AM

View PostNauht, on 22 June 2013 - 04:47 PM, said:

Yes, uou understand the problem. Boating and hardpoints is the issue.

People calling for weapon nerfs fail to understand there are lots of smaller mechs that rely on hat weapon as well - or they fail to see the real issues.

Who agrees the ppc on a hunchback is op, or a spider?


I ask you this question:

Do you want this game to be able to take any mech from the table top and make it work?

If yes, you have to live with the fact that there are table top mechs that all use the "problematic" boating loadouts we currently "enjoy" in MW:O. They are not in the game right now, but they might be interesting to add later. If you trust hard points to do this job for you, you will likely end up being disappointed if PGI adds the wrong mech to the game.

You are also making it more likely that some mechs wil be considered underpowered due to poor hard points, and others are deemed superior. And just think of how restrictive the build options will actually be for some mechs. If you cannot upgrade a weapon to a bigger, heavier weapons, what variation options do you really have left? You can downgrade something, but what do you do with the spare weight and space? Let it sit empty?

And heck, there are even weapons that could be a problem in the future. Ever heard of "Light PPCs"? They are basically the PPC equivalent of a Medium Laser in weight and size. We can boat Medium Lasers right now, we will be able to boat Light PPC. You now the difference between boating MLs and boating PPCs? Medium Lasers fire a beam, PPCs fire a single projectile. Despite convergence, the MLs will probably spread their damage, the (Light) PPCs won't.

#54 MustrumRidcully

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 03:02 AM

View PostZyrusticae, on 22 June 2013 - 08:39 PM, said:

I just want to point out that credentials are completely unimportant when it comes to the validity of an idea. This is a very common logical fallacy.

It honestly weirds me out that it's still as common as it is, considering it's one of the most basic fallacies you can ever possibly learn, and one of the easiest to point out (think about how many posters on this forum you would have to ignore if you used that criteria - in fact, I imagine only a single-digit number of posters besides the devs would qualify under that criteria).

The devs don't qualify either. Name a successful AAA rated game PGI has developed so far.

They might be developing one right now, but it could also turn out to be a unsuccesful B rated game... I hope they get a bit closer to successul and AAA rated, but I am certainly not taking any bets on that.

#55 Felbombling

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 06:06 AM

You love your dog... it is a part of the family and shows you unconditional love in return. If it spends ten minutes chasing its own tail in the back yard, sooner or later you begin to suspect it is totally stupid.

#56 I3lackI2ogue

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 06:18 AM

View PostZyrusticae, on 22 June 2013 - 08:39 PM, said:

I just want to point out that credentials are completely unimportant when it comes to the validity of an idea. This is a very common logical fallacy.



tell that to all of the people that place ELO as the metric used to allow intellectual discussion.

#57 NautilusCommand

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 06:33 AM

It seems OP's and my post have not gone unnoticed.
Implying this game isn't a huge grind to the biggest boat in the game.
Plus the stalker looks like a bloody boat too.

#58 OnLashoc

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 06:37 AM

I see stalkers and I lick my chops.

Yesterday was probably the first time I could honestly say I at full health fought a Stalker 1 on 1 him at full health, and died.

Other than that, I kill them just like any other mech. Every mech has it's easy kill spots, you just have to have steady aim and quick reflexes. I say quit bitching and just kill ****.

No I do not own a Stalker, bought one went meh and sold it after 2 or 3 games.

#59 Nicholas Carlyle

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 07:10 AM

View PostStoicblitzer, on 22 June 2013 - 05:58 PM, said:

this forum doesn't even display properly for me right now though I suspect that's IGPs fault. IGPGI


So true, the website is an abomination, the damn background picture bleeds through the forums on half my computers.

I'm honestly tired of PPC's at this point, I'm leveling up my Raven 2X and 4X. We all know how painful that is.

But these 4-6 PPC stalkers just obliterate me with no recourse on my part.

It's annoying.

But the MORE annoying part, is that PGI is going about fixing it the completely wrong way.

I'm truly and utterly at the point where I know for sure, instant convergence is going to kill this game.

Period.

It's not the clans, it's the fact that the clans weapons will all hit one spot.

It needs to be dealt with.

#60 Stat1cVoiD

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 07:15 AM

Why can't most of you guys just understand that we would need no:

- Hardpoint restrictions
- Boating restrictions
- Heat restrictions

... if all the weapons and maps would be balanced.

Please read my other thread, linked in the opening post, for detailed information.





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