471 replies to this topic

[TOGSolid]

Quote

I answered your questions and you tell me that it doesn't matter. I told you that it does matter and your answer is?

That's because you aren't reading what anyone is saying and are just hammering out posts that do nothing but try to apologize for PGI.

All of your attempts to "discuss" things with us have just been you wondering why we're not grateful for what our glorious masters PGI have bestowed upon us and stating that we just need to be far more understanding of what goes into making a video game. Meanwhile you've been ignoring us pointing out examples of how other companies handle these situations in a far more professional manner. You've been ignoring the specific, factual examples of how PGI have clammed up. You've been ignoring everything we're saying and pushing your own uninformed point. You're basically acting like the quintessential PGI apologist.

I've been here since Closed Beta. I used to be far, faaaaaaaaaar more understanding but PGI's behavior as of late has had no excuse. None. You obviously don't post here much so please don't preach to people who have been dealing with this crap on a regular basis.

And for the record, I've been gaming for about 25 years now. I'm not unfamiliar with how game development works. Hell, I even helped work on The Specialists for HL1 (Yeah, TOG stands for That One Guy).

Edited by TOGSolid, 25 June 2013 - 02:06 AM.

[Jestun]

The Cheese, on 24 June 2013 - 10:30 PM, said:

I'm having a tough time accepting that anyone really thinks "It's still in beta" is a passable excuse. The end user (and I use that term in a general sense) doesn't care what tag you put on it. The only thing they care about is whether it works or not.

I'd just like to point out that betas are different to release. The reason certain issues are acceptable during a beta are because it is a work in progress.

That said, the reason it's accepted is because the testers then offer feedback which, combined with metrics mined from the servers, allows the issues to be addressed. If this is not happening (e.g. if the developers make seemingly random changes, use the bare minimum of communication relating to these changes and the thoughts behind them and actively dismiss feedback because their confidential sources have somehow tapped into the SILENT majority) then there is a whole lot less justification for issues.

[Victor Morson]

TOGSolid, on 25 June 2013 - 02:02 AM, said:

I've been here since Closed Beta. I used to be far, faaaaaaaaaar more understanding but PGI's behavior as of late has had no excuse. None. You obviously don't post here much so please don't preach to people who have been dealing with this crap on a regular basis.

It really did used to feel like they listened to us somewhat for a while in closed beta and started descending into madness specifically around the time they installed the insane Trial 'mech system; they closed communication shortly after that. They had a perfectly good way to encourage new players to spend money by simply starting them with 4 'mech bays, as anyone who plays the game for more than a couple weeks is going to want more than that.. but instead decided the best way to keep people playing is to stomp them into the dirt as hard as possible. I still don't get it.

I'd say the only notable time since then they've listened to a thing we've said since then was when they introduced the horrendous P2W consumable system; which they very, very rapidly gave us cbill equivalents without downsides. This was a very good move that totally removed the P2W aspect, but after that, they haven't buckled on a thing.

The balance issues would bother me less if they didn't do insane things like write how "effective" airstrikes are, and recommend using them against light 'mechs to defend points (Whaaaat), and follow it up to ignoring repeated 95% against landslide polls on features like 3rd person.

Everyone claiming it's an issue with their dev team size needs to realize they've got people wasting time on camera systems and stupid alpha strike nerfs that solve nothing instead of fixing this stuff. That's not a size issue, that's misdirection

[Victor Morson]

Jestun, on 25 June 2013 - 02:13 AM, said:

I'd just like to point out that betas are different to release. The reason certain issues are acceptable during a beta are because it is a work in progress.

Nobody has believed this is beta since they started charging for MC and did the final reset. It's a game awaiting an expansion pack more than it is a beta right now in all honesty.

The reason they are waiting for the tag is they want to put in the core features we were promised to have at launch before, I would wager, they introduce the game to Steam and we get a BOATLOAD of new people. At least I can say that is a good idea - let's get this game in good shape before it launches there. It could save MW:O if done right. If it went up like it is now, I bet we'd get almost War Z levels of backlash.

[Jestun]

Victor Morson, on 25 June 2013 - 02:20 AM, said:

Nobody has believed this is beta since they started charging for MC and did the final reset. It's a game awaiting an expansion pack more than it is a beta right now in all honesty.

I have no problems with RMT being tested during a beta test. Better that that testing it with the first orders on launch day.

Quote

The reason they are waiting for the tag is they want to put in the core features we were promised to have at launch before, I would wager, they introduce the game to Steam and we get a BOATLOAD of new people. At least I can say that is a good idea - let's get this game in good shape before it launches there. It could save MW:O if done right. If it went up like it is now, I bet we'd get almost War Z levels of backlash.

