119 replies to this topic

[RG Notch]

Vrbas, on 25 June 2013 - 10:12 AM, said:

And that's a bad thing? Man, I would take that over this PPC/Gauss Heavy Warrior Online ANY day.

Vrbas, on 25 June 2013 - 10:58 AM, said:

I'm not really sure what you're getting at. I'm not advocating overpowering SRMs, but the "adapt" strategy only goes so far when things are this far out of balance; as I said before when it finally comes down to "join them or die", things are little out of whack. There is no changing strategy or evolving, there's only "do what everyone else is doing"... and thus we have the one-dimensional game that is MWO right now.

Something needs to happen to shift the table to a more equilibrium state, to give every mech, build, chasis, variant a place. I'm not entirely sure buffing SRMs would even do that, but it's something that came to mind when months back PGI said "we will revisit this SRM nerf". The game is in solid favor of Heavy/Assault and Lights right now. I think that is an issue, do you not?

As I said, I liked it when you were honest in that first post. Now backpedal more to look like you're all for balance. Just be careful you don't go over the handlebars contorting.

[MaddMaxx]

MustrumRidcully, on 25 June 2013 - 10:23 AM, said:

2 AC/20 deal 40 damage to a single hit location.

6 SRM6s would deal 70 damage to multiple hit locations. If it's just two, it might work out to be better than the Dual AC/20, but if it's three or two and a few miss, then it's worse. No, it doesn't have to deal 40 damage to one location and 40 damage to another location to be viable - but 40 damage to one location do not have the same worth as 20 damage to two locations. You don'T weaken a mech by removing two hit locations to half hit points. You weaken them by destroying one location.

Let's, for giggles, assume I drive a 6 x SRM6 @2.0 (70pt.), and you drive a AC40. We both have similar range brackets and as luck will have it, we will both have to fight it out "Long" range as max this Match. Drop off reduces values enough to make exact data harder to compute.

Quote

AC20 - minRange="0" longRange="270.0" maxRange="810" "cooldown=4" tons="14"

Quote

SRM6 - minRange="0" longRange="270.0" maxRange="270.0" "cooldown=4" tons="3"

Now do a "who gets the first shot in" analysis. That is how most fights are determined, if both Mechs are fresh and both pilots can hit their target with even somewhat regular frequency.

I would pit the 70 pointer with some spread, over the all or nothing 40 pt'r in most outcomes. Yes your 40 will do its damage, but if your 80 doesn't trash my Mech, my 140 will surely reduce yours to near rubble, all in the first 8 seconds.

This is the exact issue at hand right now. Mechs getting killed in 2-3 shots. Adding another unit to the 2-3 shot pool solves nothing, but allows other to play that game. Apparently, many already don't like that game play model. Why would adding to it, ever be seen as beneficial?

Edited by MaddMaxx, 25 June 2013 - 11:05 AM.

[Kaldor]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 25 June 2013 - 10:56 AM, said:

id rather see ppcs nurfed than srms buffed. srms dont seem that bad to me right now, we need to keep damage down not push it up again.

And AC40 builds will still reign supreme, so then 2 mech variants will be competitive. We need SRMs to come back and do some damage. Just nerfing PPCs only makes ballistics more powerful.

MaddMaxx, on 25 June 2013 - 10:49 AM, said:

Who let that child in here. We can't discuss anything when all one can hear is the cries of the Daycare inhabitants ffs. As noted by another player. "We" asked that the SRM 90 point Alpha (+ crazy splash) be removed, or at least toned down. The notion of range being the great decider between AC40 and an SRM @70 or 90 is moot when you start getting killed by them. We have history as our guide on that one. You want both "Whine and Cheese", Then just allow the SRM to get back to 2.5 and give it a decent flight path/spread. The PPC whiners will look simply docile in comparison.

Who was the "we" you are talking about. There was absolutely no warning to the players SRMs were going to get gutted if i remember right.

The outcry about the current meta is far greater than anything I remember seeing back in the heyday of the SplatCat. Your also forgetting the AC40 builds are pinpoint, missile builds generally hit at least 2 hit boxes.

Daycare, lol.

