387 replies to this topic

[DocBach]

While I believe that torso weapons should converge as in the lore the mounts have their own actuators to make adjustments for shots - I do believe that lasers, or at least pulse lasers need to have some sort of benefit of either quicker or tighter convergence to make up for the fact that they do damage over time rather to one single location.

[p00k]

besides being reminiscent of campfest fps mechanics like accuracy bonuses for going prone, i think it's safe to say any significant overhaul of aiming mechanics will never happen. pgi has too many things they've already promised, and a track record of being unable to deliver. they're some 6months and counting behind on the clan invasion, and some 8 and counting on community warfare. they've just promised 12 mechs by october 15th on top of the previously announced releases, as well as a few maps and game balance changes. not to mention 12v12 and ui2.0

i'm a fan of doing things right in the first place as opposed to bandaid patch after bandaid patch, but realistically that's all we're gonna get. to which end, buffing srm damage is probably the single most needed adjustment that they've needed to do since...well, since they nerfed srm damage. it was a stupid nerf that was only warranted because of incompetence at coding splash damage which was unnecessary in the first place

probably the second biggest thing would be dropping seismic radius. no, don't worry about lights vs meds vs hvys and different ranges for each. just across the board, cut it in half. 200m for advanced, 100m for basic. because, quite simply, knowing when the enemy is 400m away and knowing how they're moving largely kills brawling just as much as crappy srms do. snipers don't need to fear brawlers when they have 400m warning. 200m is a different story though

the third thing i would do is raise the engine cap for lights and mediums. give them closing power. and again, a relatively simple change to what was supposed to be a temporary formula for engine cap anyways (remember how pgi said they were going to be continually evaluating if a different base engine rating multiplier would be warranted?)

i'd like to see an overhaul of the heat system to favor chain firing and give dps builds a boost over group fire/alpha builds, by making heat dissipation logarithmically less efficient when your heat spikes up higher (rather than some arbitrary heat penalty when X weapons of one type are fired in Y seconds). not really hard to code, but is more work than i know pgi will commit to it (and yet they waste effort coding the aforementioned idiotic heat penalty system). on principle i'd prefer using heat to offset alphas rather than handicapping marksmanship. but either way, it won't happen. pgi has decided to go with a bumfucking stupid option, and their track record for rolling back their screwups is pretty terrible. meaning this idiotic system will be here to stay. so let's make the best of it and at least bring back brawling, even if it's still reliant on alphas

[EchoMike]

Hey Doc, Well thought-out. I always thought that MWO should have some sort of WoT aiming mechanic to cut down on the pin-point-high-alpha damage problem. I believe your idea may be simpler to implement than Homeless Bill's, either way, they should seriously consider programming such a mechanic. For the love of Pete PGI, please listen to these rational, logical ideas.... GIVE US THE OPPORTUNITY TO TEST THEM!

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Well thought out, constructive and informative.

My 2 issues, and my reason for saying no.

1) By giving penalties for moving and running you promote static camping based gameplay, because people want the best accuracy they can get, this is just a solution that will lead to another problem.

2), I fear such a system with current double armor will lead us into Lights reverting to their combat magician roles, that they should not be filling, the proposed system will make it more complex and frustrating for new players, when little tiny light makes are indestructible..

I prefer Homeless Bills suggestion alot more.

However we have to face facts, both systems or any system of change to how aiming is done in game is now far too late and far too much of a resource undertaking that PGI won't be willing to take.

[soarra]

I fully agree with this post. and there should be penalties when you are moving. Try firing a gun while running at max speed..

[Sigismund]

I support this idea with all my might, this is something I've wanted to exist since Mechwarrior 2. I really want there to be a Mechwarrior game that really captures the essence of the battlemech. Giant, highly mobile, armed to the teeth and so tenacious and resourceful that it continues crawling after you as a legless torso with one arm and a medium laser. With convergence as it as now I'd be better off riding a tank, their front armour is better than CT armour anyway.

[DocBach]

DV McKenna, on 01 July 2013 - 01:14 AM, said:

Well thought out, constructive and informative.

My 2 issues, and my reason for saying no.

1) By giving penalties for moving and running you promote static camping based gameplay, because people want the best accuracy they can get, this is just a solution that will lead to another problem.

2), I fear such a system with current double armor will lead us into Lights reverting to their combat magician roles, that they should not be filling, the proposed system will make it more complex and frustrating for new players, when little tiny light makes are indestructible..

I prefer Homeless Bills suggestion alot more.

However we have to face facts, both systems or any system of change to how aiming is done in game is now far too late and far too much of a resource undertaking that PGI won't be willing to take.

Because speed of the target is also a factor in how quickly the reticle converges, someone who sits and camps will have to expose himself to enemy fire for much longer against a dynamic enemy, while allowing their reticle to converge quicker against them.