/agree.

[Karazyr]

My opinion on this is know, i think PGI is doing the right thing when they ignore the crying on the forum, they don't need to babysit us in order for them to accept our ideas, im sure they read the forums and i cant imagine its a pleasant experience with all of the entitled a-holes around.

most people seem to think that the devs working on MWO are children or something, they are not they know a damn sight more about games development than you, admittedly they are only human and mistakes will be made but patronising them with the 'dear PGI' threads is silly.

and a word to those who stick around even though they dont like the game because it doesnt stick to the 'TT' rules, TT rules don't work in real time, stop thinking they do >.>

[TOGSolid]

Quote

The balance issues would bother me less if they didn't do insane things like write how "effective" airstrikes are, and recommend using them against light 'mechs to defend points (Whaaaat), and follow it up to ignoring repeated 95% against landslide polls on features like 3rd person.

My personal favorite is the latest Pulse Laser snafu. These things were waaaaaaaaaay down on the list of things we were worried about and yet apparently they were worthy of attention for some reason. Meanwhile SRMs and PPCs are both massively out of whack and something a ton of us have been very vocal about.

Quote

My opinion on this is know, i think PGI is doing the right thing when they ignore the crying on the forum, they don't need to babysit us in order for them to accept our ideas, im sure they read the forums and i cant imagine its a pleasant experience with all of the entitled a-holes around.

most people seem to think that the devs working on MWO are children or something, they are not they know a damn sight more about games development than you, admittedly they are only human and mistakes will be made but patronising them with the 'dear PGI' threads is silly.

You must not play many games.

When SOE has better customer interaction than you, SOMETHING IS HORRIBLY WRONG. How PGI is behaving is not how your average professional studio acts. We don't want to be served on a silver platter at our demand, we're just asking not to be treated like something that's just there to milk for money. We're at Defcon Marvel: Heroes right now and that is not a good thing.

Edited by TOGSolid, 25 June 2013 - 02:32 AM.

[Valore]

Victor Morson, on 25 June 2013 - 02:20 AM, said:

The reason they are waiting for the tag is they want to put in the core features we were promised to have at launch before, I would wager, they introduce the game to Steam and we get a BOATLOAD of new people. At least I can say that is a good idea - let's get this game in good shape before it launches there. It could save MW:O if done right. If it went up like it is now, I bet we'd get almost War Z levels of backlash.

I absolutely hope that they're holding off Steam for that exact reason and plan a Steam release eventually. The influx of new players then would be a new lease of life if the game has improved before then. Otherwise like you said, it'll be another horrible War Z like catastrophe. The only consolation is that even right now, PGI has yet to reach the depths of idiocy that the War Z team achieved.

That game, I bought in, saw a few posts made by their devs, and got a refund.

[Jestun]

TOGSolid, on 25 June 2013 - 02:25 AM, said:

My personal favorite is the latest Pulse Laser snafu. These things were waaaaaaaaaay down on the list of things we were worried about and yet apparently they were worthy of attention for some reason. Meanwhile SRMs and PPCs are both massively out of whack and something a ton of us have been very vocal about.

But it's ok... Derppy knows that LPL's were really a major game-breaking issue. After all, PGI know best and they must have nerfed them for a reason!

[Valore]

Jestun, on 25 June 2013 - 02:28 AM, said:

But it's ok... Derppy knows that LPL's were really a major game-breaking issue. After all, PGI know best and they must have nerfed them for a reason!

Alright let's be fair here. LPLs were not nerfed, they were adjusted because they believe PLs in general still need fixing, and this first step was to bring them in line, whatever that means.

That said, same thing was said about missiles, and look where those are today >_<

Edited by Valore, 25 June 2013 - 02:34 AM.

[Jestun]

Valore, on 25 June 2013 - 02:33 AM, said:

Alright let's be fair here. LPLs were not nerfed, they were adjusted because they believe PLs in general still need fixing, and this first step was to bring them in line, whatever that means.

That said, same thing was said about missiles, and look where those are today >_<

Giving PLs anything other than a buff will not bring them in line (unless all other weapons get an even bigger nerf than PLs).

[Thorqemada]

I appeciate your post OP.

Personally MWO lost track the day they started the OB with a non existant "New Player Experience" and gameplay wise the patchday that introduced the horrible binary gameplay of ECM.

Since than the game made technically some progress (some good and needed progress in specific cases) but the gameplay is spiralling around and you wonder what the overarching directive for balancing steps is.