[JayVrb]

RG Notch, on 25 June 2013 - 11:03 AM, said:

As I said, I liked it when you were honest in that first post. Now backpedal more to look like you're all for balance. Just be careful you don't go over the handlebars contorting.

The point I was trying to make was that of a "lesser of two evils"... since balance really isn't in PGI's playbook lately. After a major change, one weapon or group of weapons emerges on top and becomes the new meta, OP, pew pew. The hint of realism in my posts stems from my hopeless dreaming that there will be a balance of weapons in the near future. However, since I dream in colors, I have to bring myself down to reality sometimes.

**EDIT** That reality being there won't be a balance, so you better choose a side now.

Edited by Vrbas, 25 June 2013 - 11:13 AM.

[MaddMaxx]

Kaldor, on 25 June 2013 - 11:09 AM, said:

And AC40 builds will still reign supreme, so then 2 mech variants will be competitive. We need SRMs to come back and do some damage. Just nerfing PPCs only makes ballistics more powerful.

Who was the "we" you are talking about. There was absolutely no warning to the players SRMs were going to get gutted if i remember right.

The outcry about the current meta is far greater than anything I remember seeing back in the heyday of the SplatCat. Your also forgetting the AC40 builds are pinpoint, missile builds generally hit at least 2 hit boxes.

Daycare, lol.

When one of those 2 is your rear CT, does it really matter...

You really don't remember the A1 outcries?

[3rdworld]

MaddMaxx, on 25 June 2013 - 11:05 AM, said:

This is the exact issue at hand right now. Mechs getting killed in 2-3 shots. Adding another unit to the 2-3 shot pool solves nothing, but allows other to play that game. Apparently, many already don't like that game play model. Why would adding to it, ever be seen as beneficial?

Actually it solves a ton of issues.

Makes mediums useful. Gives brawlers more options. Can be put on a mech in sufficient numbers to actually kill a sniper once you close.

Talking about how amazing the easiest mech to disarm or headshot will be, doesn't hold much weight to me.

[Kunae]

MaddMaxx, on 25 June 2013 - 11:14 AM, said:

When one of those 2 is your rear CT, does it really matter... You really don't remember the A1 outcries?

A1's were only an annoyance, unless they were able to "sneak" up on you.

Other than that, any competent player would burn them down before they were able to do too much damage. (Hint: Lights and snipers/LRMs are your friends.)

[A banana in the tailpipe]

SRMs are in such a bad spot I've actually gone back to SSRMs for now and I hate anything easymode.

Edited by lockwoodx, 25 June 2013 - 11:18 AM.

[Kunae]

lockwoodx, on 25 June 2013 - 11:18 AM, said:

SRMs are in such a bad spot I've actually gone back to SSRMs for now and I hate anything easymode.

Yep. It's sad when an SSRM2 can do more consistent damage than an SRM6.

[Kaldor]

MaddMaxx, on 25 June 2013 - 11:14 AM, said:

When one of those 2 is your rear CT, does it really matter... You really don't remember the A1 outcries?

With the advent of seismic (read: wallhack) module if you let someone sneak up on your backside, then you are a bad. Even back then if you seen an A1 inside of 300m you knew it was either a StreakCat or SplatCat. Take appropriate action from there.

And yeah, I seen alot of people crying about it. But chances are they are also the guys that run around in 3X zoom, trying to play LRM boater or super sniper, and not freaking paying attention to the game around them. They deserve to be farmed. And yes, that comment was rather prickish, but I stand by it.

[Roland]

Kaldor, on 25 June 2013 - 11:09 AM, said:

Who was the "we" you are talking about. There was absolutely no warning to the players SRMs were going to get gutted if i remember right.

I think you remember incorrectly.

As soon as it was conclusively proven that SRM's were in fact doing upwards of 7 times their listed damage per missile, depending on the target, it was pretty obvious that they were going to be nerfed.

I'm curious as to how many people actually realize that SRM's were totally broken before. They're never going to be that strong again, because they were way stronger than they were ever meant to be, due to bugs with splash damage.

You had splatcats who were firing a volley of 36 missiles, all of which were doing between 5 and 15 damage to the target... you were doing, in some cases, multiple HUNDREDS of points of damage, in a single volley.

Didn't you ever shoot at a target with a splatcat, and just have the mech totally vaporize? Didn't that seem strange to you?