[PanzerMagier]

The only issue with this solution is that if PGI wants to implement it, they'll have to rip out the ingame hud system, or at least the reticle system. Right now it's pretty damn resource intensive, I doubt they'll be able to code this in without sucking up even more resources.

[DocBach]

the standard reticule would still remain for single fire systems - the additional reticle would only be used for group fire.

[Unbound Inferno]

DocBach, on 25 June 2013 - 07:27 AM, said:

(thank you Unbound Inferno for creating the original reticle graphic)

Thank you for the credit, but I have to be honest, it wasn't me.

I believe I was the first to argue that reticle style, someone else was kind enough to post the picture - God forbid I can't recall who - and I just re-copied the link over time while pressing the issue for something like this.

Phenomenal write-up by the way, and remarkably well-done to explain the idea.

Edited by Unbound Inferno, 01 July 2013 - 07:13 AM.

[Trauglodyte]

I like the concept of the reticle change. I would ask this, though:

Would it not simply be easier to implement the convergence penalties that they added to JJs to be applied to your mech basesd on movement speed and heat?

If our problem is that all of this damage is being put in one spot, why not make it harder for all weapons to hit in the same spot based on the environmental elements of which we should be dealing? Terrain changes causes you to miss, sometimes, simply because of target/firer elevation changes. Even a slight bump can toss off a salvo. But I shouldn't be as accurate going 150kph as I am when I'm standing still. And if the TT game upon which MW:O is based had to-hit penalties based on how hot you were because the mech heat was cooking the pilot, why is that not applied?

I guess I'm just concerned with things getting too complicated when you can simply say:

• the faster you go, the harder it is to hit someone
  
• the hotter you are, the harder it is to hit someone
  
• arm mounted weapons should be harder to utilize while moving simply because it is yet another system upon which needs additional stabalization

All of that is included in your reticle concept, of course, so I'm in full agreement.

[EchoMike]

Bumping this because it needs to be bumped. Regards, your friendly neighbourhood Echo((echo))Mike.

[Grand Ayatollah Kerensky]

Mechwarrior has always been an FPS "skinned with lore." The sooner the devs unshackle themselves from tabletop, the sooner balance will improve.

[Prezimonto]

This is a brilliantly laid out description of what should be done with convergence.

It's simple and intuitive (a new player can see exactly what's happening), it does not provide a random cone of fire(preserving the competitive side of the game), it adds depth to play and load out without adding significant complexity over what we currently have.

Excellent!

Edited by Prezimonto, 01 July 2013 - 11:12 AM.

[Unbound Inferno]

Trauglodyte, on 01 July 2013 - 10:09 AM, said:

I like the concept of the reticle change. I would ask this, though:

Would it not simply be easier to implement the convergence penalties that they added to JJs to be applied to your mech basesd on movement speed and heat?

If our problem is that all of this damage is being put in one spot, why not make it harder for all weapons to hit in the same spot based on the environmental elements of which we should be dealing? Terrain changes causes you to miss, sometimes, simply because of target/firer elevation changes. Even a slight bump can toss off a salvo. But I shouldn't be as accurate going 150kph as I am when I'm standing still. And if the TT game upon which MW:O is based had to-hit penalties based on how hot you were because the mech heat was cooking the pilot, why is that not applied?

I guess I'm just concerned with things getting too complicated when you can simply say:

• the faster you go, the harder it is to hit someone
  
• the hotter you are, the harder it is to hit someone
  
• arm mounted weapons should be harder to utilize while moving simply because it is yet another system upon which needs additional stabalization

All of that is included in your reticle concept, of course, so I'm in full agreement.

No, not in the same fashion.

The JJ penalties are tied directly into that horrendously shaking reticle - do you want to be walking and have that aiming point randomly move around the faster you go? I would think that it would be far from the best intention of this game and really throw off too many of the playerbase to be worth it.

[TheBossHammer]

I love this idea, but I would add in one thing: The convergence time should increase when under fire from smaller weapons, and larger weapons should blow the convergence completely out. If you get hit with an AC/20 at close range, your convergence should disappear completely, and if some guy peppers you with MG's, your weapons should take a lot longer to fully converge. It's similar to what I suggested a few days ago, but your idea would work better as long as getting hit still has an effect.

[AlixX]

I would like this! The pinpoint damage system we have now is getting very dull atm.

PGI take note!

[DeadlyNerd]

A question to everyone who agreed to this.

How will you react when you miss a perfectly lined up shot just cause the system forced non convergence? Back here and whine?

[Homeless Bill]

I really hope PGI shows up to at least one of our threads to say, "No." =P

[Roland]

DeadlyNerd, on 01 July 2013 - 11:48 AM, said:

A question to everyone who agreed to this.

How will you react when you miss a perfectly lined up shot just cause the system forced non convergence? Back here and whine?

It would appear that under this system, a perfectly lined up shot would not miss, and would go exactly where you are aiming.