The upcoming Alpha-Strike-Solution will do nothing - any pinpoint damage above 20 is bad to the game imho, any pp damage beyond that should come with exponential increasing penaltys to heat and or convergence (some good ideas float around in the Forums).
20 pp damage is 1xAC20 or 2x PPC or 4xML which is a common setup contrary to 6x ML or 3x PPC which is simply a stock setup boating loadout.
Especially when you want to make Chainfire a bigger part and Alphas a last ditch effort in the meta.

Edited by Thorqemada, 25 June 2013 - 03:28 AM.

[Victor Morson]

Derrpy, on 25 June 2013 - 02:24 AM, said:

most people seem to think that the devs working on MWO are children or something, they are not they know a damn sight more about games development than you, admittedly they are only human and mistakes will be made but patronising them with the 'dear PGI' threads is silly.

Multiplayer has unique challenges, in particular when it comes to balance and keeping a finger on the pulse of the community. That's why there are a ton of dead multiplayer games out there right now... and when the game is only multiplayer, that's very, very, very bad.

I'm saying this less because this isn't "the way I want it", I'm saying this because the way it is... well, it's driving away people in droves and they aren't addressing it.

[Arkatrex]

TOGSolid, on 25 June 2013 - 02:02 AM, said:

That's because you aren't reading what anyone is saying and are just hammering out posts that do nothing but try to apologize for PGI.

All of your attempts to "discuss" things with us have just been you wondering why we're not grateful for what our glorious masters PGI have bestowed upon us and stating that we just need to be far more understanding of what goes into making a video game. Meanwhile you've been ignoring us pointing out examples of how other companies handle these situations in a far more professional manner. You've been ignoring the specific, factual examples of how PGI have clammed up. You've been ignoring everything we're saying and pushing your own uninformed point. You're basically acting like the quintessential PGI apologist.

I've been here since Closed Beta. I used to be far, faaaaaaaaaar more understanding but PGI's behavior as of late has had no excuse. None. You obviously don't post here much so please don't preach to people who have been dealing with this crap on a regular basis.

And for the record, I've been gaming for about 25 years now. I'm not unfamiliar with how game development works. Hell, I even helped work on The Specialists for HL1 (Yeah, TOG stands for That One Guy).

You don't know anything about me. Wow...you've played games for about 25 years..wow...i'm very impressed....not.

Cockmeter approaching:
My first computer was an Apple II, i was playing games since i was five years old. I have a C64, ATARI ST and still a life.
I was a professional gamer in Q3A (MTW / SK) and i'm an IT specialist.

So my job contains network security and coding programs.

Useless to say that nobody is interested in knowing that stuff. Really. And i'm not interested to knows your one. Okay?
Only to clean up the opposing fronts.


Back to topic:
Why you are meaning that you are able to raise a claim against PGI? Are you the superior god of gaming? The Lichking of WoW? The god emperor?

I don't really know what for drugs you taking are. But you can't set a demand for demand for demand for demand³ without giving them a chance to implement it.

That is what i'm telling the whole time. But that's not interesting for somebody.

It's like "When i can get it?" "When it's done!" "GIVE IT TO ME NOW / YESTERDAY YOU PIECE OF SCUM!".
That's the way how the community is talking to PGI / Devs / Admins / Who ever.

Very nice..really.

[Valore]

Arkatrex, on 25 June 2013 - 03:04 AM, said:

It's like "When i can get it?" "When it's done!" "GIVE IT TO ME NOW / YESTERDAY YOU PIECE OF SCUM!".
That's the way how the community is talking to PGI / Devs / Admins / Who ever.

Very nice..really.

But none of us really talk like that, at least not in this thread. The few who do usually aren't taken very seriously.

Now what?

Edited by Valore, 25 June 2013 - 03:15 AM.

[TOGSolid]

Arkatrex, on 25 June 2013 - 03:04 AM, said:

You don't know anything about me. Wow...you've played games for about 25 years..wow...i'm very impressed....not.

Cockmeter approaching:
My first computer was an Apple II, i was playing games since i was five years old. I have a C64, ATARI ST and still a life.
I was a professional gamer in Q3A (MTW / SK) and i'm an IT specialist.

So my job contains network security and coding programs.

Useless to say that nobody is interested in knowing that stuff. Really. And i'm not interested to knows your one. Okay?
Only to clean up the opposing fronts.


Back to topic:
Why you are meaning that you are able to raise a claim against PGI? Are you the superior god of gaming? The Lichking of WoW? The god emperor?

I don't really know what for drugs you taking are. But you can't set a demand for demand for demand for demand³ without giving them a chance to implement it.

That is what i'm telling the whole time. But that's not interesting for somebody.