[MaddMaxx]

Vrbas, on 25 June 2013 - 11:10 AM, said:

The point I was trying to make was that of a "lesser of two evils"... since balance really isn't in PGI's playbook lately. After a major change, one weapon or group of weapons emerges on top and becomes the new meta, OP, pew pew. The hint of realism in my posts stems from my hopeless dreaming that there will be a balance of weapons in the near future. However, since I dream in colors, I have to bring myself down to reality sometimes.

**EDIT** That reality being there won't be a balance, so you better choose a side now.

The reason true "balance" will never truly materialize is 2 fold. Mechs with various load-out options and weapons that have different damage values (+ added make no sense range increases)

How is a 10 pt weapon ever to be as good as a 20 pt'r? If one has more range perhaps. Oops, turns out range is a VERY large factor that overcomes almost all the other drawbacks those weapons are supposed to have (they should be quite HOT) despite that they only deliver 50% of the damage of the 20pt'r.

Now let's look at the Mechs. Some, in certain weight classes, can carry up to as many as 5-6 10pt weapons and that comes with great range as well, marvel eh. Others, can carry only 2 the same, but they are 20 pt'rs, Oops they need ammo and they need to close on the 50-60 pt'r to be effective. Damn.

In the end, Balance will simply have to be something that everyone can live with. As that will never happen, balance, by definition, is likely not even a true possibility.

[JayVrb]

Kunae, on 25 June 2013 - 11:17 AM, said:

A1's were only an annoyance, unless they were able to "sneak" up on you.

Other than that, any competent player would burn them down before they were able to do too much damage. (Hint: Lights and snipers/LRMs are your friends.)

I think that's the biggest difference between these two metas (Splat Cats and PPCyndrome)... if you really call Splat Cats a meta all in its own. SRM heavy builds could get shredded before they got within viable range, unless you just lacked situational awareness. Right now, unless you're stupid fast (and small) or have another sniper rifle to counter, there's little diversity on the field and even less of a chance for you to compete w/o joining one of those groups.

I just think it's done WONDERS to the mech diversity out there... that is to say it's robbed the battlefield of diverse builds. If SRMs were brought back to a usable state, I think we'd see a more multidimensional game. Ballistics seem fine to me, LRMs are doable, lasers are managed quite well... right now there COULDN'T be more of a divide between PPC's and SRMs as far as "well which are you gonna take into battle w/ you?"

[Stoicblitzer]

they forgot srm damage while they were developing project phoenix. now that the money grabbing is done, they can refocus on the gameplay...maybe..

[Xie Belvoule]

MaddMaxx, on 25 June 2013 - 11:14 AM, said:

When one of those 2 is your rear CT, does it really matter...

You really don't remember the A1 outcries?

I do, they largely involved people crying about a splatcat sneaking up on them and catching them off guard. Which is now rendered impossible do to seismic. So...yeah...you kinda don't have a leg to stand on.

[PanzerMagier]

Vrbas, on 24 June 2013 - 08:11 PM, said:

SO HAVE THEY JUST FORGOTTEN ABOUT SRM DAMAGE?

yes they have. Their brains are too busy with project phoenix and my now-empty wallet. :'( I'm such a horrible person.

[LordBraxton]

my medium mechs are willing to perform exotic and bizarre sexual favors for an SRM buff

and so am I

[A banana in the tailpipe]

Xie Belvoule, on 25 June 2013 - 11:27 AM, said:

I do, they largely involved people crying about a splatcat sneaking up on them and catching them off guard. Which is now rendered impossible do to seismic. So...yeah...you kinda don't have a leg to stand on.

Seismic is only an issue if you take this game too seriously. Pugs rarely use them.

[Xie Belvoule]

PanzerMagier, on 25 June 2013 - 11:28 AM, said:

yes they have. Their brains are too busy with project phoenix and my now-empty wallet. :'( I'm such a horrible person.

WTH is project Phoenix?

[Kunae]

lockwoodx, on 25 June 2013 - 11:31 AM, said:

Seismic is only an issue if you take this game too seriously. Pugs rarely use them.

80% of pugs use them, from my observations. Only newbies who can't afford them yet, don't have them.