It's like "When i can get it?" "When it's done!" "GIVE IT TO ME NOW / YESTERDAY YOU PIECE OF SCUM!".
That's the way how the community is talking to PGI / Devs / Admins / Who ever.

Very nice..really.

It's not a cockmeter, it's me letting you know that you can stop trying to talk to me like I don't know **** about video games and their development.

You however, don't post around here regularly meaning you don't know anything about the history of PGI's interaction (even though I've ******* spelled it out to you), and are therefore unqualified to give any sort of opinion on how things are going around here. Judging by your repeating of the same ******** over and over and your refusal to actually register anything we're telling you the only conclusion I can draw is that you are either incapable of understanding English or just refuse to discuss anything that doesn't involve felating PGI.

Valore, on 25 June 2013 - 03:14 AM, said:

But none of us really talk like that, at least not in this thread. The few who do usually aren't taken very seriously.

Now what?

Apparently we need to be grateful that we're even given a forum to post on and the fact that our feedback threads are allowed to exist mean we need to worship our lord PGI and be thankful every day.

Edited by TOGSolid, 25 June 2013 - 03:22 AM.

[Victor Morson]

Arkatrex, on 25 June 2013 - 03:04 AM, said:

It's like "When i can get it?" "When it's done!" "GIVE IT TO ME NOW / YESTERDAY YOU PIECE OF SCUM!".
That's the way how the community is talking to PGI / Devs / Admins / Who ever.

But that's not what's happening here at all.

This has more to do with the game going further and further off the rails, and the desire of most of us to see it actually still running next year. At least my intentions are to try to shake some sense into them because they are gleefully driving off a cliff here.

Odds are they will ignore the overwhelming response this thread has gotten and then claim forum members aren't worth worrying about because we're a small percentage, ignoring the fact that of that percentage we have a wide cross-section of skill, experience and mindsets. We're really a microcosm of the community as a whole.

Also, alarmingly, I've started recognizing about half the people I'm running into in-game from these threads. Either we're just really close in ELO, or the forum members are making up more of the community than they'd like to admit.

[TOGSolid]

Victor Morson, on 25 June 2013 - 03:24 AM, said:

But that's not what's happening here at all.

This has more to do with the game going further and further off the rails, and the desire of most of us to see it actually still running next year. At least my intentions are to try to shake some sense into them because they are gleefully driving off a cliff here.

Odds are they will ignore the overwhelming response this thread has gotten and then claim forum members aren't worth worrying about because we're a small percentage, ignoring the fact that of that percentage we have a wide cross-section of skill, experience and mindsets. We're really a microcosm of the community as a whole.

Also, alarmingly, I've started recognizing about half the people I'm running into in-game from these threads. Either we're just really close in ELO, or the forum members are making up more of the community than they'd like to admit.

It could also just be a matter of certain people being more recognizable j

Victor Morson, on 25 June 2013 - 03:24 AM, said:

But that's not what's happening here at all.

This has more to do with the game going further and further off the rails, and the desire of most of us to see it actually still running next year. At least my intentions are to try to shake some sense into them because they are gleefully driving off a cliff here.

Odds are they will ignore the overwhelming response this thread has gotten and then claim forum members aren't worth worrying about because we're a small percentage, ignoring the fact that of that percentage we have a wide cross-section of skill, experience and mindsets. We're really a microcosm of the community as a whole.

Also, alarmingly, I've started recognizing about half the people I'm running into in-game from these threads. Either we're just really close in ELO, or the forum members are making up more of the community than they'd like to admit.

It's also a matter of certain members being more recognizable because we post a lot and those posts tend to get attention. When you notice them on the scoreboard it's like "hey, I remember that guy!" The people who post well also tend to play well which means we run into each other more regularly. I wouldn't worry about it too much. Now, if game after game you're seeing the same people, then yeah, there's a problem.

[The Cheese]

Jestun, on 25 June 2013 - 02:13 AM, said:

I'd just like to point out that betas are different to release. The reason certain issues are acceptable during a beta are because it is a work in progress.

That said, the reason it's accepted is because the testers then offer feedback which, combined with metrics mined from the servers, allows the issues to be addressed. If this is not happening (e.g. if the developers make seemingly random changes, use the bare minimum of communication relating to these changes and the thoughts behind them and actively dismiss feedback because their confidential sources have somehow tapped into the SILENT majority) then there is a whole lot less justification for issues.

My point was more that it really doesn't matter whether it's called beta or release, nor what either of those tags entail. People just want to play the game.

[MustrumRidcully]

Valore, on 25 June 2013 - 03:14 AM, said:

But none of us really talk like that, at least not in this thread. The few who do usually aren't taken very seriously.

Now what?

I am sure we'll find another strawman.